Preatty sure yes.Are we sure that the Soviet T-72A uses the same armor package as its export counterpart ; the T-72M1 ?
T-72M1 armour layout:
turret:
Protection for 0. degree (530mm LOS):
410-420mm RHA vs APFSDS
500mm RAH vs HEAT
for 30. degree protection is mucht smaller of course...
The Ukraine crisis is pushing European governments to review the role of the weapon that dominated Cold War defenses as the strength of Russian ground forces stirs political concerns: the battle tank.
Well, more or less we should notic the whole picture not only one puzzle ;-) Maybe it was primitive but 200mm cast steel + 130mm kvartz + 200mm cast steel give circa:Finally, my vision of the kvartz, sand rods, sandbar (whatever you call it) was not too far from the reality.
IMHO, it's a very primitive but cheap composite armor package. Even the BDD armor seems to be more sophisticated.
I expected more from the Soviet engineering, especially for the T-80B which is finally fitted with the same armor package as the T-72A.
This was my evening rant.
Sorry to destory your dreams, but that the XM1/M1 Abrams was designed with protection against 115 mm APFSDS "only" has been confirmed by two other sources. You should also read the whole chapter in Hunnicutt's book. The TACOM studies served as base of the requirements for the XM1 tank; the studies with spaced/simple laminate armour weren't able to meet the weight requirements. LK 10382 is from March 1973, in early July 1973 the Americans visited the Chobham facilities to gain full access to Burlington armour and in January 1974 both GM and Chrysler had their prototypes redesigned with Chobham armour. Pretty short time for making completely knew requirements...I would be carefull about speculating about what protection initial "Burlington" variants offered.
Actually I read again Richard P. Hunnicutt book Abrams A History Of The American Main Battle Tank volume 2 and found something interesting. Hunnicutt writes about XM1 protection requirements for the front against 115mm APFSDS from 800m, but not in the context of "Burlington" special armor! This requirement actually comes from pre "Burlington" use! The whole requirement is based on protection capabilities of earlier special armor designs made by Ballistic Research Laboratory for initial vehicle concepts like LK 10322 so even pre real XM1 program.
The real requirements for XM1/M1 protection with "Burlington" armor package is actually classified and have nothing to do with pre XM1 vehicle concepts after MBT-70 and XM803 cancellation.
Actually vehicle concepts like LK 10322 were considered to also have simple spaced armor and not special armor. So this is where the story about ~400mm vs APFSDS requirement comes from, but have nothing in common with the XM1/M1 and it's series manufactured "Burlington" armor.
Keep this in mind, and this actually shows how important is to carefully read sources.
Read again Hunnicutt's book. It is very clearly written there about requirements prior transfer of technology of the "Burlington" armor to the US and integration of it with the final XM1 prototypes. There is nothing about protection levels required or achieved after this.Sorry to destory your dreams, but that the XM1/M1 Abrams was designed with protection against 115 mm APFSDS "only" has been confirmed by two other sources. You should also read the whole chapter in Hunnicutt's book. The TACOM studies served as base of the requirements for the XM1 tank; the studies with spaced/simple laminate armour weren't able to meet the weight requirements. LK 10382 is from March 1973, in early July 1973 the Americans visited the Chobham facilities to gain full access to Burlington armour and in January 1974 both GM and Chrysler had their prototypes redesigned with Chobham armour. Pretty short time for making completely knew requirements...
Chobham was adopted because it was able to meet the weight requirements, which was impossible for even the last TACOM study LK 10382 (planned was 58 tons, but more than 60 tons weight were needed to reach the protection level) - even for this the LK 10382 had to make huge cuts (less hull armour, only 300 gallons of fuel, smaller turret ring diameter, shorter hull) which all are not found on the XM1 with Burlington armour.
Exactly. Hunnicutt, one of the authors who does mention every single detail in his book, forgot to mention that the protection levels were increased.It is very clearly written there about requirements prior transfer of technology of the "Burlington" armor to the US and integration of it with the final XM1 prototypes. There is nothing about protection levels required or achieved after this.
Yes, the logical conclusion is very clear. Please take of your M1 Abrams fanboy badge for a moment and think about it logically:Of course you have full right to believe in whatever you wish to believe, but the logical conclusion is very clear.
Modifiying the protection requirements means a complete redesign of the vehicle. Adopting the U.S. requirements for protection took more thna a year for the Leopard 2 despite the turret T14 already meeting them.Oh and by the way, for you this is short time to modify (not create new) requirements? You won't believe how quickly requirements can be modified.
Or he could not mention it. I hope you understand that when you work very closely on your book to the army or goverment sources, you can't say about everything. Look at Marsh Gelbart books, he knows a lot of classified stuff about Merkava, which does not mean he will share this knowledge in his books, simply because he have agreement with Israelis, he can know more, but he can't share.Exactly. Hunnicutt, one of the authors who does mention every single detail in his book, forgot to mention that the protection levels were increased.
Call me a fanboy once more and I end any discussion with you.Yes, the logical conclusion is very clear. Please take of your M1 Abrams fanboy badge for a moment and think about it logically:
Yes, because I don't know, neither do you, efficency of "Burlington" armor variant used in original M1, it's all classified, but not immposible.Please compare LK 10382 concept to the serial tank: The Lk 10382 carries 205 gallons (776 l) less fuel, it does have a two inch smaller turret diameter, it has reduced hull armour not meeting the protection requirements, it doesn't have isolated ammo stowage, carries a reduced amount of main gun ammunition, it doesn't have armoured side skirts (or any at all) and has nearly no turret bustle. And you want to suggest that the weight savings from using Burlington composite armour were all used to increase armour protection...
And M1's weight increased over original requirements for new tank weight.The LK 10382 concept was designed to meet very strict weight limits which were technological impossible, so the concept was cut-down on a large number of features (and still not able to meet the requirements). After visiting the Chobham facilities to gain full access to Burlington armour, the XM1 was redesgined and the freed up weight was used to replace all cut-down features with fully-fledged ones.
Chieftain uses heavier suspension than M1. To compare vehicles through weight you need to take in to account all it's components. Oh and one more thing, Chieftain Mk5/2 have additional special armor over hull sides.The Brittons designed the Chieftain Mk 5/2 tank with a slightly higher protection requirement (frontal armour vs 115 mm APFSDS from 200 m distance). The shell made of Aluminium instead of steel in order to save several tons of weight, while the tank was considerable smaller than the XM1 and used lighter components. Still the calculated the weight of the Chieftain Mk 5/2 tank to be above the weight of the XM1 prototypes.
The 125mm guns at that time had comparable anti armor eficency as 115mm.Against what should the protection be designed in 1974? The T-72 and the T-64A were unknown to Western intelligence, so the 115 mm gun was the most potent threat known to NATO. The TACOM studies served as base for the Army's requirements and not as a cheap alternative based on lower requirement.
Yeah, right, as far as I can see, most of so called "speculations" done by me end up as accurate or very close to reality observations.Your claims that the armour protection was increased is mere speculation without any sources or facts supporting it. In the same way your claims that all other authors stating that the XM1's armour was designed vs 115 mm APFSDS might have used outdated sources is mere speculation without any sources or facts supporting it.
You obviously never had any closer experience with military requirements and how quickly these can be modified.Modifiying the protection requirements means a complete redesign of the vehicle. Adopting the U.S. requirements for protection took more thna a year for the Leopard 2 despite the turret T14 already meeting them.
He could have stated that the armour was increased to classified levels, just like pretty much all other authors write about armour protection increasements. He didn't wrote anything about thicker or better armour. By your logic, we also could say that the protection requirements could have been decreased, because he doesn't write anything about them :thumb:Or he could not mention it. I hope you understand that when you work very closely on your book to the army or goverment sources, you can't say about everything.
The M1's weight was not increased over the projected weight of the LK 10379 and LK 10382. Also the XM1 prototypes of 1975 (after Chobham was adopted) were still in the weight limits.And M1's weight increased over original requirements for new tank weight.
Yes, which weighed as much as 36 mm RHA, while the hull side at crew compartment was made of 50 mm Aluminium. This is weight equivalent to 53 mm RHA... or in other words as heavy as the side armour of the Leopard 1 (45 mm RHA at 40° at the sponsons, 35 mm RHA + 12 mm RHA skirts at the hull side).Oh and one more thing, Chieftain Mk5/2 have additional special armor over hull sides.
But the 3BM28 has no impact on the M1 Abrams development. Burlington was adopted in 1974, the weight limit for the XM1 dates back to the TACOM from 1972/1973 and was still valid during the joint American-German evaluation of 1976. The M1 Abrams production started in 1978.The 125mm guns at that time had comparable anti armor eficency as 115mm.
3BM28 115mm APFSDS from 1978 have comparable penetration capability to 3BM22 125mm APFSDS from 1976, which was main APFSDS type used by the Soviet Army even trhough the 1980's.
Source?Preatty much the basic M1 was well proteced at the front against both 115mm smoothbore and 125mm smoothbore even up to 1985, and after 1985 M1IP and basic M1A1 were still preatty much invurnable to the 125mm APFSDS ammo used by Soviets back then.
Source? And how do you explain the other authors saying that the M1 Abrams was designed for this goal? Are they all dumb?So yeah, talking that M1's armor was good enough only to protect against 115mm APFSDS from 800mm is a nonsense.
No.Yeah, right, as far as I can see, most of so called "speculations" done by me end up as accurate or very close to reality observations.
I have been working in industry - changing the requirements takes one meeting, but getting the requirements to work properly takes a lot of times. I don't think that cars need much more time than tanks in this regard.You obviously never had any closer experience with military requirements and how quickly these can be modified.
Notice that these changes do not include improved armour or higher armour protection, but crew survivability?Oh and BTW, actually Hunnicutt mentions that during M1 development, survivability was somehow enhanced by changes to the design. It was during FSED phase of development program, so we can assume that during development, there were constant changes to the vehicle design, and we can actually seen this between early prototypes and both FSED prototypes.
Yes, the possibility is the same.He could have stated that the armour was increased to classified levels, just like pretty much all other authors write about armour protection increasements. He didn't wrote anything about thicker or better armour. By your logic, we also could say that the protection requirements could have been decreased, because he doesn't write anything about them
It was increased over some proposed configurations.The M1's weight was not increased over the projected weight of the LK 10379 and LK 10382. Also the XM1 prototypes of 1975 (after Chobham was adopted) were still in the weight limits.
Add to this the basic hull sides, + suspension, + rest of addon armor, + rest of base armor. It was vehicle with many heavy components.Yes, which weighed as much as 36 mm RHA, while the hull side at crew compartment was made of 50 mm Aluminium. This is weight equivalent to 53 mm RHA... or in other words as heavy as the side armour of the Leopard 1 (45 mm RHA at 40° at the sponsons, 35 mm RHA + 12 mm RHA skirts at the hull side).
First thing is, that we do not know which variant of "Burlington" armor was inducted in to service in the end, development was very rapid and changes were fluid. And M1's production started in 1979 after it was inducted in to service and standarized, this when you start mass production, do not count to this LIRP variants or pre series information series for armed forces, as changes still might occur between them and series versions.But the 3BM28 has no impact on the M1 Abrams development. Burlington was adopted in 1974, the weight limit for the XM1 dates back to the TACOM from 1972/1973 and was still valid during the joint American-German evaluation of 1976. The M1 Abrams production started in 1978.
The 3BM-28 was also not very wide spread; you are taking the rarest 115 mm APFSDS and say "that's what the Abrams was designed against"!
Look at penetration capabilities of these types of ammunition, conclusion is very obvious.Source?
Dumb? No, but they might not have access to all informations.Source? And how do you explain the other authors saying that the M1 Abrams was designed for this goal? Are they all dumb?
To the contrary.
And I am very close to military, and I know how quickly requirements can change simply because new variables appears, or during simple tests something went different than anticipated.I have been working in industry - changing the requirements takes one meeting, but getting the requirements to work properly takes a lot of times. I don't think that cars need much more time than tanks in this regard.
Read again, there is clearly written: Chrysler made a number of additional changes to enhance the survivability of their candidate and to reduce the cost. The arrangement of the special armor was modified and a special armor gun shield replaced the casting on the earlier proposal.Notice that these changes do not include improved armour or higher armour protection, but crew survivability?
The basic hull sides are already included (50 mm Aluminium). The Chieftain Mk 5/2 was physically much smaller (hull and turret length, height), carried much less fuel and ammunition and . The heavy weight of the armour is the reason for the higher level of protection.Add to this the basic hull sides, + suspension, + rest of addon armor, + rest of base armor. It was vehicle with many heavy components.
Yes, it is obivous. The M1 Abrams with armour protection against 115 mm APFSDS (maybe 350 mm RHAe vs KE as implied by Zaloga) is not protected against 125 mm APFSDS until 1985 (with penetration above 500 mm RHA at 2,000 m).Look at penetration capabilities of these types of ammunition, conclusion is very obvious.
They might also have access to all available informations. You simply assume that they are wrong and that they have access to less sources than Hunnicutt. Do you think this is a logical way to discuss? Zaloga for example who attributes the M1 Abrams with much less protection than you writes in his acknowledgments section about sources from the Army and General Dynamics Land Systems - which is pretty much the same set of sources as used by Hunnicutt.Dumb? No, but they might not have access to all informations.
The arrangement was modified, not the composition. That "arrangement" means "arrangement of the armour layers inside the composite array" is your sole interpretation and not written by Hunnicutt. Hunnicutt wrote arrangement of the special armour - where the armour is located and how thick it is. Chrysler is not the one who designs the armour, they probably didn't even have access to it. Hunnicutt provides a number of drawings on page 192, 193 and 194 about the changes of the Chrysler prototype. The shape of the hull and turret was modified, the earlier prototype had a weaker armoured section in the middle of the turret which was reduced; the turret roof was more exposed on the earlier prototype, just as the lower section of the hull at the driver's station. The armour thickness at the turret front was less uniform and the gap between hull and turret was more exposted.Read again, there is clearly written: Chrysler made a number of additional changes to enhance the survivability of their candidate and to reduce the cost. The arrangement of the special armor was modified and a special armor gun shield replaced the casting on the earlier proposal.
No.So we can see modification mainly around the armor itself.
I doubt that basic hull was made from alluminium, it have no sense and make vehicle vurnable to fire.The basic hull sides are already included (50 mm Aluminium). The Chieftain Mk 5/2 was physically much smaller (hull and turret length, height), carried much less fuel and ammunition and . The heavy weight of the armour is the reason for the higher level of protection.
Zaloga changed his estimations many times. My conclusion differs from yours, deal with this.Yes, it is obivous. The M1 Abrams with armour protection against 115 mm APFSDS (maybe 350 mm RHAe vs KE as implied by Zaloga) is not protected against 125 mm APFSDS until 1985 (with penetration above 500 mm RHA at 2,000 m).
And the same Zaloga changes his mind over time?They might also have access to all available informations. You simply assume that they are wrong and that they have access to less sources than Hunnicutt. Do you think this is a logical way to discuss? Zaloga for example who attributes the M1 Abrams with much less protection than you writes in his acknowledgments section about sources from the Army and General Dynamics Land Systems - which is pretty much the same set of sources as used by Hunnicutt.
Don't try to tell me what means what. Arrangement can mean anything, did you ever had any closer ties to military and actually knows that military likes to call many things in a very enigmatic thing?The arrangement was modified, not the composition. That "arrangement" means "arrangement of the armour layers inside the composite array" is your sole interpretation and not written by Hunnicutt. Hunnicutt wrote arrangement of the special armour - where the armour is located and how thick it is. Chrysler is not the one who designs the armour, they probably didn't even have access to it. Hunnicutt provides a number of drawings on page 192, 193 and 194 about the changes of the Chrysler prototype. The shape of the hull and turret was modified, the earlier prototype had a weaker armoured section in the middle of the turret which was reduced; the turret roof was more exposed on the earlier prototype, just as the lower section of the hull at the driver's station. The armour thickness at the turret front was less uniform and the gap between hull and turret was more exposted.
Well, then as we say here in Poland, "kit ci w oko".
This looks more like a painted metallic frame with bolts whose purpose is to keeping composite armor modules together.Interesting, armor modules are looking different, more massive and without these holes like in earlier version on older photo before 2006 Lebanon war, my best guess, some sort of improvement to Merkava Mk4 armor design.
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