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@ Damian
Can you make a drawing of what you think would be an ideal MBT? This would be interesting.
Can you make a drawing of what you think would be an ideal MBT? This would be interesting.
Hahaha! Nice. Cost effective anti-IED.Have a break for few minutes,
please continue.............
Unfortunetly my drawing skills are poor.@ Damian
Can you make a drawing of what you think would be an ideal MBT? This would be interesting.
For example?I wouldn't be so confident on values given in army manuals as they have "motivations" and they are not necesarily real, some of these values are higher than those of actual performance.
Well it's depend on data as You see. Accoding to the polish army sources:PRONIT has worse characteristics than Mango ?
You don't understand me. Im not talking that T-90A or SA or S have only 560mm RHA vs APFSDS. It's too low of course.Those value and about "NATO ~1985 level" was about that Ajrun and Indian T-90S test where done by using obsolete ammo, and not very modern Israeli CL Mk.2 - Polish PRONIT is clone of this ammo. And if Ajrun and T-90S windstand that ammo means nothing becouse ammo was obsolate. So this whole talks build on sentense "Ajrun have super-duper armour becouse windtsand all 120 and 125mm ammo" is bullshit becouse Indian haven't really modern ammo for test. It's all. It's the same shit like talking that T-90A have brilliant armour becouse windtand on tests BM42. Or Leopard-2A4 have brllant ammo becouse after DDR fail on test 2A4 windstand 3BM22 for 150m distance. Thos two examples are real but talks nothing about armour becouse both round where obsolate - 3Bm22 in Leo2A4 tests, and BM42 in T-90A tests. The same is now about Ajrun test when Cl Mk.2 was used.It is not correct about "NATO 1984-1986 level"
Normally latest rounds are represented with higher performance, for example DM-53 and M829A2 (which is not even in operation by said army )For example?
I hear much talk about Russia losing market in favour of Poles, Israelis and whoever because they reportedly do not offer APFSDS with increased lenght up to 680 mm (allowed by old autoloader), but PRONIT which If I am correct is longer and supposed to be more modern does not achieve anything but sligthly better parameter in penetration loss per distance.Well it's depend on data as You see. Accoding to the polish army sources:
3BM42 -P0:580 P2500:460
PRONIT -P0:560 P2500:460
It have thq same performances on large distance, and slighty lower on P0 dstance. For the other sides - other sources give for 3BM42 guaranteed perforaton for 2000m ~450mm RHA and achaivble perforation 500mm RHA, when pronit had guaranteed 520mm for 2000m.
So You can choose
T-90A tests are performed every year with higher requirements and it is not correct to say it is with old ammunition. From NII Stali we know for example that they use new round Svinets-1.You don't understand me. Im not talking that T-90A or SA or S have only 560mm RHA vs APFSDS. It's too low of course.Those value and about "NATO ~1985 level" was about that Ajrun and Indian T-90S test where done by using obsolete ammo, and not very modern Israeli CL Mk.2 - Polish PRONIT is clone of this ammo. And if Ajrun and T-90S windstand that ammo means nothing becouse ammo was obsolate. So this whole talks build on sentense "Ajrun have super-duper armour becouse windtsand all 120 and 125mm ammo" is bullshit becouse Indian haven't really modern ammo for test. It's all. It's the same shit like talking that T-90A have brilliant armour becouse windtand on tests BM42. Or Leopard-2A4 have brllant ammo becouse after DDR fail on test 2A4 windstand 3BM22 for 150m distance. Thos two examples are real but talks nothing about armour becouse both round where obsolate - 3Bm22 in Leo2A4 tests, and BM42 in T-90A tests. The same is now about Ajrun test when Cl Mk.2 was used.
Yes, as I said earlier Soviet rounds were tested against special composite armour blocks which I described, as well as on steel.BTW:
Lindsky please remembert that Soiet and now Russian ammo norm are beter (harder to achive) then NATOs ones. In NATO some round have some "value" when in tested round's group is peforation on some level for 50% rounds +1. In Russia it is 80%.
So in fact russian 450mm for 3BM42 means "80% tested rounds had 450mm RHA for 2000m" and NATO ~520-540mm for DM33 means "50% +1 rounds had those value for 2000m. And when polish WITU tetsed DM33A1 using Russian/Soviet norms then those round have not 540mm RHA but...470mm RHA for 2000m for 80% rounds.
Second problem is that perforation achivable is always better then guaranteed: for BM42 it is 450mm for 2000m and 500mm RHA for 2000m. It's chuge diffrence. The same about all western ammo. Next problem is that - RHA norm in not norm. It's huge diffrence in HB scale, on one plate on stack plates, and NATO tetsed heir round on "NATO tripled heavy target" not on RHA plates.
So this whole "mm RHA for roundXX" are really risky. There is big diffrence on west and on est in norms, testing ammmo, and other.
Wrong, PRONIT was designed to fit in to standard T-72 series autoloader, simply because we do not have modified one that can use longer rounds.but PRONIT which If I am correct is longer and supposed to be more modern does not achieve anything but sligthly better parameter in penetration loss per distance.
It is a someone fantasy with M829A2 tests. M829 series are not exported by the US to anyone, GDLS manufactures export rounds of KEW series (KEW, KEW-A1 and KEW-A2), while M829 series are manufactured by ATK only for US Armed Forces.About Indian T-90S, initial test was performed by Russian delegation reportedly with modern Western ammunition (M829A2 or such), certainly they would not show capabilities with Mango.
Read again. Standart autoloader allows improvement over Mango with lenght of about 680 mm.Wrong, PRONIT was designed to fit in to standard T-72 series autoloader, simply because we do not have modified one that can use longer rounds.
It is not really difficult to get modern projectiles for test, of similar level. And purchase of M829A2 itself could also be possible.It is a someone fantasy with M829A2 tests. M829 series are not exported by the US to anyone, GDLS manufactures export rounds of KEW series (KEW, KEW-A1 and KEW-A2), while M829 series are manufactured by ATK only for US Armed Forces.
As far as I know, PRONIT was nothing special, and there were problems with penetrators because they were not manufactured in Poland but in Israel, 50% of manufactured there penetrators were low quality.Read again. Standart autoloader allows improvement over Mango with lenght of about 680 mm.
Purchasing of M829A2 is not possible, as I said, US Congress prohibited any exports of M829 series, the export ammunitions are KEW series, simple as that, what again You do not understand here?It is not really difficult to get modern projectiles for test, of similar level. And purchase of M829A2 itself could also be possible.
This is nothing more than a fantasy for gamers.I sometimes use the tables in this site for a quick reference on armor and ammo data
Tank Protection Levels
Of course latest rounds in normal caountry whit modern tank industry (Germany, USA, Russia, France) should have higher performance, but answer yourself for one question - is the task is to perforate tank armour or stack RHA plates? Maybe older rounds (upt to ~1995) are better in penetration RHA plates, and cast steel targets, and more modern are weaker in perforation stupid RHA plates but better in perforation multialyer armour, or armour protected by ERA? hmm?Normally latest rounds are represented with higher performance, for example DM-53 and M829A2 (which is not even in operation by said army )
Ths values are for 2000m, and this:Most rational values given for M829A2 are from point blank from 750 mm (max) and under...
Well those values are used in polish 10TkBde (Leopard-2A4) during trening and in manuals, etc. I know thos values looks trange but IMHO they are correct.Authors of these publications do not necessarily have any access to classified information and they have no need to represent really true figures. They take much information from open sources and make modifications to suit them.
Polish ex-PRONIT is 570mm lenght BM42 is 574mm long. So it's almoust the same.I hear much talk about Russia losing market in favour of Poles, Israelis and whoever because they reportedly do not offer APFSDS with increased lenght up to 680 mm (allowed by old autoloader), but PRONIT which If I am correct is longer and supposed to be more modern does not achieve anything but sligthly better parameter in penetration loss per distance.
And I guess performance would be similar in same test conditions.
There was no way for M829A2. Max for western ammo maybe it was some like KWE so based on rejected by Germans DM43 whit obsolate monoblock penetrator.About Indian T-90S, initial test was performed by Russian delegation reportedly with modern Western ammunition (M829A2 or such), certainly they would not show capabilities with Mango.
I would be now quiet, do not tell him too much.Maybe older rounds (upt to ~1995) are better in penetration RHA plates, and cast steel targets, and more modern are weaker in perforation stupid RHA plates but better in perforation multialyer armour, or armour protected by ERA? hmm?
Max for western ammo maybe it was some like KWE so based on rejected by Germans DM43 whit obsolate monoblock penetrator.
I'am more concerned about OPSEC rules of NATO countries than Russian designers, they definetly know better, but it does not mean, that if me or Militarysta knowing something unofficialy, we should talk about this, especially on internet forum.lol, damian think he can hide info from russian designers. I bet they know better than both of you and militarysta in topic weapon vs armor.
It's not about OPSPEC but law problem in Poland. Something may be known to designers, maybe all known facts. Why not? But the problem is law in Poland and OPSPEC rulles. Any post is censored by myself or Damian becouse some fact are know and included in pdfs or literature (ussaly I give sources) but other data should be not given in public forum -for example for Afghanistan war reson, when Leopard-2 (Dutch, Candian) and AMV-"Rosomak" (Poland) are usinig in combat. One world to many and someone can be killed by RPG in Paria-AMV. So I tryied to write post without (IMHO) danger facts about some vehicles. So indeed somethimes "big nice cup of shut the f*** up" is the best option.lol, damian think he can hide info from russian designers. I bet they know better than both of you and militarysta in topic weapon vs armor.
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