Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

[Akim]

Designed for export, Russian will stick with 125mm smoothbores for a while.

In general on the Russian forums actively passing comes into question to the caliber of 152-mm in tanks.

 

[Akim]

Russian 120mm tank gun, Prototype ?

Only to whom her will sell? There is a cannon of KBM2 in Ukraine. For 10 years to nobody and item did not sell!

 

[Akim]

Actually that 120-мм the Ukrainian gun, to mount him in "soviet" tanks (T-72-120 and BM Yatagan). I did not hear, what Russians had worked out feed autoloader. In Т-90МS-это a niche is for additional rounds.

 

[Bhadra]

Days of tanks are over. No matter what you do.

 

[Akim]

Days of tanks are over. No matter what you do.

From where such statement. Does someone can in the world up rejected them?

 

[Damian]

It is just trolling... and popular misbelife among people with lack of knowledge about military, warfare etc.

This is because they still think that high levels of protection might be achieved only when vehicle reach unacceptable level of weight and size, which is not true.

How many times death of tank was predicted and never happend?

Besides this why to resign from tank? I would rather resign from attack helicopters instead of tanks.

Tank is incredibly universal, versitile, effective, highly survivable platform that in the same time is relatively cheap... why to resign from it? Because some fanboys of electronics and these useless flying machines says so?

NATO air forces during Balkan wars, being one of most powerfull in the world if not most powerfull, was capable to destroy only 14 enemy tanks... from approx 200 used there. This is not even funny, this is patethic.

In 1991 during Operation Desert Storm 80-90% of Iraqi ground forces were destroyed by coalition ground forces (mainly tanks and IFV's) not by air forces, in fact air forces just manipulated data and lied about it's own effectiveness against enemy ground forces.

Very same situation in 2003, everywhere they say that no tank battle had place in Iraq, where in fact there were tank battles, some really serious.

Or let's take anti insurgency wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Where tanks deliver precise and quick firepower where they are operating with minimal collateral damage, and also have psycological effects on enemy and local population + improve morale of own forces, artillery and air forces proves to be slow on delivering firepower, less precise, do high collateral damage, kill huge numbers of civilians, and are far more expensive than a single HE round for a tank gun.

And this single HE round for a tank gun is far more effective than smaller calliber weapons of APC's and IFV's.

Think about that.

 

[Bhadra]

From where such statement. Does someone can in the world up rejected them?

Tell me a place where tanks will be used in large numbers in a war? Will Second world war type of war will ever happen?

 

[militarysta]

@Militarysta

There is no IMI APFSDS here, Do you have any estimate of this new IMI round..

Well about IMI I have that dates:

APFSDS-T M332 (CL3143) - 30:1; 1705m/s, ~650mm RHA for 2000m
M338 - more powerful propelant chase, bigger Vmax, tungsten aloy rod was developed to overpass modern ERA and multi layer armour.
Source: Paweł Przeździecki, "Izraelski rydwan - czołg podstawowy Merkava Mk.IV Cz.2", Nowa Technika Wojskowa, 5/2011, s.27
(Source: Paweł Przeździecki, Israel's chariot - main battle tank Merkava Mk.IV Part.2", New Military Technology 5/2011, s.27)

Knowing kow-know between Israeli and Germany and other facts about modern ammo i suppose that M338 can achive 700mm RHA (or even overpass) -but its my opinnion only.

 

[militarysta]

Tell me a place where tanks will be used in large numbers in a war? Will Second world war type of war will ever happen?

1) Desert Storm
2) I Chechnya War
3) II Chechnya War
4) Iraq Freedom
5) Lebanon 2006
Enought?

 

[Damian]

Tell me a place where tanks will be used in large numbers in a war? Will Second world war type of war will ever happen?

When I was learning history on university, I get strong impression that it is immposible to say what will happen in future.

And if someone says that something would not happen some day in future, then he is naive... or is just idiot.

Besides this why You need a WWII scale? Tanks are usefull in most battle situations (and if they not, then no other armored vehicle is), how You want to attack someone effectively? How do You want to control territory You captured? How do You want to defend Yourself efectively without a battle machine called Tank?

Because only tank have enough firepower, mobility and survivability to accomplish all these tasks, rest of vehicles on battlefield are only supporting tanks, not the opposite.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Tell me a place where tanks will be used in large numbers in a war? Will Second world war type of war will ever happen?

Bhadra Ji,

You need tanks for offensive as well as defense maneuvers, there are countless reasons to it, Some of it you know yourself..

 

[militarysta]

Quite good article from OBRUM Gliwice about APS:

VEHICLE ACTIVE PROTECTION SYSTEM
Abstract: Vehicle Active Protection Systems (VAPS) commonly consist of an array of soft- and hardkill
techniques. Soft-kill methods, confuse an incoming missile, by using decoys, smoke and electro-optical
signals, infrared or laser jamming. Other concepts, which include hard-kill techniques, are designed to intercept
and destroy the incoming projectile or missile before it hits its target. The optimal implementation of APS
should be "design-dependent" thus, make it adaptable to a tracked or a wheeled vehicle as well as fixed
positions.

http://www.obrum.gliwice.pl/UserFiles/SPG_02_Dabrowski Komanski.pdf

 

[Damian]

Taiwan thinks about M1 Abrams MBT's (In Polish)

Article from asiaone (In English)

Seems that US might have another customer for 200 M1A1's.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The New OFB round MK-2 is based on IMI CL-2579, Though how much is different Polish Pronit from Original IMI CL-2579..

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@militarysta,
Used your research pic, Hope its fine..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Btw, How accurate is this..

Any change done on this ?

 

[Damian]

You can be sure Kunal, that Militarysta's estimations and claims are far more realistic than claims of PRC Military fanboys and propagandists.

 

[methos]

In another forum someone linked to a list of Russian tank ammunition; the list included a few designations which do not appear on other sites... are there any informations about the Russian post-Soviet tank ammunition development? Did they already field something better than Svinets/Lekalo?

 

[Damian]

Nobody really knows. Something new might have been designed but I doubt that it was fielded.

Can You provide that list?

 

[militarysta]

@militarysta,
Used your research pic, Hope its fine..

Yes, it's fine

Btw, How accurate is this..

Any change done on this ?

I made this more then year ago, and still I haven't any evidence that Chineese APFSDS round can achive more then 650mm RHA for 2000m. So there is no change.
Dates from PRC military forums and wiki are just BS - there is no mysterious chineese APFSDS whit bigger then I mentioned perforation. Of course Im sure that in PRC exist some experimental tank guns and ammos but "in service" 125mm is under this 650mm RHA for 2000m, I suppose that is even lower - 550-600mm RHA max.

 

[Scalieback]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

Besides that, all the stories about long range fire engagements with use of rifled guns are not accurate descriptions of what really happend. For example that tanks firing at such distance were commanded by high ranking officers, normal crews can't waste ammunition in such way. ALso nobody says how many rounds were fired before one of them hit target eliminaing it.

The old Challnger 1 is credited with the longest range tank kill and Brit tanks are not commanded by high ranking officers. Normally a Senior NCO or a young commissioned officer. The gunner was 18 at the time apparently.

Everything else I pretty much agree with and Britain will probably upgrade/change to 120mm smoothbore soon.