LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[Spitfire9]

We should look for partners for LCA not customers, nobody is going to invest billions in a jet which is just 4th gen and developed by India. There are 5-6 alternatives available.
GoI should be prepared to invest few millions in loss making deal and find some African country which can offer some mines for LCA. That's the only way we can sell LCA outside India, there has to be some strategic importance of LCA.

Disrespect unintended but I do not see any country wanting to team up with a chaotic, unfit for purpose, state controlled, bureaucracy-riddled military aviation sector such as is found in India. As a measure of how deeply inadequate the government-controlled sector is, the private sector in India looks like it does not want to touch participation in AMCA production with a barge pole.

I agree with you that India would do well to invest a few millions in a loss making deal or two selling a few Mk1A's to export customers. It would give MK1A the chance to prove its worth in the international market. Most importantly a couple of export deals could show if India was able to provide adequate post-sales support. I suspect they would show that the Indian military aviation sector in its current incarnation is not capable of doing that. A useful lesson would be learnt - either reform or give up all thoughts of becoming a serious force in the world fast jet market and instead just stick to supplying India's armed forces.

 

[Spitfire9]

Not at all. It established the fact that dependency on a country like the UK for parts should be avoided as far as possible for Tejas Mk2, TEDBF and AMCA. Next program there'll be no Cobham parts and only the Martin Baker seat will be of British origin.

It also established the fact that HAL along with the GOI are dead serious about export campaigns and are willing to go the extra length to meet customer requirements (e.g. giving Argentina a roadmap to remove British sourced parts) to try to secure a deal.

If anyone is wasting money it is your dear Airbus which is offering Typhoon for the MRFA despite the writing being on the wall (if there is ever a MRFA tender released).

Agreed about Typhoon - a waste of time and money offering it to India. It has proved to be extremely expensive to operate and IMO has no chance of winning, given India's billion dollar investment in 'indianisation' of Rafale and costs of setting up to operate a particular type. Good for India to have it in the programme, though - it prevents Dassault being too greedy with their pricing.

Regarding Argentina and swapping the ejection set and refuelling probe, how much would that cost including retesting? How much would that increase the cost per frame to Argentina? How many years would it add before delivery could take place? I doubt that Argentina would want to wait until 2030+ to get hold of fast jets. Additionally, Argentina probably would be the only country operating that version. Not a good idea financially having a sub-type with only a small number of frames in use worldwide (your frames).

I think that the proposition made to Argentina was a waste of time and money.

 

[MirageBlue]

Agreed about Typhoon - a waste of time and money offering it to India. It has proved to be extremely expensive to operate and IMO has no chance of winning, given India's billion dollar investment in 'indianisation' of Rafale. Good for India to have it in the programme, though - it prevents Dassault being too greedy with their pricing.

Regarding Argentina and swapping the ejection set and refuelling probe, how much would that cost including retesting? How much would that increase the cost per frame to Argentina? How many years would it add before delivery could take place? I doubt that Argentina would want to wait until 2030+ to get hold of fast jets. Additionally, Argentina probably would be the only country operating that version. Not a good idea financially having a sub-type with only a small number of frames in use worldwide (your frames).

I think that the proposition made to Argentina was a waste of time and money.

Ok, so we agree on the Typhoon.

It would've taken some time for India to develop the non British part replacements and test and certify them for Argentina. But it was possible and in fact most are being replaced on the Tejas Mk2 as we speak. For e.g. the radome and the refueling probe.

The parts that would've been replaced for Argentina, if they were sourced from Indian companies, you'd have seen them on Indian Air Force Tejas Mk1As as well. So it wouldn't have been like a small batch of customized Argentina Tejas Mk1As that couldn't be supported.

But for a while it wasn't certain Argentina could get any F-16s and at that time the Tejas Mk1A had a real chance. I wouldn't fault HAL for being optimistic, since it was believed that the US might ask for transferring these 24 F-16s to Ukraine.

Any neutral person will prefer the Tejas Mk1A over JF-17 Blk 3 given the big technological differences between the two and most importantly, the American engine versus the Russian RD-93 or an even more unproven Chinese WS-13 for a single engine jet.

Maybe, we'll be able to offer them Tejas Mk2 then.

BTW, good to see you here. I remember you from the Keypubs forum which sadly went under. I recall you were always interested in Indian aviation topics albeit very skeptical of our capabilities.

 

[NutCracker]

Agreed about Typhoon - a waste of time and money offering it to India. It has proved to be extremely expensive to operate and IMO has no chance of winning, given India's billion dollar investment in 'indianisation' of Rafale and costs of setting up to operate a particular type. Good for India to have it in the programme, though - it prevents Dassault being too greedy with their pricing.

Regarding Argentina and swapping the ejection set and refuelling probe, how much would that cost including retesting? How much would that increase the cost per frame to Argentina? How many years would it add before delivery could take place? I doubt that Argentina would want to wait until 2030+ to get hold of fast jets. Additionally, Argentina probably would be the only country operating that version. Not a good idea financially having a sub-type with only a small number of frames in use worldwide (your frames).

I think that the proposition made to Argentina was a waste of time and money.

US/Russian ejection seat mightve took some time, but lack of refueling probe is not a deal breaker
They could've surely waited till 2030 for retrofitting Indian refueler. They ain't planning to bomb Falkland in near future.

Heck, Argentina doesn't even have refuelers to begin with, they barely scraped some money to buy old jets.

 

[SilentlAssassin265]

So Argentina is no longer a possible Tejas Mk1A customer.

It never was

 

[Spitfire9]

US/Russian ejection seat mightve took some time, but lack of refueling probe is not a deal breaker
They could've surely waited till 2030 for retrofitting Indian refueler. They ain't planning to bomb Falkland in near future.

Heck, Argentina doesn't even have refuelers to begin with, they barely scraped some money to buy old jets.

Agree about refuelling probe if they don't have air tankers and have no plans for them in the pipeline.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

Why did the idiots at HAL even offer Tejas? We are dying to replace the Flying Coffins. We are buying second hand Mirages to cannibalize for their parts.

So dying to replace the Flying coffins that up until Feb 2021, HAL's order book looked like this:
1) Tejas IOC: 16
2) Tejas FOC: 16
3) Tejas Trainer: 8

 

[Blademaster]

Why did the idiots at HAL even offer Tejas? We are dying to replace the Flying Coffins. We are buying second hand Mirages to cannibalize for their parts.

Because it means that if a foreign buyer buys Tejas, the IAF has no argument against Tejas and must support it at all costs and helps HAL spread the cost over and getting that first buyer means more other buyers will come. The very same way that Rafale found success after India became the first foreign buyer.

 

[Chinmoy]

प्रिय मित्र, एक एजेंसी A बना रही है, दूसरी एजेंसी B को लेना है. दोनों सरकारी हैं. अब एजेंसी B अगर चार कम्पनियों से टेंडर माँग कर निर्णय करती तो बात अलग थी, लेकिन जब A को बनाकर B को सप्लाई करना है तो फिर इतनी लम्बी प्रक्रिया क्यों. जितनी मांग B की है वह A को बता देनी है, A का जितना खर्चा आयेगा वह सरकार द्वारा उनको दिया जायेगा और B को सामान . इसमें अगर हिन्दी फिल्मों का खुमार लग रहा है तो आप इसे ऐसे भी मान सकते हैं. इसमें अगर कुछ अलग है तो केवल एकाउंटिंग के उद्देश्य से बजट एलोकेशन की बात, कि एयरफ़ोर्स को इतना बजट आयुधों और मशीनों के लिए दिया गया जिसमें से इतना इस मद में खर्च किया गया. No hard feelings sir..

There is a reason why I said that you are living in a hangover of 70s 80s movies. There it has been categorically shown that a business man is always the evil person and government should take care of business in country.

Govt is having a 75.15% stakes in HAL and rest 24.75% is owned by market. So forget that HAL is a Govt entity and govt is buying from one entity and delivering to other. Govt here is in-fact customer and seeking a product from HAL.

The confusion here is the term "Tender", which is infact "RFP". Govt has issued a Request for Proposal to HAL for 97 Tejas. Government has put a ceiling of 65000 Crore of the deal which would include service as well as spare availability on FTB.
Now HAL is running an assembly line. Which means instead of manufacturing the whole jet from ground up, they are infact sourcing materials or resources off the shelf and is assembling the jet. We all know that Tejas's wings, Tail section, Mid section, fore section are made by different companies and do get delivered to HAL.
Now based on this RFP, HAL will issue limited or open tenders to registered vendors for part delivery. Fun fact is, HAL has its own engine division, but for any engine from here, a separate order has to be place to them by HAL.
So for all these purpose and reasons, GOI can't directly place an order to HAL based on their internal discussion behind close doors.

 

[Spitfire9]

Govt is having a 75.15% stakes in HAL and rest 24.75% is owned by market. So forget that HAL is a Govt entity

??? In my book a single shareholder with more than 50% of the shares in a company - in this case GOI - controls the company.

Because it means that if a foreign buyer buys Tejas, the IAF has no argument against Tejas and must support it at all costs and helps HAL spread the cost over and getting that first buyer means more other buyers will come. The very same way that Rafale found success after India became the first foreign buyer.

Other countries in the market for a light fighter will observe with great interest how Mk1A's first export customer gets on with the aircraft. If support proves to be good, Mk1A could be 'accepted' as a possible buy by some countries. If support is not seen as good, it will be rejected as a possible buy by some countries.

Personally I do not think that taking on an order for 40 from Philippines as a first export order is wise. With no experience in supporting Mk1A export customers, HAL may run into problems and fail to fix them in a timely manner.

 

[Spitfire9]

About the Philippines again, according to what I have read, the Philippines needs to fill 2 requirements: a maritime strike requirement (Mk1A+Brahmos fits the bill) and an air force requirement where Mk1A does not fit the bill. Why would the PAF accept an aircraft that does not meet requirements? I think that F-16 (albeit with a maritime strike missile inferior to Brahmos) would be selected over Mk1A since only one type would be required.

 

[Chinmoy]

??? In my book a single shareholder with more than 50% of the shares in a company - in this case GOI - controls the company.

Lets say we both have stake in a company. You hold 51% share and me 49% share. So by your logic, you are the owner of the company.
Now just imagine what would happen if I withdraw the 49% stake in form of investment and workshare. What will happen then?

 

[Azaad]

About the Philippines again, according to what I have read, the Philippines needs to fill 2 requirements: a maritime strike requirement (Mk1A+Brahmos fits the bill) and an air force requirement where Mk1A does not fit the bill. Why would the PAF accept an aircraft that does not meet requirements? I think that F-16 (albeit with a maritime strike missile inferior to Brahmos) would be selected over Mk1A since only one type would be required.

The discussion is purely academic. Philippines is a treaty ally of the US. I don't see any hope in hell for a non US fighter aircraft to be selected by the PhAF. Quite frankly there was no hope in hell the Tejas would be selected by the Argentines too.

In fact I'm surprised the Chinese Paxtani collaboration JF-17 wasn't chosen given the clout the Chinese enjoy with the Argentines , something the Indians lack & something which is vital to swing such deals. Probably the Chinese didn't canvas hard enough.

But all said & done it's essential HAL undertakes these activities for they're novices as far as international marketing goes . Not that they ever had a product that could be marketed internationally. Now they do.

All these efforts in various geographies of the world will stand them in good stead once they have a basket of products of international quality to offer besides understanding the market , it's dynamics which is peculiar to every market & building up a rapport with the people who count .

We can & should see HAL's efforts in this light & encourage them wishing them all the luck they deserve.

 

[mamamia12]

The discussion is purely academic. Philippines is a treaty ally of the US. I don't see any hope in hell for a non US fighter aircraft to be selected by the PhAF. Quite frankly there was no hope in hell the Tejas would be selected by the Argentines too.

In fact I'm surprised the Chinese Paxtani collaboration JF-17 wasn't chosen given the clout the Chinese enjoy with the Argentines , something the Indians lack & something which is vital to swing such deals. Probably the Chinese didn't canvas hard enough.

But all said & done it's essential HAL undertakes these activities for they're novices as far as international marketing goes . Not that they ever had a product that could be marketed internationally. Now they do.

All these efforts in various geographies of the world will stand them in good stead once they have a basket of products of international quality to offer besides understanding the market , it's dynamics which is peculiar to every market & building up a rapport with the people who count .

We can & should see HAL's efforts in this light & encourage them wishing them all the luck they deserve.

For your Argentinian part, USA will be raining freedom if any Latin America dares to procure major weapons system from enemies of USA. The JF-17 never had a chance. Even the farce for Tejas it to negotiate favorable conditions for F-16 procurement. Tejas will only achieve breakthrough in sales if they put up domestic kaveri engine.

 

[Spitfire9]

Lets say we both have stake in a company. You hold 51% share and me 49% share. So by your logic, you are the owner of the company.
Now just imagine what would happen if I withdraw the 49% stake in form of investment and workshare. What will happen then?

I said the GOI controlled the company. With the GOI being the majority shareholder, it ultimately decides what is done in the company - as if it owned all the shares.. Any shareholder can sell the shares it owns if the shareholder wishes to recoup some/all/more than the money it spent buying its shares (depends on price when shares were purchased and price when shares were sold).

 

[kamaal]

Only African country with soft loan of $ 1 billion would risk buying the LCA. Forget PhAF they have good partners in west, only thing is cost, but the west may offer some concession.
Only chance for LCA when GoI offers $ 1 billion soft loan along with Brahmos NG, Akash Mk2, 75% availability, assembly and maintenance facility, etc even if HAL looses, I'll not be surprised. But they should give everything for this deal.

 

[Zoid Raptor]

Only African country with soft loan of $ 1 billion would risk buying the LCA. Forget PhAF they have good partners in west, only thing is cost, but the west may offer some concession.
Only chance for LCA when GoI offers $ 1 billion soft loan along with Brahmos NG, Akash Mk2, 75% availability, assembly and maintenance facility, etc even if HAL looses, I'll not be surprised. But they should give everything for this deal.

Armenia might take that deal

 

[Spitfire9]

IIRC HAL plans to produce 8 x Mk1A FY2024-2025, then 16 x Mk1A FY2025-2026. It will be reassuring if they actually do that. Only 11 and a bit months to go to find out about the 8 and 23 and a bit months to go to find out about the 16!

How are the Tejas trainers going? Are they on schedule?

 

[Master Chief]

Lets say we both have stake in a company. You hold 51% share and me 49% share. So by your logic, you are the owner of the company.
Now just imagine what would happen if I withdraw the 49% stake in form of investment and workshare. What will happen then?

That single majority shareholder is the Government, which can print money and set rules.. So, although minority shareholders especially ones with significant stake are influential.. governments do enjoy outsized role if they are majority stake holders..

 

[karn]

I said the GOI controlled the company. With the GOI being the majority shareholder, it ultimately decides what is done in the company - as if it owned all the shares.. Any shareholder can sell the shares it owns if the shareholder wishes to recoup some/all/more than the money it spent buying its shares (depends on price when shares were purchased and price when shares were sold).

Being a majority shareholder only means that you get the majority of the seats on the board . Which only means that the govt can through its board seats force HAL to do whatever it wants . However this does not mean that the MOD can force HAL to take losses as then MOF can refuse to bail out HAL
GOI needs a RFP regardless since it is public money and procedures for spending said money has rules.
Even companies within say TATA group have to use the tender process for any dealing within the group it's not like they decide to take on projects based on a verbal agreement and a handshake .