LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[Spitfire9]

@karn - I wasn't questioning the convoluted ramifications of GOI being customer and shareholder in HAL Ltd.

 

[kamaal]

Armenia might take that deal

Hmmmn, they export wine and some medical instruments, I wonder how'll they pay for previous deals. Would like to see the arrangements.
We'll have to look equipping their su30s with SAAW and Astra. LCA is too much costly deal for them, but looking at azeris getting jf17, I think HAL can try a deal. Because jf17 will provide great advantage to the already powerful azeri airforce. LCA MK1A will be a good deal, but money is a issue.
We'll have to sign some mining deal, I have heard that they have good amount of lead and other critical minerals. I hope both the govt think about it.

 

[Chinmoy]

I said the GOI controlled the company. With the GOI being the majority shareholder, it ultimately decides what is done in the company - as if it owned all the shares.. Any shareholder can sell the shares it owns if the shareholder wishes to recoup some/all/more than the money it spent buying its shares (depends on price when shares were purchased and price when shares were sold).

Not really.

GoI formulate policies. Now a PSU is not bound to act as per government policy. It can have its own independent policy.
A PSU consists of internal and independent directors. Although all its internal directors are appointed through PESB, it does have a set of independent directors too. So GoI can't dictate terms to PSU although they do try to formulate their policies based on government policy. But last say is of CMD (Chairman cum Managing Director, not Chief Managing Director).
So, from 2018 onwards, GOI is not controlling HAL.

 

[Chinmoy]

That single majority shareholder is the Government, which can print money and set rules.. So, although minority shareholders especially ones with significant stake are influential.. governments do enjoy outsized role if they are majority stake holders..

Already replied it.
It was true till 2018. Not now.

 

[daya]

The Centre has extended the tenure of CB Ananthakrishnan, Director (Finance) holding additional charge as Chairman & Managing Director (CMD), Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd of the company for a period of six months with effect from August 1, 2023.
I think this will clarify the position of Government.
https://government.economictimes.in...extension-for-hal-director-f-as-cmd/103621834

 

[Roland55]

Ok, so we agree on the Typhoon.

It would've taken some time for India to develop the non British part replacements and test and certify them for Argentina. But it was possible and in fact most are being replaced on the Tejas Mk2 as we speak. For e.g. the radome and the refueling probe.

The parts that would've been replaced for Argentina, if they were sourced from Indian companies, you'd have seen them on Indian Air Force Tejas Mk1As as well. So it wouldn't have been like a small batch of customized Argentina Tejas Mk1As that couldn't be supported.

But for a while it wasn't certain Argentina could get any F-16s and at that time the Tejas Mk1A had a real chance. I wouldn't fault HAL for being optimistic, since it was believed that the US might ask for transferring these 24 F-16s to Ukraine.

Any neutral person will prefer the Tejas Mk1A over JF-17 Blk 3 given the big technological differences between the two and most importantly, the American engine versus the Russian RD-93 or an even more unproven Chinese WS-13 for a single engine jet.

Maybe, we'll be able to offer them Tejas Mk2 then.

BTW, good to see you here. I remember you from the Keypubs forum which sadly went under. I recall you were always interested in Indian aviation topics albeit very skeptical of our capabilities.

I will quote you, but its more meant for all who had talked about the Argentine Deal and its overall...result..

From this side of the world we all knew that the F-16 was the chosen one, despite that, i see it as a great learning experience for HAL, for what i heard (and i said it already) their conduct here was very professional and their proposals were quite ambitious and very tempting. I really hope HAL gets a deal in the future, but this shouldn't be seen as something bad but instead as more experience in the grounds of export, im sure eventually we'll see the Tejas in other colors..other roundels..

But who knows...maybe we eventually buy something indian thats not tejas...

 

[Spitfire9]

@Roland55
Being in South America, do you have a view on Mk1A sales prospects on your continent? I think of Colombia and Peru which I understand need to replace their old fighters.

PS I am aware that Colombia was reported to have selected Rafale but it seems could not raise the funds to do a deal last year.

 

[MirageBlue]

About the Philippines again, according to what I have read, the Philippines needs to fill 2 requirements: a maritime strike requirement (Mk1A+Brahmos fits the bill) and an air force requirement where Mk1A does not fit the bill. Why would the PAF accept an aircraft that does not meet requirements? I think that F-16 (albeit with a maritime strike missile inferior to Brahmos) would be selected over Mk1A since only one type would be required.

What is the specific Air Force requirement that the Mk1A cannot fulfil?

 

[MirageBlue]

For your Argentinian part, USA will be raining freedom if any Latin America dares to procure major weapons system from enemies of USA. The JF-17 never had a chance. Even the farce for Tejas it to negotiate favorable conditions for F-16 procurement. Tejas will only achieve breakthrough in sales if they put up domestic kaveri engine.

If that's the case why is the KAI T-50 and FA-50 selling so well? They're using F-404 engines on them as well.

The US simply had a veto on the F-16 sale and needed to give permission for it - the actual sale came from Denmark which wanted to offload these F-16s for F-35s. There was a very real chance that the US could've pressurized Denmark to transfer these 24 (in addition to the other 19 F-16s) to Ukraine, given how eagerly they want Ukraine to be able to defend themselves with jets.

Kaveri is never going to happen with the Tejas. If there is a future, it is with UCAVs and possibly a future AJT.

 

[MirageBlue]

Armenia might take that deal

The thing about Armenia is that they don't have a fighter culture in their air force. It is very small, training is definitely an issue and for any fighter to be effective, they'll need a lot of training, exercises, and time.

If the GoI decides that it definitely wants to help Armenia build a proper air force, they'll need a lot of time and investment for that. Maybe train their pilots at our institutions, embed them in our squadrons for a few months, expose them to our TACDE, etc.

 

[Spitfire9]

The thing about Armenia is that they don't have a fighter culture in their air force. It is very small, training is definitely an issue and for any fighter to be effective, they'll need a lot of training, exercises, and time.

If the GoI decides that it definitely wants to help Armenia build a proper air force, they'll need a lot of time and investment for that. Maybe train their pilots at our institutions, embed them in our squadrons for a few months, expose them to our TACDE, etc.

I had a look on wiki to see what fighters Armenia have: 4 x Su-30. What would a package including 8 x Mk1A cost to get them started on building a credible fighter force? If Mk1A could do the work of Su-25, also in their inventory, it could reduce costs, too, in the long run.

A small order would not slow deliveries too much to IAF (the priority). It would also help HAL to learn how to provide adequate support to export customers.

 

[MirageBlue]

I had a look on wiki to see what fighters Armenia have: 4 x Su-30. What would a package including 8 x Mk1A cost to get them started on building a credible fighter force? If Mk1A could do the work of Su-25, also in their inventory, it could reduce costs, too, in the long run.

A small order would not slow deliveries too much to IAF (the priority). It would also help HAL to learn how to provide adequate support to export customers.

The Tejas Mk1A is generations ahead of the Su-25 in every way except for taking hits and surviving.

Armenia has 4 X Su-30s as you pointed out, but they're trained by the Russians, with very limited exposure to any other air force. Even if they purchase Astra Mk1 missiles which are superior the R-77s, they need to be trained well to use BVR tactics.

Giving them Tejas Mk1As to get them started on getting a proper fast jet capability with all the missions it entails is not the only thing. They will need a lot of assistance to be credible.

 

[DumbPilot]

The Tejas Mk1A is generations ahead of the Su-25 in every way except for taking hits and surviving.

Armenia has 4 X Su-30s as you pointed out, but they're trained by the Russians, with very limited exposure to any other air force. Even if they purchase Astra Mk1 missiles which are superior the R-77s, they need to be trained well to use BVR tactics.

Giving them Tejas Mk1As to get them started on getting a proper fast jet capability with all the missions it entails is not the only thing. They will need a lot of assistance to be credible.

I don't know how professional they are with respect to keep sensitive equipment safe; and in such a case, giving them bleeding edge Indian equipment like the Tejas Mk1A might be a security risk. I believe there was already news about the Akash or Swathi WLR involved in allegations where sensitive information was leaked to Azerbaijanian agents

 

[Bleh]

Working on fanart after a long time. Developed more on the Mark1A's angled dual-CCM concept on LIFT renders by @Kuntal. Demonstrates well how the arrangement will allow Tejas to dual-rack BVRs...

...which is necessary as Jf-17 & J-10C have finally got them operationalised.

Thus our 220 LCAs need dual-rack capability, not just 120(?) MWFs. Other than symmetrical alignment & 3 CCM option, this slightly changed setup will open up alternative avenues with 2 CCMs.

 

[NutCracker]

Working on fanart after a long time. Developed more on the Mark1A's angled dual-CCM concept on LIFT renders by @Kuntal. Demonstrates well how the arrangement will allow Tejas to dual-rack BVRs...
View attachment 249161View attachment 249159
...which is necessary as Jf-17 & J-10C have finally got them operationalised.View attachment 249160
View attachment 249162

Thus our 220 LCAs need dual-rack capability, not just 120(?) MWFs. Other than symmetrical alignment & 3 CCM option, this slightly changed setup will open up alternative avenues with 2 CCMs.
View attachment 249173

We can wish that these renders attract attention of upper echelons in HAL/ADA.
Some homie should push it through WhatsApp group of those Unkils.

Just make proper use of that low wingloading airframe. porkies have been seen flying with dual pylon only once or twice. That configuration might degrade airframe way fast.

 

[Bleh]

We can wish that these renders attract attention of upper echelons in HAL/ADA.

They did... boi got hired by HAL didn't he? His work is famous in social media.

porkies have been seen flying with dual pylon only once or twice. That configuration might degrade airframe way fast.

That's unlikely IMO. It's lower weight & drag than LGBs.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

The thing about Armenia is that they don't have a fighter culture in their air force. It is very small, training is definitely an issue and for any fighter to be effective, they'll need a lot of training, exercises, and time.

If the GoI decides that it definitely wants to help Armenia build a proper air force, they'll need a lot of time and investment for that. Maybe train their pilots at our institutions, embed them in our squadrons for a few months, expose them to our TACDE, etc.

IMO, they dont need 8xTejas.

What they need is 20xfighter trainers with good radars, and proper ground control with good ground radars, SAMs, and SHORAD systems. Else 8x tejas will be wiped on the ground in a first strike.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

They did... boi got hired by HAL didn't he? His work is famous in social media.



That's unlikely IMO. It's lower weight & drag than LGBs.

One Issue I can see is in trying to pull high AOA with them, twin launchers will put much more strain on the base pylon than a single launcher.

 

[mamamia12]

IMO, they dont need 8xTejas.

What they need is 20xfighter trainers with good radars, and proper ground control with good ground radars, SAMs, and SHORAD systems. Else 8x tejas will be wiped on the ground in a first strike.

I don't think giving them Tejas is a good idea. Its gonna be badly utilized and who knows even a small FPV drone will take it out. Armenians first need the will to fight. Their political administration recently giving lectures that may surrender some land to appease Azerbaijan. They seem shortsighted to notice that one give an inch to Muzzie, he asks for whole country. They will definitely fuck it up before it even sees combat.

 

[Bleh]

One Issue I can see is in trying to pull high AOA with them, twin launchers will put much more strain on the base pylon than a single launcher.

Not so significant... The BVR launchers are themselves lighter than CCMs with their launchers (assuming the missiles will be gone by the time of high-AoA).

I don't think giving them Tejas is a good idea. Its gonna be badly utilized and who knows even a small FPV drone will take it out. Armenians first need the will to fight. Their political administration recently giving lectures that may surrender some land to appease Azerbaijan. They seem shortsighted to notice that one give an inch to Muzzie, he asks for whole country. They will definitely fuck it up before it even sees combat.

I agree here... A 1st strike will take out the whole AF or a sudden local breakthrough may get a jet captured intact.

Too small nations with their distance across lesser than range of Tejas' standoff weapons or A2G missiles. They don't need air-power. Drones & missiles will do enough in strike roke at such small scale. Maybe attack helos. That's it.