LOC, LAC & International Border skirmishs

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nimo_cn

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If the other 4 of G5 nations disqualify china from G5 and make it a ordinary member that will be a enormous relief to the world and also to the other G4 nations. This move will tame china a lot.
why would other P5 do that? for India? are you sure India matters that much to them? the attention western media are giving to the border standoff is so little that trump's comment on the french first lady's body made more headlines.
 

Yggdrasil

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how much is India needed compared to the way China is being needed?

between cutting off trade with China and cutting off trade with India, which one hurts EU and US more? which one do they prefer if they have to make a choice?
We're not talking about choosing between China and India, obviously - we're talking about response to Chinese territorial intransigence and expansionism.

For example, if you think the US and Japan and ASEAN have no red line when it comes to your destructive and nefarious activities in the SCS, you are sadly mistaken.

If ASEAN, US and Japan (and India) stand on one side, and China on the other, which side will most of the world take?
 

tarunraju

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China is using Indian opposition to do their diplomatic dirty-work. They're using the Indian opposition to talk to the Bhutanese royalty, to try and evict Indian Army from Dokhlam.

Rahul Gandhi wasn't the only "star visitor" at PRC Embassy in New Delhi in July. It was also visited by various TMC leaders from West Bengal, Congress leaders from Assam, and Congress' "royal" leaders (Scindia, Pilot, etc.,), who have personal relations/friendships with the Bhutanese royalty. One Congress leader is said to have made a personal visit to the Bhutanese Queen-mother with a message from China to impress upon the Bhutan government to officially ask the Indian Army to withdraw from Dokhlam.

China originally wanted the Gorkhaland unrest to create supply-line problems for the Indian Army. Modi dealt with it deftly. Now political unrest in WB and Assam is being fomented.
 

nimo_cn

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http://m.scmp.com/week-asia/geopolitics/article/2102555/indias-china-war-round-two

THIS IS INDIA’S CHINA WAR, ROUND TWO

BY NEVILLE MAXWELL
15 JUL 2017
The absurd myth of an ‘unprovoked Chinese aggression’ in 1962 has fermented in India a persistent longing for revenge

91

Indian Army soldiers of the Gorkha Regiment patrol the India-China border. Photo: AFP
With India and China interacting over more than 3,000km of undefined frontier, friction is constant and that one day it would break back into border war has seemed inevitable. Two great Indian delusions have created this situation.


China, India border dispute bubbles over once more, but no one is quite sure why

The lesser of these was the outright falsehood spun in the shock of immediate and utter Indian defeat in 1962’s Round One border war with China, when, after the hesitant launch of an Indian offensive to drive the Chinese out of India-claimed territory on the Chinese side of the McMahon Line, the pre-emptive Chinese counter-attack had in little more than a month crushed the Indian Army. It enabled the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) to vacate all the territory it had occupied with nothing more than the minatory – and humiliating – warning to India, “don’t challenge us again”.

The absurd myth of an “unprovoked Chinese aggression” which had taken India by surprise was promulgated to resurrect the broken image of “Pandit” Jawaharlal Nehru, the prime minister personally and pre-eminently responsible for the national disaster. Although long ago exposed and belied internationally, in India the myth has fermented in high military as well as political circles a longing for revenge.

Neville Maxwell discloses document revealing that India provoked China into 1962 border war

The underlying and greater delusion is that India’s geographical limits are set by millennial historical forces. The process of boundary formation established and required by the international community (negotiation to achieve agreement on border alignment and cooperation to demarcate the agreed alignment on the ground) thus becomes otiose for the Indian republic. India, having “discovered” the alignment of its borders through historical research, need only display them on its official maps and those would become defined international boundaries “not open to discussion with anybody”, as Nehru put it in a notorious order in 1954.

Neville Maxwell interview: the full transcript

He applied his own ruling literally and categorically, rejecting Beijing’s repeated calls for negotiation; and every one of his scores of successors in the Indian leadership has clung, or felt nailed to, that obdurate and provocative stance, in effect claiming the sole right unilaterally to define China’s as well as India’s borders. Every generation of literate Indians is inculcated with that false sense of national oppression by the cartographic image showing broad areas of Indian territory “occupied” by China, with reminders that Beijing’s maps reveal an intention to seize even more.


The Dalai Lama has been the subject of many spats between China and India. Photo: Reuters

MORE ON THIS STORY

SINO-INDIA RELATIONS
What’s behind the latest China-India border dispute?
The Sino-Indian interface along the undefined and contested frontier is consequently and constantly a source of international friction, waiting only for incidental sparks to set off martial conflagration.


THIS WEEK IN ASIA
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Border war was narrowly averted in 1987 when a belligerent Indian Army commander, General Krishnaswamy Sundarj, having been foiled in his plan to render Pakistan a “broken-back state”, turned his attention to the China border. He massively reinforced positions there and in deliberate provocation pushed numerous posts across the established McMahon line of actual control. China reacted with matching troop concentrations and air force inductions, and warned India to desist from its aggressions, which, in the late summer of 1987, it did, probably under US pressure.


Former Indian prime minister Narasimha Rao negotiated the only border agreement between India and China. Photo: AP

The heat went out of the confrontation but the Indian Army was left in a grossly unbalanced situation, with great troop concentrations beyond normal supply reach. That predicament induced a new Indian government, under Prime Minister Narasimha Rao, to negotiate in 1993 India’s one and only border agreement with the PRC: jointly to observe the line of actual control (LAC) and to reduce force levels to a practical minimum. Later, developments fell far short of what the treaty required.

The current confrontation in the Sikkim sector might appear to have similar origins in military rather than political assertions, with India’s army chief, General Bipin Rawat, beating his chest with boasts that India can fight and win on “two and a half” fronts simultaneously.

Border dispute an obstacle to building trust between China and India

But the context points to deeper factors. India has recently been goading China in what can only have been a purposeful series of actions. Rather than let the LAC mature with the passing years, India has been needling Beijing by taking such doll figures as the Dalai Lama and loud-mouthed American diplomats into the disputed border region India proclaims to be its state of Arunachal Pradesh, and megaphoning the false claim that the McMahon alignment represents a legal boundary rather than a historical but contested claim. The McMahon Line in fact rests on a British diplomatic forgery, long exposed. This may be another indication that Prime Minister Narendra Modi has decided that India’s interest will be served better in an aggressive American alliance rather than in a neighbourly relationship with China.


Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi has maintained a strategy of aligning his nation with the US and Japan. Photo: Reuters

The sudden convergence of Indian and Chinese troop concentrations around the current military confrontation in Doklam illustrates again the truth of Curzon’s observation in his Oxford lecture that borders can be “the razor’s edge on which hang suspended the modern issue of war or peace”. There is a spicy historical irony here because this confrontation is precisely sited in the single, tiny Sino-Indian border sector that was long ago treaty-defined and demarcated.

What’s at stake for China as unsure Modi meets unpredictable Trump?

In 1890, rational self-interest brought the mighty British Raj to sit down in conference, as if on equal terms, with the ruler of the Lilliputian Himalayan state of Sikkim, agree on the alignment of the state’s border and jointly mark that out on the ground. Time, weather and probably local human mischief will have obliterated the border markers but the careful verbal description in the Treaty prevails to prove that the local Indian commander, with or without higher orders, has blatantly moved forces into what is now Chinese territory. Beijing, sorely chafed already by India’s recent repeated provocations, appears to have decided that this is too much, and has itself adopted the absolutist Nehruvian position of “no discussion without withdrawal”.


Jawaharlal Nehru, India’s first prime minister. Photo: AFP

The Indian attempt to depict this confrontation as tripartite should be disregarded. Bhutan is not an independent actor, is rather an Indian glove-puppet. A brigade group of the Indian Army, permanently stationed in Bhutan and now reinforced, is an ever-present reminder to Bhutan’s ruling group of what happened to Sikkim when its ruler aspired to independence – speedy annexation.

Thus this still petty armed confrontation has a real and potentially enormous explosive potential – Round Two of Sino-Indian war. The way out, and ahead, lies where it always has been, in the opening of comprehensive, unconditional Sino-Indian boundary negotiation. What bars the way is the requirement of Indian policy reversal, which in the current bellicose mood and twisted popular sense of injury in India would require heroic bravery of leadership.

India’s China policy off target, says Modi’s Mandarin-speaking ‘guided missile’

There is an example of just such an action, which seeded what now appears to be the key geopolitical factor of the age, the Sino-Russian alliance: Gorbachev’s reversal of the Soviets’ no-negotiation stance in the border dispute with China, blooded in the Zhenbao Island battles of 1969. From the long-extended negotiations to compromise severely clashing territorial claims emerged a mutual confidence and trust that, annealed by common exposure to American hostility, set into an alliance just short of formal declaration. Should a leader ever emerge in India with the courage and vision Gorbachev showed, such too could be a Sino-Indian future.

Neville Maxwell, who covered the 1962 China-India border war as the South Asia correspondent for The Times, is the author of India’s China War. In March 2014, Maxwell leaked the Henderson Brooks-Bhagat Report, an Indian government report from 1963 examining India’s defeat in the Sino-Indian War that is yet to be declassified.
 

nimo_cn

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We're not talking about choosing between China and India, obviously - we're talking about response to Chinese territorial intransigence and expansionism.

For example, if you think the US and Japan and ASEAN have no red line when it comes to your destructive and nefarious activities in the SCS, you are sadly mistaken.

If ASEAN, US and Japan (and India) stand on one side, and China on the other, which side will most of the world take?
you still don't get it, no other country will sacrifice its economical gains from China for India.
 

tarunraju

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you still don't get it, no other country will sacrifice its economical gains from China for India.
Bhutan will, and that's what matters. It doesn't even have formal diplomatic relations with China, and has a mutual-defense treaty with India, which goes both ways.

Bhutan has an obligation to defend Indian strategic interests as much as we have with theirs. So it won't be easy for the Bhutanese government to simply tell Indian Army to leave Dokhlam. We won't.
 

Brood Father

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you still don't get it, no other country will sacrifice its economical gains from China for India.
We don't need nobody to support us... We are enough for Chinese.... Please attack us and see what we will do to you.. Don't make empty threats

Anyways.. Don't just remember 62.... Remember also 67 and 87 also
 
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nimo_cn

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We don't need nobody to support us... We are enough for Chinese.... Please attack us and see what we will do to you.. Don't make empty threats

Anyways.. Don't just remember 62.... Remember also 67 and 87 also
The absurd myth of an ‘unprovoked Chinese aggression’ in 1962 has fermented in India a persistent longing for revenge.

the author is so damn right about indians.
 

Brood Father

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The absurd myth of an ‘unprovoked Chinese aggression’ in 1962 has fermented in India a persistent longing for revenge.

the author is so damn right about indians.
Forget about author.. Chinese are known for its unprovoked expansionism.... What are you doing in south china sea... And even Japanese are having problem with you..
Only country which support china are rogue nation like Pakistan and north Korea..
Don't teach us about aggression.. First look and yourself and your policy towards other nations
 

nimo_cn

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Bhutan will, and that's what matters. It doesn't even have formal diplomatic relations with China, and has a mutual-defense treaty with India, which goes both ways.

Bhutan has an obligation to defend Indian strategic interests as much as we have with theirs. So it won't be easy for the Bhutanese government to simply tell Indian Army to leave Dokhlam. We won't.
well, you are right about Bhutan, for now. no dispute on that.

but I am telling you people to get rid of the hallucination that you have the whole world on your side.
 

nimo_cn

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Forget about author.. Chinese are known for its unprovoked expansionism.... What are you doing in south china sea... And even Japanese are having problem with you..
Only country which support china are rogue nation like Pakistan and north Korea..
Don't teach us about aggression.. First look and yourself and your policy towards other nations
certainly we should not forget about the author, the author clearly stated that China was provoked and forced to retaliate in 1962. your government has been feeding you lies about 1962 since the defeat, it's simply outrageous.
 
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IndianHawk

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well, you are right about Bhutan, for now. no dispute on that.

but I am telling you people to get rid of the hallucination that you have the whole world on your side.
It is the chinese that are hallucinating that they have become some super power.

How many countries have Chinese issued warnings recently India , Japan , Vietnam , USA , mangolia even.

So much barking without any action Chinese are nothing but soft yellow fools:hehe:
 

Yggdrasil

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well, you are right about Bhutan, for now. no dispute on that.

but I am telling you people to get rid of the hallucination that you have the whole world on your side.
Nobody sane in India believes that the whole world is on their side - we're well aware of Western (especially American) duplicity.

You need to get rid of your communist brainwashing that China is invincible and can land grab with impunity.

India and China could've worked together to balance the West well if not for the CPC's paranoia, hegemonic imperialist expansionist ambitions. You have territorial disputes with every single one of your neighbours, but amazingly you believe your own propaganda that it's the other country's fault!
 

TheHurtLocker

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Looks like our friend from South Korea just went back to Maoland.
And remember that the Tibetans were self immolating pre 1959 and this is what prompted Chairman Mao's stooges to liberate the the land and help them with their lives.
#HanMeinSachchHein
:pound:
 

IndianHawk

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certainly we should not forget about the author, the author clearly stated that China was provoked and forced to retaliate in 1962. your government has been feeding you lies about 1962 since the defeat, it's simply outrageous.
The author is a biased fool. Perhaps Chinese should remember what Western scholars write about CCP , human rights and freedom in china. No. But guess what CCP doesn't allow slaves to read anything outside it's propaganda printed crap.

Perhaps that is why chinese lurk here on Indian forums , can't breathe on censored Chinese Sino defence crap forum with it's medival might keyboard warriors.:hehe:
 

tarunraju

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but I am telling you people to get rid of the hallucination that you have the whole world on your side.
We don't. CNN, BBC, and the other western loud-mouths don't exactly sing praises about India; and we've stayed away from western organizations such as NATO, instead getting into sovereign groupings like BRICS. So don't for a moment think that India has such hallucinations. We do have an independent foreign policy, which frustrates western powers as much as it irks China.
 
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