Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

If Tanks have to evolve, which path they should follow?

  • Light Vehicles-Best for mobility

    Votes: 25 7.3%
  • Heavy Armour-Can take heavy punishment.

    Votes: 57 16.7%
  • Modular Design-Allowing dynamic adaptions.

    Votes: 198 58.1%
  • Universal Platform-Best for logistics.

    Votes: 61 17.9%

  • Total voters
    341

militarysta

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Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

What level of capability does the Relikt (the version on T-90MS) offer compared to our enemy's arsenal?
In case Indian enemy? China, Pakistan? Well - Relikt is very good in that case becouse both countries propably (99%) haven't any APFSDS projected to overpas modern ERA, the same in ATGM thema. So for Indian condition Relikt is quite good.

But when we compare Relikt whit western modern APFSDS (DM53, DM63, M338, M829A3) then it's really not enought.
 

militarysta

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T-90MS protection level figures was accidentally leaked , since the guy who was explaining to Putin did not realise that the media had extended mike over him from a distant even though the media was kept some distant during briefing , iirc the guy was saying to to putin 850 KE,1200 HEAT from front and side and rear was 550 HEAT
"accidentally" :lol:
"accidentally" he said exactly about protection '
"accidentally" media microphones capture that
"accidentally" madia was to close
C'mon by "accidentally" you can get women pregnant not talking on open space about tank armour protection where media are near. This whole "accidentally leaked" protection level for T-90MS is one big bullshit made as promo new UVZ modernisation.

And ERA abilities to defeted APFSDS and SC warhed are very diffrent. In case old monoblock rounds like M829A1, M829A2, DM43, M332, OLF F1, 3BM42, 3BM42M,etc those ERA can be effective and maybe it have sucht frontal protection. But when APFSDS is quite modern and whiot abilities to overcome ERA -like DM53, DM63, M338, M829A3, etc then efectivness sucht ERA can be catastrophly low. This what is important is base armour protection.
Based in many diffrent sources I can estimatous T-90A base armour as circa 650mm RHA vs KE for 840mm LOS and circa 500mm RHA for 650mm LOS. And w can added some protection for ERA.
 
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militarysta

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Russians too are working on new gen armour and they have mentioned that Armata will have non explosive dynamic armour , perhaps some new NERA type or something else ....we will see when that happens.
And this shoud be really significiant why Russian turn in to NERA/SLERA armour after decades of ERA developmend - isn't it? Exactly the same did Germnas -they after 20 yers of developmend ERA just rejected it and turn into NERA in KWSII program for Leo-2A5.

Quite diffren is ERA work on linera SC pronicples like Knife Duplet, or Chech EFA - how modern APFSDS perform against them is quite mysterious.
 

methos

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It is against new types of APFSDS ammunition designed to defeat such protection. The only really reliable type of ERA that have future perspectives is Ukrainian "Knife" and "Duplet" ERA, that instead of explosive material between steel plates working mechanism, use linear shaped charges as it's working mechanism, and it is damn effective.
That's not true. Most of what has been claimed about the performance of Nozh and Duplet is propaganda (90% reduction of APFSDS penetration for example). Just take a look at actual penetration values of linear shaped charges and the size of Nozh/Duplet inserts: they cannot actually penetrate even with optimum standoff. When an APFSDS hit Nozh/Duplet only a sinlge (!) linear shaped charge might have optimum standoff, the rest will perform even worse.
Nozh/Duplet can only damage/weaken a penetrator and not destroy it as claimed by btvt.narod.ru. The Czech "Explosively Formed Axe" active protection system (where the charges are fuzed by computer and thus can be detonated closer to the ideal point) manages to reduce the penetration of APFSDS by 20 - 30% (which is essentially Kontakt-5 performance level against 1980s APFSDS); not 90%.
Duplet has the advantage of using two layers - but that's it. It is not going to resist better against segmented penetrators, it is not going to magically protect even APCs against tank ammunition. It is not "the oly reliable type of ERA". The construction of Relikt is still pretty unkown, so is the construction of Kaktus. Rolf Hilmes said that Kaktus would use much heavier flyer plates - this might have been an attempt to counter segmented penetrators (i.e. if the plate is too thick for one segment, it will reduce the penetration of the APFSDS after ERA compared to Kontakt-5). Relikt might also use some features making it more resistant to modern non-monobloc rounds, they could for example try using a multi-layer flyer plate or something like that. It is not very clever to describe Relikt as "obsolete" when it is still unkown how it works/looks.
 

militarysta

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Czech EFA it's child born from cooperation between:
a) Explosia
b) ECO
c) VTUO Brno (part of VOP-026 Sternberk)

EFA have two verison EFA-light and EFA-heavy (for tanks). Devolping EFA had started in 2006 and first test was done in 2009 , there aere two test known:
a) on OT-64 SKOT APC when EFA destroyed PG-7W granade (1m from APC)
b) on T-72M1 whit EFA who was shot by APFSDS:
-3BM15 (12:1)
-3BM42 (16:1)
-EPpSv-97 (20:1)

Czechs claim that EFA reduces APFSDS penetration capabilities ca about 30%. What is interesting - the best performace EFA achive vs. tungsten rods, not vs. old steel (alloy steel with something). On the internet there are drawings of the patent possible to download, and Czech financial report from the EFA developing study (for Czech MoD).
 
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Damian

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That's not true. Most of what has been claimed about the performance of Nozh and Duplet is propaganda (90% reduction of APFSDS penetration for example). Just take a look at actual penetration values of linear shaped charges and the size of Nozh/Duplet inserts: they cannot actually penetrate even with optimum standoff. When an APFSDS hit Nozh/Duplet only a sinlge (!) linear shaped charge might have optimum standoff, the rest will perform even worse.
Nozh/Duplet can only damage/weaken a penetrator and not destroy it as claimed by btvt.narod.ru. The Czech "Explosively Formed Axe" active protection system (where the charges are fuzed by computer and thus can be detonated closer to the ideal point) manages to reduce the penetration of APFSDS by 20 - 30% (which is essentially Kontakt-5 performance level against 1980s APFSDS); not 90%.
Duplet has the advantage of using two layers - but that's it. It is not going to resist better against segmented penetrators, it is not going to magically protect even APCs against tank ammunition. It is not "the oly reliable type of ERA". The construction of Relikt is still pretty unkown, so is the construction of Kaktus. Rolf Hilmes said that Kaktus would use much heavier flyer plates - this might have been an attempt to counter segmented penetrators (i.e. if the plate is too thick for one segment, it will reduce the penetration of the APFSDS after ERA compared to Kontakt-5). Relikt might also use some features making it more resistant to modern non-monobloc rounds, they could for example try using a multi-layer flyer plate or something like that. It is not very clever to describe Relikt as "obsolete" when it is still unkown how it works/looks.
Sorry, you are wrong, also about Duplet using two or more layers, both Knife or Duplet can be used as single or layered construction, difference is in reactive element. Besides this, avaiable materials clearly show high efficency of Knife and Duplet.
 

methos

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What diameter does the charge have? Probably less than 50 mm. Material is copper.

A linear shaped charge made of copper with a width (charge diameter) of 2.4 inches (~60 mm) penetrates three inches (~76 mm) steel at optimum standoff. A 1.56 inches (~40 mm) wide penetrates only two inches (~51 mm). Without optimum standoff penetration is much lower: 40 mm for a 100 mm copper linear shaped charge.
Given these values, a Nozh/Duplet reactive armour tile mounted at the glacis of a T-80/T-84 (68° angle) would fail at penetrating a 22 mm steel (!) APFSDS completely. Instead Nozh/Duplet will weaken the penetrator by creating various notches. During penetration of an armour array, the penetrator will break at the notches.

Which available material "clearly show high efficency of Knife and Duplet", which is not some advertisment/propaganda material?
 

Damian

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What diameter does the charge have? Probably less than 50 mm. Material is copper.

A linear shaped charge made of copper with a width (charge diameter) of 2.4 inches (~60 mm) penetrates three inches (~76 mm) steel at optimum standoff. A 1.56 inches (~40 mm) wide penetrates only two inches (~51 mm). Without optimum standoff penetration is much lower: 40 mm for a 100 mm copper linear shaped charge.
Given these values, a Nozh/Duplet reactive armour tile mounted at the glacis of a T-80/T-84 (68° angle) would fail at penetrating a 22 mm steel (!) APFSDS completely. Instead Nozh/Duplet will weaken the penetrator by creating various notches. During penetration of an armour array, the penetrator will break at the notches.

Which available material "clearly show high efficency of Knife and Duplet", which is not some advertisment/propaganda material?
Video from tests I seen show that fired at 100m distance, APFSDS was not capable to both penetrate front glacis plate and turret front, there was only cosmetic damage. While at sides APFSDS on 80mm side armor left a penetration of only 40-45mm depth at angle of 30 degrees. At angle of 90 degrees PG-7VR left a hole of only 45mm depth, and at angle of 30 degrees, a cosmetic damage was made.

This shows rather high efficency don't you think?
 

militarysta

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@methos @Damian

Consider the fact that 90% Duplet/Knife efectivness is given after thet on M332 ond OLF F1 against at least double (and triple) Knife module. In that case we have 2-3 casette whit linear SC.
IMHO Knife efectivness is very depend on pleace when penetrator hit ERA casette. If this is lover part then efectiven can be not so big. For other side - any "accurate" SC wil damage rod befor penetration, but again IMHO -it's almoust imposible that all of them will hit penetrator - more or less 1-6 are abel to hit SC rest will by ignit or in palce where penetrator is not placed (above place of hit) or as methos said - distance will be to big. In russian net smth had said that biggest real efectiven of the Knife is circa 60%. It's looks mucht more possible in typical scenario.

@EDIT
those video is easly to find in YT in browser: "Knife, Duplet, ERA" etc
http://www.youtube.com/results?sear....114.1380.11j4.15.0...0.0...1ac.1.H9DajQdMwKM
 
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methos

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@Damian

If your source is the video mentioned by militarysta, then consider the following:

- they did not mention which type of 125 mm APFSDS was used; only a single time they mention that they used 3BM-42 Mango.
- they did not mention the angles. The side hull hits seem to be hit at an angle smaller than 30° (judging by the location of the hit and the shape of the penetration mark).
- the partial penetration into the glacis of the 3BM-42 Mango APFSDS seems to be more than just "cosmetic damage"
- hits on the turret module are odd. They didn't aim at the center, but at the target array at an angle and only mention the penetration depth of the worse of the two hits.

What however is very clearly to see: Large gaps in the vehicle protection after a single hit; armour elements fall away after being hit (for example at the turret module), reactive elements trigger the other reactive elements which are next to them.
 
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militarysta

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@Damian


Answer yourself dear friend against what type APFSDS on what angle and where are visible hit places under nloout Knife casettes....

*blow out casettes

in most cases the scenario is preatty comfortable for Knife
 
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hest

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That's not true. Most of what has been claimed about the performance of Nozh and Duplet is propaganda (90% reduction of APFSDS penetration for example). Just take a look at actual penetration values of linear shaped charges and the size of Nozh/Duplet inserts: they cannot actually penetrate even with optimum standoff. When an APFSDS hit Nozh/Duplet only a sinlge (!) linear shaped charge might have optimum standoff, the rest will perform even worse.
Yes, such performance is not possible to achieve with shaped charges, howewer, description given in open media of Nozh working method is not correct, there are other components, effects contributing to damage of penetrator. Some material for thought (fast translate):

"Now, regarding "Nozh." ERA. The cumulative "Knives" is not news for ERA developers. Back in the early 70s, this principle is being followed by NII Stali in cooperation with the Kharkov design bureau. Then, for this method of protection is not achieved acceptable performance. One of the reasons - too small a distance at which the linear shaped charges have shown the cumulative effect of a knife. This distance is less than half the size of cumulative cavity, ie several centimeters. At large distances, the cumulative knife, "blurred" and its efficiency drops sharply. Therefore, when metal is cut by the elongated hollow charges, they are placed substantially adjacent to the metal. Another reason for purely constructive plan. To form a flat "knife" is required for the initiation of a complex structure elongated charge. To form a "proper knife" by spot detonator cord is not possible.

Another thing is that the actual design of DZ 'Knife' is different from the one that the authors draw in the open literature and also the effect of "knife" in it contains other components which, in our opinion, ensure the effectiveness of a given complex. The whole question - what is this efficiency. But here, too, while many uncertainties, especially when there is a comparison of "Knife" and "Relic". Data on RELICT is based on its experimental evaluation of modern ordnance (Svinets-1, Cornet, Vampire, etc.). "Knife," according to the authors also tested the likes of ammunition, but in the photo, for some reason justifying an effect only shows outdated BPS develop the 50s, but the Bulgarian tandems, fight which is much easier than with the above.

Exactly the same doubts arise about the high performance "Knife" in relation to the tandem ammunition and percussion cores. "Knife" pure this efficiency can not provide due to construction.

Alas, a serious analytical articles sometimes have to sift through advertising on the actual state of affairs."

Nozh/Duplet can only damage/weaken a penetrator and not destroy it as claimed by btvt.narod.ru. The Czech "Explosively Formed Axe" active protection system (where the charges are fuzed by computer and thus can be detonated closer to the ideal point) manages to reduce the penetration of APFSDS by 20 - 30% (which is essentially Kontakt-5 performance level against 1980s APFSDS); not 90%.
Duplet has the advantage of using two layers - but that's it. It is not going to resist better against segmented penetrators, it is not going to magically protect even APCs against tank ammunition. It is not "the oly reliable type of ERA".
There is not evidence which could confirm Nozh advertised claims, in tests neither theoretical explanation (unlike Kontakt, Relikt, of which there is good information in media), just advertisement. But it does not exclude that it could be an effective protection though.

The possibilities of segmented construction against composite and reactive armour were known for decades already and they are not new, nor any breakthrought, it is not as if they were left apart during Relikt developement. They can be effective in the sense that they do not suffer such a drastic performance reduction after interaction with ERA, yes, this is agreed, but they are still subject of inevitable damage with loss of lenght, leading part which does not participate in armour penetration and some destabilising effect, especially against two reflected plates. Even DM63 has notably degraded performance after test with some ERA. What is important is combination of main composite and reactive armour. While that round could be effective against legacy tanks with Relikt upgrade such as T-72B, T-80.. against modern target it would be more dubious.

About modernised T-90, Sienko (UVZ) in interview stated that it has a perspective for period of next ten years.

The construction of Relikt is still pretty unkown, so is the construction of Kaktus. Rolf Hilmes said that Kaktus would use much heavier flyer plates - this might have been an attempt to counter segmented penetrators (i.e. if the plate is too thick for one segment, it will reduce the penetration of the APFSDS after ERA compared to Kontakt-5). Relikt might also use some features making it more resistant to modern non-monobloc rounds, they could for example try using a multi-layer flyer plate or something like that. It is not very clever to describe Relikt as "obsolete" when it is still unkown how it works/looks.
Indeed, what was pursued with serious modernisation programmes is not Relikt but a different ERA construction and working principle from multi-layer or double plate interaction. This is a new reactive armour element implemented in T-72B, T-90 upgrade (Burlak) consisting of modules including large dynamic elements. In simple form, this principle makes use of a plate of large surface and great thickness, using greater amount of explosive to preserve great velocity and increase energy directed against projectile. This combination allows to destroy segmented penetrators by projecting on the whole rod and to achieve anti-tandem properties. Near future howerer is with reactive armour using non-explosive energic material.

From related KBTM patent image

Burlak ERA

 
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Damian

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@Damian


Answer yourself dear friend against what type APFSDS on what angle and where are visible hit places under nloout Knife casettes....

*blow out casettes

in most cases the scenario is preatty comfortable for Knife
APFSDS is most probably the most commonly avaiable, but this is not the point, the point is that residual penetration is relatively small, smaller than in case of other ERA types. Compare photos of T-90A tests and "Duplet" tests, on T-90A you have relatively big residual penetration after every hit, contrary is target protected by "Duplet".
 
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Andrei_bt

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Data on RELICT is based on its experimental evaluation of modern ordnance (Svinets-1, Cornet, Vampire, etc.).
No such data availible.
Relict has it's name "relic" whish translates as something old and antient, and it's completely corespondes tio this non effective ERA.

unlike Kontakt, Relikt, of which there is good information in media


kontact 5 is outdated - 6 km penetration from M829A2
relict does not protect against old M829A2 !!!
It is official developer's data. But there are no single official photo from testing conmtakt-5 and relict.
It is outdated non effective "relic" and it's nothing to discuss.
 

Andrei_bt

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via mp.net
In 1995 after chechnia campaign with K-5 ERA made a visual demonstration where properly geared up T-72 was shot at point blank 5 times in a row with different 125mm shaped/heat rounds without any penetration, it's a same tank just with ERA completely blown off and it came back on his own
And different 125mm shaped/heat rounds was Outdated old rounds. This is a lame excuse for press, after a bitter defeat in Chechnya.
And still Russian industry does not produce a solution against frontal hits by modern APFSDS and against tandem RPG at sides
...
even BMPT has no protection, only against old RPG monobloc with add-on tiles -


It is a joke, not a solution.
 

militarysta

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"Knife," to the authors also tested the likes of ammunition, but in the photo, for some reason justifying an effect only shows outdated BPS develop the 50s, but the Bulgarian tandems, fight which is much easier than with the above.
Mostly I agree whit those in Your post about Knife, but here I can't agree - Knife was tested in 3 countries against more or less three diffrent rounds (OLF F1, M332, KWA in USA?) and those rounds are mucht modern then 3BM42, or even Sniviets (3BM46) - rather on the same level like 3BM42M "Lekalo". More or less ammo from middle 1990s.

The possibilities of segmented construction against composite and reactive armour were known for decades already and they are not new, nor any breakthrought, it is not as if they were left apart during Relikt developement.
There is very big difrences between partial construction (example 3BM42) and trully segmented APFSDS penetrator. Technology abilitiest to developed those last one cames in late 1990s.


They can be effective in the sense that they do not suffer such a drastic performance reduction after interaction with ERA, yes, this is agreed, but they are still subject of inevitable damage with loss of lenght, leading part which does not participate in armour penetration and some destabilising effect, especially against two reflected plates.
False. Segmented penetrator where developed when was clearly that special tip to overcome ERA is not enought against multilayered ERA (in sense many reflecting plates). DM53 test where made on ERA whit sucht abilities (two reflecting plates) and those DM53 slighty go trought. You can belive me or not, I cant post some material here but DM53 have abilities to slighty overcome sucht ERA.
DM53 is build from three part (IMHO two shorter and one longer) -it's perforation after ERA whit circa two reflected plates is like DM43 normally so about 620mm RHA. It's enought to perforate T-90A turret on typical distanse.

Even DM63 has notably degraded performance after test with some ERA.
Eny sources? Even small one? That what I can see shown smth very diffrent. DM63 is consist from 5 sgments -eacht the same lengh. It's slight diffrent then in DM53 mechanism.


Indeed, what was pursued with serious modernisation programmes is not Relikt but a different ERA construction and working principle from multi-layer or double plate interaction. This is a new reactive armour element implemented in T-72B, T-90 upgrade (Burlak) consisting of modules including large dynamic elements. In simple form, this principle makes use of a plate of large surface and great thickness, using greater amount of explosive to preserve great velocity and increase energy directed against projectile. This combination allows to destroy segmented penetrators by projecting on the whole rod and
Rather not:
a) Burlak and Kaktus where developed when nobody heard about fully segmented rounds - becouse there where no technology posibilities to made sucht round between half of the 1990s.
b) size of the elements have nothing to done here -it's rather problem between how fast is intereaction of first and second plate whit penetrator.
And about thickness - in theory plate shoud be thick as first segment lenght - hard to achive when we take circe 660mm long rod /5 segments = circa 130mm long segment even if we consider slopped heavy plate in ERA that it doubled it's real thickenss then we have
at least ~60mm (6cm!) thick plate to really stopped sucht segment. Good bless whit sucht thick plate in ERA...
 

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