Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

If Tanks have to evolve, which path they should follow?

  • Light Vehicles-Best for mobility

    Votes: 25 7.3%
  • Heavy Armour-Can take heavy punishment.

    Votes: 57 16.7%
  • Modular Design-Allowing dynamic adaptions.

    Votes: 198 58.1%
  • Universal Platform-Best for logistics.

    Votes: 61 17.9%

  • Total voters
    341

Damian

New Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
4,836
Likes
2,202
I do not see how it is correct to replace current IFV to a single tank weighted vehicle, it increments costs and creates new issues, reduces mobility, transportability... and it is against world practice.
And nobody really cares in the real world what you thinks.

Israelis go even further than Americans, they argument that IFV in their experiences is completely failed idea, because normally their APC's are cooperating closely with tanks, so in their view there is no need for IFV armed with automatic cannon and ATGM's.

And both American and Israeli approach is based on real assymetric and conventional conflicts, where the basic idea is that lightweight vehicles lost their nececity in front line.

Besides this you do not understand still. GCV IFV is onli "increment 1" of GCV program, in future there are planned more vehicles designed within the program. GCV IFV is not the only vehicle that will be in ABCT's, it will not completely replace M2 IFV, there also is AMPV program for lighter second line tracked vehicles that will replace M113.

Seriously, start to read with understanding these American documents, because it seems you have a huge problem with this.

They increased number of passengers to 9 because they will not be able to totally replace current vehicles due to expense, while this will make vehicle heavier with no increase in protection compared to it's class, increase cost and reduce mobility.
Oh god... the number of dismounts is 9 because US Army infantry squad is 9 people, not because of number of vehicles. M2 IFV currently takes from 6 to 7 dismounts, so it is a big problem to carry squads within vehicles, this is why requirement is a vehicle capable to carry 9 dismounts.

Seriously it is that big problem to you to understand this? I had higher opinion about education system in former soviet union, but you are example that I was wrong.

It is shown in article that frontal and lateral protection is supossed to be achieved with APS, with a vehicle of such weigth should accomplish this already, but it does not.
There is nothing shown. As I said if you belive that in article for wide public, they will say what are exact protection levels of vehicle armor, then you are more stupid than I thought.

Oh BTW do not expect in case of vehicle with front mounted engine to have at front exactly the same protection level as MBT with rear mounted engine. Front mounted engine and transmission limits thickness of front hull armor.

So eventual heavy IFV based on "Armata" platform, will also have lower protection levels at front than MBT version of "Armata" with rear mounted engine. Simple as that.

Actually what is worth of criticism is not only supposed technical aspect, but whole developement path of programme and all cancelations, delays, restart... Even basic requirements are in doubt.
I can say the exactly same thing about Russian R&D programs. When the last time official in Russia were saying with such enthusiasm "we are so close, the super T-95 is close to be fielded" but... in the end it was cancelled.

It is normal that there is secrecy but important thing is the encouragement and financiation by the goverment of a great number of programmes, building of new production base, activity of designers, producers which will result on new level, whole rearmament programme.

And they are actually being made already and not just concepts which result only in money waste as FCS or now GCV.
1) And the same is in USA, but procuerement program is different because we live in a wonderfull economic system called Capitalism where companies are private owned... not in a crappy socialism where everything is state owned.

2) Why GCV is waste of money when vehicle is still in R&D phase, and not even a single technology demonstrator was builded yet?! I ask again do you even understand the whole research and development cycle? No it seems you not, while claiming how smart you are, avarage engineer I know, that is involved in military R&D programs would say you are idiot.

Ob 195 was interesting, because they set very high requirements, far from rest of world level and they were mostly met by developers.

Originally it's FCS TO5-SKO was composed by 7 channels with synthesis of different wavelenght information to allow engagement under all ranges and circumstances with same effectiveness, and inmunne to countermeasures.

- Low light TV 0.4-0.7 micrometers
- Near infrared 0.75-1.4 micrometers
- Thermal 3-5 micrometers
- Thermal 8-12 micrometers
- Millimeter wave radar
- Lidar
- External, receiving information from another source (vehicle, etc), radiochannel

Also much better rangefinders were developed, capable to operate in harsh conditions, all processes of target aquisition and engagement weere automated, and components, including matrixes of thermal cameras were domestic.

It was later simplified but met requirements, there was nothing close to it. Main reasons behind programme issues were management and inmature production base, so next generation vehicle developement will succeed under newer programme.
 
Last edited:

hest

New Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
568
Likes
56
Israelis go even further than Americans, they argument that IFV in their experiences is completely failed idea, because normally their APC's are cooperating closely with tanks, so in their view there is no need for IFV armed with automatic cannon and ATGM's.

And both American and Israeli approach is based on real assymetric and conventional conflicts, where the basic idea is that lightweight vehicles lost their nececity in front line.
First, Namer is not an IFV and it does not serve for the role, and Israel is different from US.

Second, you should learn about IFV concept and it's role as infantry support, it has to meet most important requirements of mobility and firepower. If you look at world practice you'll realise attention is paid at increase of firepower for infantry, Warrior, Puma, BMP...

Besides this you do not understand still. GCV IFV is onli "increment 1" of GCV program, in future there are planned more vehicles designed within the program. GCV IFV is not the only vehicle that will be in ABCT's, it will not completely replace M2 IFV, there also is AMPV program for lighter second line tracked vehicles that will replace M113.

Seriously, start to read with understanding these American documents, because it seems you have a huge problem with this.
Main IFV should be this heavy GCV with less than desirable armament and mobility in replacement of current ligher vehicles. AMPV is not supposed to perform same IFV role but more as second line transport, you understand the difference ?

Oh god... the number of dismounts is 9 because US Army infantry squad is 9 people, not because of number of vehicles. M2 IFV currently takes from 6 to 7 dismounts, so it is a big problem to carry squads within vehicles, this is why requirement is a vehicle capable to carry 9 dismounts.
Current squad is 6-7 and not only in US, and it is optimal number with no need to increase. GCV will have to increase number of passengers as they probably could not afford to replace all current fleet completely. And your AMPV is also 7 dismounts, so they are not really switching, it is just they have to save.

There is nothing shown. As I said if you belive that in article for wide public, they will say what are exact protection levels of vehicle armor, then you are more stupid than I thought.
It is notable that on each programme, article they always talk about non-existing APS as main protection improvement, for instance in Russia they never rely (keyword) on them to achieve main requirements.

Oh BTW do not expect in case of vehicle with front mounted engine to have at front exactly the same protection level as MBT with rear mounted engine. Front mounted engine and transmission limits thickness of front hull armor.

So eventual heavy IFV based on "Armata" platform, will also have lower protection levels at front than MBT version of "Armata" with rear mounted engine. Simple as that.
Yes, but it does not mean that much lighter plattform with simpler armament is not able to meet protection requirement with additional armour and not rely on APS, but another thing is weight increase due to bigger number of crew and another issues as seen in GCV (heavier than tank).

Russians made a more correct approach. There will be heavy IFV, transport based on Armata, analogue to GCV, but also on medium weighted plattforms, Kurganets-25 and Bumerang, fulfilling their niche. It is not efficient to switch just to heavier vehicle, and problems would appear

- Costly, not possible to entirely replace current fleet => increase of passengers to 9 to meet number => increase in weight, cost, reduction in mobility and overall efficiency.

I can say the exactly same thing about Russian R&D programs. When the last time official in Russia were saying with such enthusiasm "we are so close, the super T-95 is close to be fielded" but... in the end it was cancelled.
All developement works were made, it actually existed in metal as well as all systems. It would be more correct to say not cancelled, but transferred to new programme, as Armata will base on all developements under better management and readied production base.

There are actually no such developements in rest of countries, they either ceased decades ago and/or were cancelled before becoming anything as FCS because of early conceptual error.

1) And the same is in USA, but procuerement program is different because we live in a wonderfull economic system called Capitalism where companies are private owned... not in a crappy socialism where everything is state owned.

2) Why GCV is waste of money when vehicle is still in R&D phase, and not even a single technology demonstrator was builded yet?! I ask again do you even understand the whole research and development cycle? No it seems you not, while claiming how smart you are, avarage engineer I know, that is involved in military R&D programs would say you are idiot.
1) Not everything should be private, and there is always need of state control of strategic sectors and of more efficient coordination.

2) Because same as FCS was, it is not more than insecure concept without solid technical work, GCV was cancelled, delayed, restarted...
 
Last edited:

Damian

New Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
4,836
Likes
2,202
First, Namer is not an IFV and it does not serve for the role, and Israel is different from US.

Second, you should learn about IFV concept and it's role as infantry support, it has to meet most important requirements of mobility and firepower. If you look at world practice you'll realise attention is paid at increase of firepower for infantry, Warrior, Puma, BMP...
And where I said that Namer is IFV? I ask again, are you capable to read with understanding? Do you even learned english in school? Because it seems that you do not understand even simplest, basic argumentation.

I know what is concept of IFV, or rather concepts, because there is no one, single universal concept, as well as there is no, one single universal concept of MBT, attack helicopter etc. etc. etc.

As I said, why Americans should mimic others, when they have their own, perhaps even unique experiences from real battlefield.

Main IFV should be this heavy GCV with less than desirable armament and mobility in replacement of current ligher vehicles. AMPV is not supposed to perform same IFV role but more as second line transport, you understand the difference ?
No, you do not understand, GCV is not ready yet, neither this document represent how the final products from both GDLS and BAe will look like. You are making bald conclusions based on document, that has nothing to do with final product, it only shows some patterns, some requirements, and some possible but not nececary solutions, neither it represents how vehicle will be in the end. And of course that AMPV will not be IFV, where I said so? I said that AMPV will perform also role of lither armored multipurpose platform, which means it will be also capable to carry soldiers, thats all, so it will supplement GCV IFV.

You seems to misunderstood anything your adversary says, then create your own fantasies, and then you start to fight with these fantasies.

Current squad is 6-7 and not only in US, and it is optimal number with no need to increase. GCV will have to increase number of passengers as they probably could not afford to replace all current fleet completely. And your AMPV is also 7 dismounts, so they are not really switching, it is just they have to save.
Now, current squad is 9 soldiers, check US Army structure, the standard squad is 9 soldiers, but there is problem because currently used IFV can carry only 6 or 7 dismounts, which means that squads are needed to be divided by several vehicles, which is not optimal.

AMPV will carry as many dismounts as choosen design will permitt, Non-IFV M2 based platform can also carry approx 9 dismounts (no turret), Tracked Stryker can carry 9 dismounts just like wheeled version, simple as that.

Do you understand that there are no 6 or 7 soldier squads in US Army anymore? Neither US Army needs to follow other nations solutions, as they have their own experiences from real battlefields, not some pure theory guess work.

It is notable that on each programme, article they always talk about non-existing APS as main protection improvement, for instance in Russia they never rely (keyword) on them to achieve main requirements.
No, you do not understand. There is no APS choosen yet, there are promising designs that are tested, but none is choosen yet, neither these drawings represent protection levels of final products armor. This is only projection, what can be expected but is not nececary to be expected. You realy do not understand such simple things?

Besides this, GCV is designed to have better survivability against IED and mine threats, which means thick and heavy belly armor.

Yes, but it does not mean that much lighter plattform with simpler armament is not able to meet protection requirement with additional armour and not rely on APS, but another thing is weight increase due to bigger number of crew and another issues as seen in GCV (heavier than tank).

Russians made a more correct approach. There will be heavy IFV, transport based on Armata, analogue to GCV, but also on medium weighted plattforms, Kurganets-25 and Bumerang, fulfilling their niche. It is not efficient to switch just to heavier vehicle, and problems would appear

- Costly, not possible to entirely replace current fleet => increase of passengers to 9 to meet number => increase in weight, cost, reduction in mobility and overall efficiency.
But nobody says that GCV IFV will completely replace M2 series, are you not understanding this? If not then go back to school to learn english, because you have problems even with the most basic text it seems.

There will be fleet of GCV IFV, M1 ECP1 MBT, M2 ECP1 and ECP2 IFV, CFV and Non-IFV, Stryker and AMPV. Now you understand? GCV will not replace all other platforms, it will be supplemented by them.

All developement works were made, it actually existed in metal as well as all systems. It would be more correct to say not cancelled, but transferred to new programme, as Armata will base on all developements under better management and readied production base.

There are actually no such developements in rest of countries, they either ceased decades ago and/or were cancelled before becoming anything as FCS because of early conceptual error.
But do you understand that neither other countries might see nececity, nececity yet, or they might have different concept, do you understand that world is not dancing around Russia?

1) Not everything should be private, and there is always need of state control of strategic sectors and of more efficient coordination.

2) Because same as FCS was, it is not more than insecure concept without solid technical work, GCV was cancelled, delayed, restarted...
1) And not everything is private in USA, there is a term GOCO - Goverment Owned Contractor Operated, which means that critical developments, technology, R&D, objects, programs are goverment owned but contractor operated which means more efficent work.

2) You do not know that, FCS was cancelled for other reasons, not understood by you. FCS was cancelled because concept of lightweight armed forces had been deactualized by Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts.

And ob 195 was beyond the rest of the world. Main problems are not always technical, but related to management, cooperation, etc, but what was set in requirement was realised almost in totality, that is why new programme Armata was started. In fact all developements may appear in future, we do not know. For example current matrixes of thermal cameras, based on better materials (3rd generation and on) which will be in Armata are more advanced than what was intended for T-95 as well as probably many fire control system components.
 

hest

New Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
568
Likes
56
And where I said that Namer is IFV? I ask again, are you capable to read with understanding? Do you even learned english in school? Because it seems that you do not understand even simplest, basic argumentation.
Nothing which you said about Namer is relevant. If you talk about IFV then you shouldn't mention non-related object in first place.

I know what is concept of IFV, or rather concepts, because there is no one, single universal concept, as well as there is no, one single universal concept of MBT, attack helicopter etc. etc. etc.
And all are characterised by specific role, mobility and firepower... Just look at all vehicles called as such in current service.

No, you do not understand, GCV is not ready yet, neither this document represent how the final products from both GDLS and BAe will look like. You are making bald conclusions based on document, that has nothing to do with final product, it only shows some patterns, some requirements, and some possible but not nececary solutions, neither it represents how vehicle will be in the end. And of course that AMPV will not be IFV, where I said so? I said that AMPV will perform also role of lither armored multipurpose platform, which means it will be also capable to carry soldiers, thats all, so it will supplement GCV IFV.
We are talking about what should serve as next IFV, and currently they pretend to have only heavy GCV with it's disadvantages and no diversification against world practice.

Now, current squad is 9 soldiers, check US Army structure, the standard squad is 9 soldiers, but there is problem because currently used IFV can carry only 6 or 7 dismounts, which means that squads are needed to be divided by several vehicles, which is not optimal.

AMPV will carry as many dismounts as choosen design will permitt, Non-IFV M2 based platform can also carry approx 9 dismounts (no turret), Tracked Stryker can carry 9 dismounts just like wheeled version, simple as that.
Currently it is 7 and it is world practice. We are talking about IFV which has more limitations due to weapon system and that is the optimum number. Increase would require significant cost and increase in weight with no real advantage, and it is only pursued because they cannot afford necessary number of vehicles, but that itself is not solution but further cost increase and reduction in performance.

No, you do not understand. There is no APS choosen yet, there are promising designs that are tested, but none is choosen yet, neither these drawings represent protection levels of final products armor. This is only projection, what can be expected but is not nececary to be expected. You realy do not understand such simple things?
It is perfectly understandable that increased crew of 12 will make vehicle significantly heavier, add necessary up armouring and weight rises exponentially, it is normal that APS which is not reliable and does not exist could be the only way to meet protection requirement and that is result of erroneous concept, it is not surprising that whole programme was previously cancelled and it is being reconsidered.

But nobody says that GCV IFV will completely replace M2 series, are you not understanding this? If not then go back to school to learn english, because you have problems even with the most basic text it seems.

There will be fleet of GCV IFV, M1 ECP1 MBT, M2 ECP1 and ECP2 IFV, CFV and Non-IFV, Stryker and AMPV. Now you understand? GCV will not replace all other platforms, it will be supplemented by them.
We are talking about IFV, what else is intented to serve apart from overweighted GVC ?

2) You do not know that, FCS was cancelled for other reasons, not understood by you. FCS was cancelled because concept of lightweight armed forces had been deactualized by Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts.[/QUOTE]
That is common to all countries.

FCS was very erroneous in concept and requirements which resulted in huge expense and no results at all. It was useless for real conflict both theoretically and technically as no requirements were met anyway.
 
Last edited:

Damian

New Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
4,836
Likes
2,202
Nothing which you said about Namer is relevant. If you talk about IFV then you shouldn't mention non-related object in first place.
It is very relevant because Namer is contender in GCV program, as GDLS alternative for new IFV. Besides this Namer was tested in IFV configuration by IDF with unmanned turret armed with automatic cannon, coaxial machine gun and ATGM's.

There is no reason to not mention Namer, as it is very good design.

And all are characterised by specific role, mobility and firepower... Just look at all vehicles called as such in current service.
Why should I or anyone else look at current vehicles? Contrary to you I look in to future, and I do not see any role for lightweight tracked vehicles as first line weapons, where threats are far more dangerous than in second line.

Even small IED made from mortar round can be deadly for lightweight IFV, I seen many examples. There is no future for such vehicles, they are too vurnable.


We are talking about what should serve as next IFV, and currently they pretend to have only heavy GCV with it's disadvantages and no diversification against world practice.
You seems to not understand, so I will repeat.

US Army plans to have heavy IFV developed within GCV program, that will be supplemented by M2A2 ODS-SA and M2A3, as well as M3A2 ODS-SA and M3A3 + AMPV. What part of this you do not understand?

Currently it is 7 and it is world practice. We are talking about IFV which has more limitations due to weapon system and that is the optimum number. Increase would require significant cost and increase in weight with no real advantage, and it is only pursued because they cannot afford necessary number of vehicles, but that itself is not solution but further cost increase and reduction in performance.
No, current number of soldiers in US Army squad is 9, you have obsolete informations, even in GCV document it is 9, you do not understand as it seems that because M2 IFV can take only 6 to 7 dismounts, it is nececity to split squads in to sections and carried by different vehicles in platoon, which means less soldiers in platoon. This is why GCV is needed to carry 9 soldiers so in each GCV IFV in platoon there will be 9 soldiers, so more soldiers were be avaiable for commander.

It is perfectly understandable that increased crew of 12 will make vehicle significantly heavier, add necessary up armouring and weight rises exponentially, it is normal that APS which is not reliable and does not exist could be the only way to meet protection requirement and that is result of erroneous concept, it is not surprising that whole programme was previously cancelled and it is being reconsidered.
Namer carry 3 crew members and 9 dismounts, the only thing it lacks is unmanned turret with heavier weapon. So Namer can be adapted as GCV or can be used as base for new vehicle by GDLS, that is manufacturer of Namer. Simple as that.

We are talking about IFV, what else is intented to serve apart from overweighted GVC ?
Are you unable to read? As I wrote GCV IFV will serve alongside M1 ECP1, M2 and M3 ECP1-ECP2 and AMPV, what is so difficult to understand here?

I agree that not everybody has such necessity, thus European countries have been reducing expenses and they are fully right, but from technical aspect it serves as good example.
Russia is hardly a good example.

That is common to all countries.

FCS was very erroneous in concept and requirements which resulted in huge expense and no results at all. It was useless for real conflict both theoretically and technically as no requirements were met anyway.
From where you know that no requirement was not met? You have access to US Army classiefied documents? No, so maybe stop writing such nonsense, you know nothing.

It was not impossibility from developemental view (which succeeded) but management and investment. For examples you should look at US, FCS, etc.
The problem with FCS, which you do not know, is that, original FCS was 40 tons tank, but then Rumsfeld as politician started to interfere with military plans, and completely redesigned the whole idea, some people in the army connected to him were gained more power, and everything was ----ed up. You do not know this because of your poor knowledge about US R&D programs.

OT.
 
Last edited:

hest

New Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
568
Likes
56
It is very relevant because Namer is contender in GCV program, as GDLS alternative for new IFV. Besides this Namer was tested in IFV configuration by IDF with unmanned turret armed with automatic cannon, coaxial machine gun and ATGM's.

There is no reason to not mention Namer, as it is very good design.
And now you contradict yourself.

they (Israelis) argument that IFV in their experiences is completely failed idea, because normally their APC's are cooperating closely with tanks, so in their view there is no need for IFV armed with automatic cannon and ATGM's.
You started comparison with vehicle which you aknowledged it was not IFV. It is obvious that decent armament is needed to perform role, and you argue about capacity of plain carrier without considering space for weapons system and that is why comparison is not correct.

Why should I or anyone else look at current vehicles? Contrary to you I look in to future, and I do not see any role for lightweight tracked vehicles as first line weapons, where threats are far more dangerous than in second line.
Everything has it's niche, Puma for example is versatile vehicle in different versions without overweight, BMP has swim capability and in addition there are also will be heavier vehicles, there are important requirements to be met in mobility, firepower and just GCV is not valid for everything.


You seems to not understand, so I will repeat.

US Army plans to have heavy IFV developed within GCV program, that will be supplemented by M2A2 ODS-SA and M2A3, as well as M3A2 ODS-SA and M3A3 + AMPV. What part of this you do not understand?
Bradley will be replaced by GCV in IFV role, rest does not relate.

No, current number of soldiers in US Army squad is 9, you have obsolete informations, even in GCV document it is 9, you do not understand as it seems that because M2 IFV can take only 6 to 7 dismounts, it is nececity to split squads in to sections and carried by different vehicles in platoon, which means less soldiers in platoon. This is why GCV is needed to carry 9 soldiers so in each GCV IFV in platoon there will be 9 soldiers, so more soldiers were be avaiable for commander.
Issue is wheter it is justified to increase dismount number in IFV with all disadvantages, and it is only because there will not be enought vehicles to afford.

Russia is hardly a good example.
ob 195, Armata, rest of developements are examples of technical advances.

From where you know that no requirement was not met? You have access to US Army classiefied documents? No, so maybe stop writing such nonsense, you know nothing.
Because contracts were cancelled and developements were ceased.
 
Last edited:

Damian

New Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
4,836
Likes
2,202
You started comparison with vehicle which you aknowledged it was not IFV. It is obvious that decent armament is needed to perform role, and you argue about capacity of plain carrier without considering space for weapons system and that is why comparison is not correct.
Namer can be both HIFV and HAPC, because it's armament systems are based on umanned remotely controlled weapon systems, everything depends on RWS module installed. IDF do not see need for such RWS's but Namer was tested with success with different also heavy modules.

Everything has it's niche, Puma for example is versatile vehicle in different versions without overweight, BMP has swim capability and in addition there are also will be heavier vehicles, there are important requirements to be met in mobility, firepower and just GCV is not valid for everything.
GCV grown on different experiences and needs, US Army want's ABCT's to be heavy force with SBCT's as medium force and IBCT's as light forces, simple as that.

Russia never lost Caucasus, there is no threat of losing it.

You should stop believing in propaganda, when in fact US forces are beaten every time by third worlders. How many scum died in that war, which forced retirement ?
Bradley will be replaced by GCV in IFV role, rest does not relate.
Not entirely, learn english, read documents.

Issue is wheter it is justified to increase dismount number in IFV with all disadvantages, and it is only because there will not be enought vehicles to afford.
Heh, you pretend to be smarter than proffesional soldiers and officers who knows better what they need... right.

ob 195, Armata, rest of developements are examples of technical advances.
You have no proof about technical advances, neither it is certain that "Armata" will be inducted in to service, it might be as well cancelled.

Because contracts were cancelled and developements were ceased.
This is not explanation.
 
Last edited:

militarysta

New Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
2,110
Likes
789
Ob 195 was interesting, because they set very high requirements, far from rest of world level and they were mostly met by developers.
Yeeeah, ececially NGP (EGS prototype) and Tank Block III. Sorry not only in Soviet Union concpetion was the same...
In FRG, CCCP, and USA there was the same idea for new generation tank, and whole FCS's wher very simmilar to eacht others.


Originally it's FCS TO5-SKO was composed by 7 channels with synthesis of different wavelenght information to allow engagement under all ranges and circumstances with same effectiveness, and inmunne to countermeasures.

- Low light TV 0.4-0.7 micrometers
- Near infrared 0.75-1.4 micrometers
- Thermal 3-5 micrometers
- Thermal 8-12 micrometers
- Millimeter wave radar
- Lidar
- External, receiving information from another source (vehicle, etc), radiochannel

Also much better rangefinders were developed, capable to operate in harsh conditions, all processes of target aquisition and engagement weere automated, and components, including matrixes of thermal cameras were domestic.
Would You be so kind and give sources of that? About "TO5-SKO" of course becouse all rest is comfimend in other sources.-about this multi channel FCS.


It was later simplified but met requirements, there was nothing close to it. Main reasons behind programme issues were management and inmature production base, so next generation vehicle developement will succeed under newer programme.
Lindsky, Ob.195 was canceled dute to FCS problems, in 90's and 2000's it was impossible in Russia to bulid sucht modern FCS. Just check problem whit Ka-50SzN, whit Ka-52, Mi-28N, whit Su-25T All is the same problem like in Ob.195:
- lack of BMS
- to small level of target automated aquisition and automated engagement
- not very good thermal cameras
-other problems
In fact whole industry in two last decades was not able to made sucht FCS.

Now Armata is just refresh Ob.195 whit propably 125mm gun, and newer (but simpler then never-exist Ob.195) FCS.
 

hest

New Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
568
Likes
56
Yeeeah, ececially NGP (EGS prototype) and Tank Block III. Sorry not only in Soviet Union concpetion was the same...
In FRG, CCCP, and USA there was the same idea for new generation tank, and whole FCS's wher very simmilar to eacht others.
Those projects never passed from concept or model and never reached same level, and could you tell any details about those advanced FCS ?

Would You be so kind and give sources of that? About "TO5-SKO" of course becouse all rest is comfimend in other sources.-about this multi channel FCS.
TO5-S (main index) and suffix refferring to different channels (KO, 01,2.. TV, etc) Yes, it was mentioned in annual reports from developing entities, here you can look at some compilation

ВИФ2 NE: Ветка : СУО Т-95

Lindsky, Ob.195 was canceled dute to FCS problems, in 90's and 2000's it was impossible in Russia to bulid sucht modern FCS. Just check problem whit Ka-50SzN, whit Ka-52, Mi-28N, whit Su-25T All is the same problem like in Ob.195:
- lack of BMS
- to small level of target automated aquisition and automated engagement
- not very good thermal cameras
-other problems
In fact whole industry in two last decades was not able to made sucht FCS.
Those serial examples do not represent level when they entered service, and current, future versions are in good level, current Ka-52 (already with new elements, radar) and newer Mi-28NM for example, but let's leave aviation now.

They succeeded in developement of algorythms for synthesis of different spectrum channels under domestic elementary base, as well as many elements (thermal camera matrix of second generation, Kondor, Irbis-K, it was available and no worse than French), there were problems with some elements but later requirement was simplified and according to reports tank did pass trials.

Main reason behind cancellation was not FCS, which was acepted in simpler form, (tank was ready for service) but needed expense in developement of totally new production base, which was result of management, investment, etc, so new programme was started.

Now Armata is just refresh Ob.195 whit propably 125mm gun, and newer (but simpler then never-exist Ob.195) FCS.
It is similar to Kurganets and Kurganets-25 (new official project). According to official, Armata will be essentially the same in configuration (crew placement, unmanned turret), ballistic protection, powerplant (engine, transmission...), that is directly from Ob 195. FCS requirement is not the original, but it will come from previous successess and newer developements, in fact in some aspects it will be better, (for example now there are more advanced thermal matrixes of 3rd generation level), and it is soon to say.

In firepower it will also be the same idea, vertical autoloader within hull and new gun system with bigger chamber volume and improved ballistics, new APFSDS are of lenght of a metre (penetrator), heavier but retain highest optimal velocity, even if gun will retain 125mm caliber, which is likely, it would have nothing to do with current system, of course future is not known, same as wheter if all guided projectiles developed under ob 195 will be realised (and there were plenty of interesting programmes).
 

Damian

New Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
4,836
Likes
2,202
There is definetly no doubt that if "Armata" based MBT will be inducted in to service, for some time it will be best MBT, however the question is how long, how long it will take untill other countries will not restart all projects to design and manufacture next generation MBT's.

This is ironic, but the who is first, could be quickly surpassed by the competition, that will analize it's solutions, and design a proper counter solution.

I think that the critical for new MBT's won't be their overall design, but new technologies, especially the ones that are responsible for materials, new metal alloys, new non metallic materials, without them every design is very close to it's limits.

But then again, if new material will be avaiable, it will bring to a question, if there is nececity to design a tank or in general vehicles with unmanned turrets and weapon modules, when the same or possibly higher protection level with less weight could be achieved with these new materials while maintaining classic design.

And this is very serious problem, because unmanned turrets pose a serious problem to situational awareness of crew, and several other issues, which were pointed out by tank crews members when I asked them about unmanned turret and placing crews completely in hull.
 
Last edited:

militarysta

New Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
2,110
Likes
789
Those projects never passed from concept or model and never reached same level, and could you tell any details about those advanced FCS ?
About NGP (and EGS) and TTB and TankBlockIII? In both cases there was developed dozen of prototypes most of them is stil OPSPEC, but FCS had exatly the same idea like in Ob.195:
1) BMS and auto allocation targets for tanks in platoon and company
2) auto detection and tracking targets
3) multi-channel FCS based in TV,IR, thermal, radar and laser sensors
4) auto matching FCS sensor based on terain and weather conditions
5) possibility to auto angage targets without human
6) helments for commander and guner (or driver) wiht display of battlefield information and images from sensors
7) "glass cocpit"
In fact in NGP and EGS prototype Germans try to put only two person crew becouse whole
automation allow to resignation from gunner -becouse whole FCS (in idea) should be able to autotracking and auto angage targes.
In Ob.195 and TTB and TankBlockIII 3 persons crews was done.
Really I can't see any advantages in Ob,.195 FCS in compare to NGP or TTB. But fro the other hand -I can't see any disadvantages. It was on the same leve on conception.
And in 90's it was impossible to developed so complicated FCS in Russian and in Germany and in USA.


TO5-S (main index) and suffix refferring to different channels (KO, 01,2.. TV, etc) Yes, it was mentioned in annual reports from developing entities, here you can look at some compilation

ВИФ2 NE: Ветка : СУО Т-95
Thanks! :)

Those serial examples do not represent level when they entered service, and current, future versions are in good level, current Ka-52 (already with new elements, radar) and newer Mi-28NM for example, but let's leave aviation now.

They succeeded in developement of algorythms for synthesis of different spectrum channels under domestic elementary base, as well as many elements (thermal camera matrix of second generation, Kondor, Irbis-K, it was available and no worse than French), there were problems with some elements but later requirement was simplified and according to reports tank did pass trials.
In case one person Ka-50(and N, SzN and other veriosn) and Su-25T is the same story like in tank IV gen. FCS. In fact both: Ka-50 and Su-25T was in idea only armoured anti-armour "sting" in whole big complex mady by BMS, detection base od UAV, radars, recon helos and planes etc. Problems where very close.
In Ka-52 and Mi-28N tak a look how long time take in Russia to end (end it sill nod ended yet!) whole FCS for all weather condition and 24h able fight. Problem in both case are the same like in Ob.195 case.


Main reason behind cancellation was not FCS, which was acepted in simpler form, (tank was ready for service) but needed expense in developement of totally new production base, which was result of management, investment, etc, so new programme was started.
It's not true IMHO. Cost is one problem - after colapse SovietUnion and theribble for Russia times (Jelcyn) it was maybe true, but in 2000;s? Sorry but all rumors, and itervievs whit VIP close to UVZ showne that FCS whas the bigest problem, becouse those "simpler form" whas close to Ramka used in BMPT-2. Very modern FCS but for new tank whit all crew in hull it was not enought (situation awarness problem).




, Armata will be essentially the same in configuration (crew placement, unmanned turret), ballistic protection, powerplant (engine, transmission...), that is directly from Ob 195. FCS requirement is not the original, but it will come from previous successess and newer developements, in fact in some aspects it will be better, (for example now there are more advanced thermal matrixes of 3rd generation level), and it is soon to say.
Yes, it's true and obvious - Armata is refresh Ob.195, and only in that scenario calender whit 2015 is possible. So I agree in that case.

In firepower it will also be the same idea, vertical autoloader within hull and new gun system with bigger chamber volume and improved ballistics, new APFSDS are of lenght of a metre (penetrator), heavier but retain highest optimal velocity, even if gun will retain 125mm caliber, which is likely, it would have nothing to do with current system, of course future is not known, same as wheter if all guided projectiles developed under ob 195 will be realised (and there were plenty of interesting programmes).
We will see...
 

Damian

New Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
4,836
Likes
2,202
As for Americans, they developed universal fire control system codenamed SAVA, it had modular and universal design, that permitted it to be used in next generation MBT, IFV etc. etc. etc

These components were developed or were under development for Armored Systems Modernization program.


ASM Program - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.gao.gov/assets/160/150978.pdf
http://edocs.nps.edu/npspubs/scholarly/theses/1992/Jun/92Jun_Boelke.pdf

ASM was cancelled just after collapse of Soviet Union when threat just disappeard. But fundamentaly and ironicaly ASM program is, sort of a precursor for "Armata" and "Kurganets" programs in Russia.



BTW it appears that TTB was a test bed for M1 Block III, and it would look more or less like TTB, perhaps with different armament and other components, but the basic vehicle concept was there.

What is a mystery are tests results.

Oh one more thing, some of these prototypes are send to Anniston Army Depot and there is a big chance that they will be refurbished. Especially the prototypes kept in Aberdeen Proving Grounds are send there, and later these (hopefully after refubishement) will be send to different Army installations and museums.
 
Last edited:

hest

New Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
568
Likes
56
About NGP (and EGS) and TTB and TankBlockIII? In both cases there was developed dozen of prototypes most of them is stil OPSPEC, but FCS had exatly the same idea like in Ob.195:
1) BMS and auto allocation targets for tanks in platoon and company
2) auto detection and tracking targets
3) multi-channel FCS based in TV,IR, thermal, radar and laser sensors
4) auto matching FCS sensor based on terain and weather conditions
5) possibility to auto angage targets without human
6) helments for commander and guner (or driver) wiht display of battlefield information and images from sensors
7) "glass cocpit"
In fact in NGP and EGS prototype Germans try to put only two person crew becouse whole
automation allow to resignation from gunner -becouse whole FCS (in idea) should be able to autotracking and auto angage targes.
In Ob.195 and TTB and TankBlockIII 3 persons crews was done.
Really I can't see any advantages in Ob,.195 FCS in compare to NGP or TTB. But fro the other hand -I can't see any disadvantages. It was on the same leve on conception.
And in 90's it was impossible to developed so complicated FCS in Russian and in Germany and in USA.
It is common concept, there was also Russian tank project with 2 crew... But difference is that those projects were never realised on the level of Ob 195, there were only models, same as ob 640, so comparison would not be really valid, like to compare ob 195to Molot in technical aspect.

In case one person Ka-50(and N, SzN and other veriosn) and Su-25T is the same story like in tank IV gen. FCS. In fact both: Ka-50 and Su-25T was in idea only armoured anti-armour "sting" in whole big complex mady by BMS, detection base od UAV, radars, recon helos and planes etc. Problems where very close.
In Ka-52 and Mi-28N tak a look how long time take in Russia to end (end it sill nod ended yet!) whole FCS for all weather condition and 24h able fight. Problem in both case are the same like in Ob.195 case.
It is not same situation really, these are level of 90s when there were no orders and investment, modernisations were mostly realised for export at own initiative and not without problems, but there is significant improvement. For example Mi-28N is fully capable at night and is being produced as well as Ka-52 (with radar already) and soon there will be versions in most advanced level, but they represent developements of another time period.

It's not true IMHO. Cost is one problem - after colapse SovietUnion and theribble for Russia times (Jelcyn) it was maybe true, but in 2000;s? Sorry but all rumors, and itervievs whit VIP close to UVZ showne that FCS whas the bigest problem, becouse those "simpler form" whas close to Ramka used in BMPT-2. Very modern FCS but for new tank whit all crew in hull it was not enought (situation awarness problem).
There were issues with cooperation, financiation (management) and cost escalations which were technically reflected, they later renounced to original requirement for FCS because of problems with elements (channels) and it was realised in simplified way, and they were not related with situational awareness because of isolated compartment, that was not the problem (in fact it is same for Armata).

Cost was not related to vehicle itself. It required completely new production base of all facilities and big investment which the goverment refused, that is main reason.

Yes, it's true and obvious - Armata is refresh Ob.195, and only in that scenario calender whit 2015 is possible. So I agree in that case.
Most important thing is to prepare for production, construction of new facilities, equipement... as most of developements are already done.

In fact all these apparently new projects which appeared 2 years earlier are based on previous developements

Gilza, etc (1990-2000s)... -> Bumerang
Kurganets (early 2000s) -> Kurganets-25
Ob 195 -> Armata

etc...
 
Last edited:

volna

New Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2012
Messages
29
Likes
1
Hello! Lidsky,
Could you provide more info about T-95 FCS?Such like the Orion TI sight and the MMW radar.
Thanks in advance!BTW,I'm fresh here!
 

Damian

New Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
4,836
Likes
2,202
I doubt that many informations can be avaiable, some things should be classified... and knowing the level of secrecy kept around Object 195, I would be more than surprised if such informations would be provided for public knowledge.
 
Last edited:

militarysta

New Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
2,110
Likes
789
Welcome back.

About tank engine and transmissions.
First - engine life time. It's sligtly sophisticated becouse in USA, SovietUnion, now Russia and Ukraina all engine life time (time to rebuild) is given in hours, in Germany it's given in kg used fuel.
Whole life time looks like this:



As we can see MB873 have 2-3x times better life time. It is due to very downgraded power in MB873 and hight quality engine parts. In fact MB can be forced to 1800HP only by change soft in engine. And Swedish Strv.122 have this modyfiaction. After few more modes (cooling, new turnbo, etc) improved MB873 achive 2038HP. But for Germans it wan't the point and MB873 have downgraded HP to incarese lifetime. The result is marvelous -aspecially in compare to the older engines.

Next factor is how many HP power is transfered to transmission. All engine lost some % HP for coling systems and others. Unfortunatly I can't find data for 6TD-1 and 6TD-2 and 5TDF. Akim, maybe You have some infos about this?
Data found in many sources:
engine-Horse Power - power lost due to cooling and others (%) - Horse Power avaible on transmission
MB873 1500HP - 220HP (14,5%) - 1280HP avaible on transmission
AGT-1500 1500HP - 379HP (25%) - 1121HP avaible on transmission
GDT-1250 -1250HP - 245HP (20%) -1005HP avaible on transmission
V84 - 840HP - 95HP (11%) - 745HP avaible on transmission
improved AGT-1500 - 1500HP - 131HP (~12%) - 1358HP avaible on transmission

The big unkown are: 5TDF and 6TD-1 and 6TD-2, and MB833

Sourses for AGT-1500:
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a234998.pdf
very good pfd
pages: page.55 ("Transmission and final drive")
page.148 ("Engine power in vehicle (installed)")
page.59 (Table and NHP values)
 
Last edited:

Articles

Top