Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[Akim]

T-62M have chance to perforate armor of T-72B, for example it's side armor, I doubt that front armor can be perforated by 2A20 gun.

There is such possibility at a hit in the mask of gun.

 

[Damian]

There is such possibility at a hit in the mask of gun.

Well yes of course, but what is probability to hit weak zones in gun mantle mask or driver periscope? Rather not high, especially in battle.

As for T-72SIM-1, IMHO the closest analogs for him are PT-91, T-64BV and T-80BV, but it is vastly inferior tank, especially in terms of protection compared to T-72B and T-90 series. Definetly it have better FCS than T-72B.

 

[Damian]

This might be interesting.

ZTZ-99 (dunno what subvariant, maybe G or maybe A1) without dynamic protection installed.

It seems that in this small turret bustle, there are FCS components stored. We can also see that the actuall front turret armor modules are not very thick. I seen even on TankNet where someone was providing messurements of the front turret armor thickness. Front hull is probably similiar to T-72 series.

 

[p2prada]

In future it should be composed of 2300 MBTs Armata, and 9000-10000 second line/reserve with repaired/modernised T-72B, T-90 and some T-80 variants.

By the time Russia gets 2300 Armata. The old T-72Bs and T-80s will be going out.

I don't think Russia will make anything more than 200 tanks a year.

 

[Apollyon]

American Tank TV-8

 

[Damian]

TV-8 was one of many experimental tanks developed during 1950's-1970's period on both sides of the Iron Curtain.

In fact it was very interesting design, and should not be laughed due to it's exotic design. For these times it have very interesting spaced armor design for turret (where whole crew was placed - a predecessor of the MBT-70 design).

Also in theory it could swim very well.

 

[hest]

Sorry but it's not true. That what Russians have now is that what I had posted erlier ~690 quite modern tank on duty (T-90A, T-90, T-80U) and 200 T-72BA + ~500 nacked Ob.184 (T-72B). Rest is just junk, and need rebuild in factories.

If we leave apart your considerations, as I said, in current service, 2000 (T-90A, T-80BV, T-80U, T-72B modernised and not modernisded). I was merely giving numbers (not arguing what you consider as modern or not). I would not try to calculate specific figures, especially if tanks are upgoing upgrades every year.

If Russian wil be able to produce ~800-1200 Armata it will be greate. It's first, second:
in "second line" will be all this 690 modern (in Russia) tanks today: T-90, T-90A, T-80U. And maybe T-72BA.

You still misunderstood what I said. Rest 8000 (either deployed or in storage). It does not matter if most are not in working condition, they are held and can be overhauled if needed.

About production, it is possible. Have in account that now only Russia is producing new tanks and modernising current force. In Western Europe nothing new is produced at all, such modernisations are not even planned there. So by 2020 what will Western Europe have, a reduced force of dated tanks ?.

And with your criteria, most of European Leopard 2A4 shouldn't be counted (it is level of 80s) but only 2A5-6 ?

Only USA have 2000 modern tanks in operation. Russia have only 210 modern tank - T-90A, and about 480-550 quite modern tnak in operation - T-90 and T-80U. There is additional 220 T-72BA - and this is not modern tank in fact..but vs. Georgian or Asian countrs can be. And about 500 old, not modernisated Ob.184 (T-72B). It's all.

You should get your facts right. I said in operation, Russia has 2000 (no matter your criteria of tank).

And as I said - we take tree any NATO countries with significant tank components it's bigger value then Russian tank fleet.

I still not understand your criteria, in numbers (what I said originally) it is less.

 

[hest]

I don't want to be rude, but dates for Rh are not very good. In fact they are far far from truth:


DM53 from L-55 have about 30% bigger MJ on gun exit -so it will be cira about 15.3MJ

I will answer in corresponding thread.

 

[hest]

By the time Russia gets 2300 Armata. The old T-72Bs and T-80s will be going out.

I don't think Russia will make anything more than 200 tanks a year.

UVZ plant is being modernised for new production and to increase output. In theory it could manufacture 400 tanks per year, but it depends on management, and schedule. I personally do not think they'll achieve it in next few years, but surely in future.

T-72B are being modernised continously and will remain in reserve.

 

[Damian]

T-72B are being modernised continously and will remain in reserve.

Let's be honest, not many of them are modernized, and I mean here real modernization like T-72B2, T-72BA is nothing more than a simple upgrade and refurbishment, nothing else.

 

[hest]

T-72BA is on modern level, only thing is protection which stays on late 80s.

It has good firepower (ability to fire guided munition), new gun 2a46-m5 with modernised autoloader, engine of 1000 hp and modern FCS (better than that of Leopard 2A4 for comparison).

B2 with Relikt is fully on level:cool2:

 

[Damian]

Not every T-72BA is in standard You describe. Some have new sight Sosna-U, some have old sights and FCS. As I said T-72BA is not aimed for modernization, but for refurbishment, and belive me I have a good source on that close to the Uralvagonzavod.

Besides this is it hard to even call T-72BA FCS being better of that from Leopard 2A4, it does not have even Hunter-Killer capability at day, Leopard 2A4 have such capability.

T-72B2 is completely different story, it is aimed to bring tank to completely new level, similiar to for example T-64BM "Bulat" modernization from Ukraine. After such modernization tank is definetly not worse than Leopard 2A4.

 

[p2prada]

About production, it is possible. Have in account that now only Russia is producing new tanks and modernising current force. In Western Europe nothing new is produced at all, such modernisations are not even planned there. So by 2020 what will Western Europe have, a reduced force of dated tanks ?.

I agree with you here. Currently Russia has dated tanks while European armies are more modern due to the lull after the Soviet break up which prevented any major tank modernization in Russia. So, in a decade Russia will have modern tanks while Europe will have to sit and think up a new design to counter Armata while they are upgrading dated older designs.

UVZ plant is being modernised for new production and to increase output. In theory it could manufacture 400 tanks per year, but it depends on management, and schedule. I personally do not think they'll achieve it in next few years, but surely in future.

That is to be seen.

T-72B are being modernised continously and will remain in reserve.

2020 will still make it a 30 year old tank and 40 year old technology. No idea how relevant the Leo 2A4 could be by then.

@Damian

Can you give some info on the T-72B2 upgrade?

 

[Damian]

T-72B2 is also known as T-72BM "Rogatka" (however series manufactured T-72B2 might be slightly different than T-72BM "Rogatka" presented several years ago).

Vehicle have new dynamic protection 4S23 "Relikt", new main gun, new FCS, new engine etc.

There was also proposed similiar upgrade for T-80B, called T-80BM.

 

[p2prada]

Ah yes. I remember now. Thanks for refreshing my memory.

 

[Damian]

This seems to be another proposal of T-72B upgrade... if this is T-72B not earlier variant.

But IMHO T-64BM "Bulat" is more elegant and in some terms better vehicle.

And with powered cupola with remotly controled machine gun, commander is much more safe when using his machine gun than in case of T-72 series where commander need to open hatch and get out to use his machine gun.

 

[Akim]

But IMHO T-64BM "Bulat" is more elegant and in some terms better vehicle.

And with powered cupola with remotly controled machine gun, commander is much more safe when using his machine gun than in case of T-72 series where commander need to open hatch and get out to use his machine gun.

MOD of Ukraine, while gave up further modernization of Т-64A(B) in BM "Bulat" , and focused on the purchases of BM Oplot and testing of Т-64Е. The latter, costs far cheaper, and in theory, outperforms the on battle characteristics BM Bulat.

 

[hest]

Not every T-72BA is in standard You describe. Some have new sight Sosna-U, some have old sights and FCS. As I said T-72BA is not aimed for modernization, but for refurbishment, and belive me I have a good source on that close to the Uralvagonzavod.

Besides this is it hard to even call T-72BA FCS being better of that from Leopard 2A4, it does not have even Hunter-Killer capability at day, Leopard 2A4 have such capability.

T-72B2 is completely different story, it is aimed to bring tank to completely new level, similiar to for example T-64BM "Bulat" modernization from Ukraine. After such modernization tank is definetly not worse than Leopard 2A4.

There were several T-72BA upgrades. Official T-72BA which MoD orders now each year is what I described. I agree that it is only inexpensive and simple upgrade, but in characteristics it is better than Leopard 2A4 and that was the point.

How not ?? It has advanced FCS Sosna-U with modern thermal sights. Leopard 2A4 is on 80s level and has older first generation thermals.
Besides, T-72BA has ability to fire guided rounds, and if I am correct, automatic target tracking system.

Both have similar late 80s protection level, but T-72BA is superior in mobility and FCS than A4.

Only real difference between T-72B2 and T-72BA is Relikt ERA.
As of Bulat, I don't know how it is better. It has worse FCS with no thermal sights, no real advantages, only use of advanced ERA Nozh but protection is not significantly better either.

 

[hest]

This seems to be another proposal of T-72B upgrade... if this is T-72B not earlier variant.

This is T-72B2 example with Relikt, not T-72BA.

T-72BA is in fact same as Rogatka but preserving older Kontakt ERA and with no auxiliary power unit.

 

[militarysta]

There were several T-72BA upgrades. Official T-72BA which MoD orders now each year is what I described. I agree that it is only inexpensive and simple upgrade, but in characteristics it is better than Leopard 2A4 and that was the point.

How not ?? It has advanced FCS Sosna-U with modern thermal sights. Leopard 2A4 is on 80s level and has older first generation thermals.
Besides, T-72BA has ability to fire guided rounds, and if I am correct, automatic target tracking system.

Both have similar late 80s protection level, but T-72BA is superior in mobility and FCS than A4.

Ok, so I have some proposal: Let's say that Im thinkig that this what You had wrote about T-72BA is bullshit and in my opinnion Leopard-2A4 is still far far better tank in all, apart night maing gun sight, aspects, so my proposal is that - let's play and made COMPARISON Leopard-2A4 and T-72B and T-72BA -ok? In any apspects:
- mobility
- amunnition
- stabilizatin and FCS
- armour protection
- operation / ergonomic
Both of us can do that comparasion - of course whit feeding sources (or Bibliography).
What aspect You prefer to compare first?