Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

If Tanks have to evolve, which path they should follow?

  • Light Vehicles-Best for mobility

    Votes: 25 7.3%
  • Heavy Armour-Can take heavy punishment.

    Votes: 57 16.7%
  • Modular Design-Allowing dynamic adaptions.

    Votes: 198 58.1%
  • Universal Platform-Best for logistics.

    Votes: 61 17.9%

  • Total voters
    341

Damian

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I am doubtful about Al-Khalid armour quality (You said that they could have copied T-80UD armour) Did Ukraine give armour ToT? If so Al-Khalid might have
T-80UD armour. Also since Al-Khalid is a variant of Norinco Type 90-II, the composites are MOST LIKELY Chinese. What's the information about Chinese composites, how good are they?
Composite armor have most likely Chinese origins, ERA might be Chinese or Ukrainian. As for quality of Chinese composite, it is mostly not a problem of quality but quantity, due to method of installation of frontal armor on Chinese tanks, there is not a lot of place for composite armor.

Also Al-Khalid has massive weakspots like Arjun does (AFAIK Al-Khalid has weak side skirts and poor turret design with no storage boxes when Arjun has blow off panels and pressurized storage boxes- which aren't that effective but are armoured nevertheless)
This is truth.

Notice the thickened side skirts on Ak1 prototype,pic from 2008
They are not thickened, this is optical illusion because skirts have different design.

Anti-tandem should be simple, armour the ERA blocks sufficiently to withstand the precursor warhead, and there you go.
This is as we think, one of the methods to make ERAWA-2 have anti-tandem capabilities, and was capable to reduce capabilities of tandem warhead for Panzerfaust-3.
 

farhan_9909

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why will chinese want to share there armour tech with us?
When russia can refuse armour tot to india than so does the chinese in pak case

Ukraine also has not given us the blueprints of T-80ud armour.

In such sensitive development only a country can help other country with the development.
china must have armour better or close to chobham onboard the type99a2 series with huge investment in the field.i dont find any reason why would they give us there armour tech when we are not able to pay them.

i will post the publications of HEC.as soon as i get it.about the development of Armour for Al khalid

One more good news is Nust along with HMC and rawalpindi vehicle engineering are developing/developed(project 2007) Hydropneumatic suspension for Al khalid future variants
 

Damian

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why will chinese want to share there armour tech with us?
When russia can refuse armour tot to india than so does the chinese in pak case
Chinese might designed armor for export, did you considered this?

china must have armour better or close to chobham onboard the type99a2 series with huge investment in the field.
Chobham armor do not exist, and there were so many armor developed under Burlington program, that such statement is not very correct, not to mention that these armor were long time ago replaced by much more modern designs. Besides this, Chinese do not have experience as big as NATO or former Soviet Union on this field.
 

farhan_9909

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Chinese might designed armor for export, did you considered this?
and that must be inferior as well?

i had seen myself publication and official claim about this guy heading armour development project
now the journal of 2004 is not anymore in the list of HEC neither does the nust official site..i had already sent a pm to H khan about this if he could find it

HEC Control Panel

Chobham armor do not exist, and there were so many armor developed under Burlington program, that such statement is not very correct, not to mention that these armor were long time ago replaced by much more modern designs. Besides this, Chinese do not have experience as big as NATO or former Soviet Union on this field.
didnt knew about this.
Well china is involved in tanks atleast from the past 50 years,with investment in the field only next to usa.
though they dont reveal much to the public doesnt mean they doesnt has the better unless one think they are dickhead
 

Damian

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and that must be inferior as well?
No.

didnt knew about this.
Well china is involved in tanks atleast from the past 50 years,with investment in the field only next to usa.
though they dont reveal much to the public doesnt mean they doesnt has the better unless one think they are dickhead
China actually invest very little in the field of AFV's development. Most of their designs were copied and redesigned Soviet designs. Not to mention that they started research on composite and reactive armor very late, while USA and UK for example were experimenting with such designs during World War II, Soviets also most probably started working on such protection, or after WWII.

Compare such experiences with a nation that is mostly capable only to make copies of foreing designs... Chinese are not even capable to design on their own, a jet engine.
 

Austin

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All export armour from NATO , US or Russia are suitably down graded for OPSEC reason , The Soviet even had many sub variants of Armour developed even for Warsaw and finally for export model. The US similar to export M1 without DU inserts and who knows what else.

If chinese have developed and armour for export it would definately be inferior to the best armour they have and I would expect them to do so.
 

Andrei_bt

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No, I say contextual advertisement is not to be taken seriously as they say, especially in view of broad available information. Neither Nozh claims are serious.

And what do you know about current developements ? I guess not much, and cannot know.

You are another troll.
If you don't read articles and don't know anything - it is question of your ignorance.
 

Andrei_bt

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Where this patent is realised and where anti-tandem effect is mentioned in you link?


If you want me to go to your site, it does not provide explanation.
You don't havew anythyng else on this in open media :laugh:

Niistali: Эта ДЗ 2 года назад демонстрировалась американцам для защиты бортов их М1А2. Было сделано 2 опыта и оба удачные.НО контракт с американцами не состоялся
There are no claims of anti tandem protection by NII Staly, nothing demonstrated on any exebition. So we have nothing to talk about.
 

militarysta

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It was strongly advertised against double reactive armour, and it's developement was realised apparently due to insufficient performance of DM53 against such protection. Howewer, to claim inneficiency of this armour is not serious.
(...)
Have a look at official advertisement from ATK and Rheinmetall.
(...)
My mistake, here Defense Munitions International - 120MM KE DM63 Tank Ammunition
I check it.
There is no one source about "insufficient performance of DM53 against double reactive armour" I will say more -it's bullshit.
Brochure from DMI about DM63 consist the same phase as had mucht older Rheinmetall about the DM 53 on the old product page:
Rheinmetall old product page said:
In response to the need to improve the combat effectiveness of the LEOPARD2 main battle tank in dealing with present and future threats,a new, performance-enhanced kinetic energy (KE) projectile was developped: the 120mm x 570 DM53 (LKE II)[,capable of defeating all state-of-the-art armoured targets. This projectile was designed and optimised especially for penetrating double-reactive armour.
More or less DM53 LKEII had comfirmed by producer abilities " especially for penetrating double-reactive armour.". Thise on DMI page about DM63 is just copied descripsion from DM53:

Defense Munitions International said:
The DM63 was developed to destroy the latest generation ofmain battle tanks; even at long ranges of engagement, the round can penetrate double-reactive armour. The DM63 using a special state-of-the-art tungsten penetrator capable of overcoming the most extreme cutting and bending forces of double-reactive armour.
The unique design makes it possible for the DM63 to defeat all known types of tank armour, including multi-layer and composite arrays and reactive armour systems at all ranges of engagement.
It's obvious that both round haven't any problem whit double-reactive armour, but DM63 have better abilities. So please do not replicated or generate myth or misinforation about DM53 and ERA.
 
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Andrei_bt

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" especially for penetrating double-reactive armour."

double-reactive armour - what does it mean?
 

hest

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You are another troll.
If you don't read articles and don't know anything - it is question of your ignorance.
I read articles, what I do not take seriously is advertisement unlike others :)

Where this patent is realised and where anti-tandem effect is mentioned in you link?
For those who want to know about Relikt anti-tandem effect there is simple statement by Institute director about necesary duration with proper value in microseconds. Note that it corresponds with modern ATGM as Kornet (300 microseconds interval between leading and main warhead).

For deeper understanding it is not difficult to access to their publications on topic of anti-tandem ERA based on double plate interaction.



btw patent number was given in old site related with Relikt, now it may have changed.

You don't havew anythyng else on this in open media
If they have not released it is reason to have doubts about advertisement claims.

There are no claims of anti tandem protection by NII Staly, nothing demonstrated on any exebition. So we have nothing to talk about.
It was shown as you know, in video and they gave values and reports but I agree that there is no information released.

It's obvious that both round haven't any problem whit double-reactive armour, but DM63 have better abilities. So please do not replicated or generate myth or misinforation about DM53 and ERA.
About Relikt, bending-cutting effect of double plate interaction causes serious damage to penetrator, several times greater than previous Kontakt-5



Penetrator during interaction process, and without ERA (sorry for quality)



So it would not be surprise that simple modernisation of legacy T-72 or T-80 with such armour would create serious problems for any non segmentated round (M829x..).

DM63 is an improvement over DM53 and may have good ability to withstand such interaction, but it is far from passing "without any effect" (DM53 suffered loss of about 15% of penetration ability if they mean RHA, to under 600 mm in set up) especially if it is combined with strong composite armour.
 
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Andrei_bt

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Kontact and relict are outdated non workable waste and they are too ancient to discuss them.

About Relikt, bending-cutting effect of double plate interaction causes serious damage to penetrator, several times greater than previous Kontakt-5
it is a joke?
Look official info - http://niistali.ru/security/armor/relict?start=3
Relic
Повышение защиты: от БПС - в 1,3 раза
Kontakt5 ( http://niistali.ru/security/armor/builtincontakt?start=1)
Повышение защиты: от БПС в 1,2 раза.

1,2 and 1,3 ))))
 
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militarysta

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About Relikt, bending-cutting effect of double plate interaction causes serious damage to penetrator, several times greater than previous Kontakt-5
Agree -but only vs calsic APFSDS -Relikt can just "cut" forst part and rear part of the penetrator. But when we are talkin about segmented one it's looks slighty diffrent.

So it would not be surprise that simple modernisation of legacy T-72 or T-80 with such armour would create serious problems for any non segmentated round (M829x..).
Again agree :)


DM63 is an improvement over DM53
In half agree :) Mor or less we have APFSDS round whit the same ignitor, diffrent propelant charge, teh same sabot, finss and balistic cap, but thois waht is most important - penetrator (rod) have completly diffrent build.
DM-53 - 3 segments (short, short, long?)
DM-63 - 5 segments - eacht the same lenght (circa 130mm)

and may have good ability to withstand such interaction, but it is far from passing "without any effect"
Without any bigger at penetration effect.

(DM53 suffered loss of about 15% of penetration ability if they mean RHA, to under 600 mm in set up)
DM53 after heavy ERA have still circa 620-640mm RHA penetration. More or less it's go trought T-80U armour and penetrate 30mm RHA witness plate after main armour. Nacked late T-80U/UD armour can be estimatous as 500mm RHA for 550mm LOS, and circa 610-630mm RHA for 700mm LOS. Of course without Kontakt-5 ERA.

especially if it is combined with strong composite armour.
What You mean "strong composite armour". ?
In compare between T-72B, T-80U whit polymer celss and T-80U whit other alyout this last one have strongest known in late 1980s in Soviet Union special armour layout. I had wrote about this here:
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...e-tanks-armour-technology-366.html#post720098
 
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farhan_9909

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No.



China actually invest very little in the field of AFV's development. Most of their designs were copied and redesigned Soviet designs. Not to mention that they started research on composite and reactive armor very late, while USA and UK for example were experimenting with such designs during World War II, Soviets also most probably started working on such protection, or after WWII.

Compare such experiences with a nation that is mostly capable only to make copies of foreing designs... Chinese are not even capable to design on their own, a jet engine.
Pakistan has many research lab related to metallurgical engineering.I really doubt why will Pakistan want to import chinese armour.and much harder to digest why will china export us there armour blueprint.

the best they can do us is to help us in our own armour development project.as H khan said i dont know why they dont want to give official name to pakistani armour like chobham or indian kanchan.

Because china major threat is from arjun and t-90..both are seriously inferior to type 99 series..

T-90 is almost comparable but we all know the one exported to india has inferior kanchan armour not russian,Problems with Thermal imagers,Inferior Gun,or in short a downgraded tank.
While arjun still only is used for training purpose and in very very slow rate production despite the design flaws and development flaws it has.

So against the threat the chinese has there existing tanks are more of an over kill.
 

Damian

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Pakistan has many research lab related to metallurgical engineering.I really doubt why will Pakistan want to import chinese armour.and much harder to digest why will china export us there armour blueprint.
Even if you have a lot of labs do not mean they can design something proper just yet. Sometimes it is better to import before own scientific base can come up with something that fullfill requirements.

And it is not something difficult why Chinese would not offer their product, reason is good... money.

he best they can do us is to help us in our own armour development project.as H khan said i dont know why they dont want to give official name to pakistani armour like chobham or indian kanchan.
Again, "Chobham" armor is creation of some journalist. British and American special armors developed after WWII never had codenames. Codenames were given only to research and development programs, for example "Chopper", "Burlington", "Starflower". Only within program "Burlington", dr. Harvey and his team, developed several different types of composite armors, with different projectile defeating mechanism etc. Nobody even know wich design in the end was choosen by British Army, which design was choosen for further development by US Army and later included in to M1 Abrams program, nobody even knows which of these several armor designs were later choosen for export purposes, and was presented both to European NATO allies, as well as to customers like Iran, that were wanting to purchase tanks like FV4030 Shir Iran 2 which later after slight redesigning and adaptation was renamed FV4030/4 Challenger 1.

On the other hand I must say it was a briliant disinformation, that people started to discuss about new armor in some unofficially created codename and were thinking that all NATO tanks use exactly the same design, where in reality whole subject is far more interesting and not that simple, also taking in to consideration a further evolution of these armors.

And it is even funny, when some countries, create some codename, and claim "hey we have a "Chobham" like armor as well!". :)

I don't know, maybe this is just a cultural difference, that in some places of this world, people new to some developments, like to claim they reached the level of more experienced countries.

For example in my country, we also had developed 3 types of composite armors, codenamed CAWA-1, CAWA-1NA and CAWA-2. CAWA-2 was developed for main battle tanks. In configuration for a T-72M1 tanks frontal hull armor, CAWA-2 offered protection equivalent of approx ~500-550mm RHA against APFSDS ammunition. But I never saw, even once in any serious publication, anyone, even chief engineer that lead the team that developed these armor or other types of protection in my country, that we all the sudden developed something comparable in 1990's to Americans, Germans or British. So honestly, I do not understand such type of claims.

Because china major threat is from arjun and t-90..both are seriously inferior to type 99 series..
I say, Chinese ZTZ-99 is tank full of flaws, even more than Arjun or T-90, and is preaty much stupidly designed, unnececary big hull, larger turret, makes it heavier, while it's armor protection at best represent level of T-72B or basic T-90 with cast turret.

You should not listen to Chinese propaganda.

T-90 is almost comparable but we all know the one exported to india has inferior kanchan armour not russian,Problems with Thermal imagers,Inferior Gun,or in short a downgraded tank.
Why do you think so? Any proof that "Kanchan" is worse than Chinese designs? There are no problems with TIS, or no inferior gun, especially that Chinese ZPT-98 is nothing special, just clone of 2A46M, which is older design than more modern 2A46M-4 or 2A46M-5.

So against the threat the chinese has there existing tanks are more of an over kill.
No, you are wrong, and it is fairly easy to defeat Chinese tanks due to their inadequate protection, even with Carl Gustav 84mm recoilles rifle firing at poorly protected hull sides.
 
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militarysta

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I sugesst use just "Ockham's razor" rule.

Germans gave poland for free 128 Leopard-2A4 build between 1985 and 1987, and what? Polish indistry had opened erly leo-2A4 special armour (produce from 1985*) cavity and tested this armour. And we have mirracle in Poland - NERA became avaible in Poland :whistle: Of cource it can be coincidence...

* Leo-2A4 tanks since 1986 have very diffrent armour composition. And those tank where not opened by polish industry - army doesn't allowed for sucht action, after Bumar's idiots destroy one tank (1985) durig opening "special armour cavity" in..wrong place.

So if Ukriana sold to Pakistan T-80UD whit some armour then it's almoust sure that those armour was tested in Pakistan and it's higly possible that it was copied.
I gave here two possible composition Ukr. T-80UD armour - what was true propably only Andiej here known :) more or less i suggest to not take Pak. engeneers as idiots - that had very good in 1990s armour fro Ukraina and obvious option was just copy it. No mirracle here, just "Ockham's razor".

Based on this IMHO Pak. Al-Chalid (Khalid) will have circa 600mm vs APFSDS for base armour + ERA.
It's mucht more then any possible now APFSDS in India.
 
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Damian

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@militarysta, we have NERA like armor in Poland earlier. T-55AM "Merida" modernization, had BDD armor purchased from Soviet Union most probably. However CAWA armor series, seems to be based on different principle, of ceramics placed between steel plates of different hardness.

Also when NERA armor for BRDM-2 vehicles was tested in Poland? In 1990's? Or later after induction of Leopard 2's in to service?
 
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