LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[NutCracker]

A lot of components are sourced from MSME & other external vendors. Only some parts are made in HAL which are high end technology & sensitive in nature.

I won't say that all the machinery has spare capacity but most do. It is practically impossible for a machine to be working at even 80% capacity when it has no manufacture only a small number of planes a year. I am not speaking of just the presses & punching machines. Even chipsets are made in foundries in batches of 500-1000 wafers, with each wafer having about 50+ military grade chips. Just look at the scale of manufacturing of mobile phones, automobiles etc to understand how much manufacturing can be done by machines

Do you have any proof that HAL/MSME are not running on full capacity, and how much of 48000Cr deal included "one time" capital expenditure?
Because otherwise it would be you pulling claims out of your behind just for the sake of defending your stance of LCA deal being expensive.
One stage or another, there will always be bottleneck. Which will need additional capital expenditure. Just because one can make 1000 wafers doesn't mean same amount of planes can be made with current infra at other stages .

 

[NutCracker]

Try to understand my point - the engines cost just $5-6 million. The radars will be Indian and most other critical components will be from India. So, why does it need even 500 crores per plane? Why do Indian components cost so highly?

No, engine cost was 7M$ for the previous deal itself. You can wonder how much more will cost now 3-4 years later

 

[MirageBlue]

Jaguar has higher ferry range, I agree. But Jaguars are slow and have poor maneuverability. It will be shot down with great ease even by junk fighters like F7 and Mirage 3.

The real shortfall is in terms of offensive capability as they can't fly far enough to attack enemy bases. Mk1B can't be made just by extending the plane. It needs full redesign and that is MWF or Mk2.

Jaguar's ferry range is almost similar to that of the Tejas Mk1. Confirmed by Grp Cpt HV Thakur. Combat range isn't very far away either. So why can't a Tejas Mk1 perform a stand off strike or even a CAS sortie when it has the weapons to do so?

 

[Samej Jangir]

Also MKI is coming with a cheaper Russian engine against a costlier US engine.
Also MKI is coming with a cheaper Russian ejector seat against a costlier Martin Baker seat.
Also MKI is coming with a DEBEL Helmet against a costlier US/Israeli DASH helmet.
Also MKI is coming with a BARS RADAR which anyway will be cheaper then a AESA.

I forgot to add Titanium sheet against Carbon composite. Please add that too in equation.

India has indigenised Su30 helmets and will likely indigenise the Tejas helmets too given more orders. Also, there is no defect in Russian ejection seat and hence it makes no sense to buy Martin Baker if it is expensive. Ejection seats are low end tech which have been around since WW2 and hence no need to spend high.

Then the problem is solved. If we've already developed a twin seater trainer , we've to merely replace the 2nd seat with a fuel tank . I know it's easier said than done but it won't call for extensive redesign or testing.

We need the extra 97 to be stationed on our northern & eastern borders . Otherwise 180+40 FAs of the same type is overkill for our western neighbour.

Do you have any proof that HAL/MSME are not running on full capacity, and how much of 48000Cr deal included "one time" capital expenditure?
Because otherwise it would be you pulling claims out of your behind just for the sake of defending your stance of LCA deal being expensive.
One stage or another, there will always be bottleneck. Which will need additional capital expenditure. Just because one can make 1000 wafers doesn't mean same amount of planes can be made with current infra at other stages .

Do you have any proof that the machines are running on full capacity? Typical loser attitude to ask for proof instead of giving logical replies. Can you give me one example of a major product (non manual) which will need additional machines for increase in production from 16 to 32 planes a year?

Jaguar's ferry range is almost similar to that of the Tejas Mk1. Confirmed by Grp Cpt HV Thakur. Combat range isn't very far away either. So why can't a Tejas Mk1 perform a stand off strike or even a CAS sortie when it has the weapons to do so?

Tejas can definitely replace Jaguars for CAS roles and in fact will be even more potent as Tejas is much faster and more maneuverable. But CAS roles are only 2nd stage roles which is done for supporting ground invasion. The frontline roles are always offensive ones. This is why I am saying that Tejas Mk1 is not the right plane to be mass manufactured. India needs MWF or Tejas Mk2 which will be a multirole plane capable of doing all tasks

 

[NutCracker]

Do you have any proof that the machines are running on full capacity? Typical loser attitude to ask for proof instead of giving logical replies. Can you give me one example of a major product (non manual) which will need additional machines for increase in production from 16 to 32 planes a year?

your brain can only think upto metal plate stamping machines, why do you think HAL has chosen a separate location nearby same B'lore line to expand instead of just saying that we will build additional 16 from the same assembly line. where do you think the additional equipment and trained manpower to populate that location is gonna come from ?
And yes same logic is applied to MSMEs too. and its more difficult/expensive for them to expand , because they dont always have huge land parcels available like HAL had in its vicinity.

watch the video from 4:25

 

[Samej Jangir]

your brain can only think upto metal plate stamping machines, why do you think HAL has chosen a separate location nearby same B'lore line to expand instead of just saying that we will build additional 16 from the same assembly line. where do you think the additional equipment and trained manpower to populate that location is gonna come from ?
And yes same logic is applied to MSMEs too. and its more difficult/expensive for them to expand , because they dont always have huge land parcels available like HAL had in its vicinity.

watch the video from 4:25

Do you know how little it took for assembly line of Rafales being set up by DRAL? Assembly lines are not manufacturing units but assembly units. It just needs tools and framework for manual assembly. It does not require heavy machinery

 

[NutCracker]

Do you know how little it took for assembly line of Rafales being set up by DRAL? Assembly lines are not manufacturing units but assembly units. It just needs tools and framework for manual assembly. It does not require heavy machinery

If it's small part of value chain, why is Dassault asking for the minimum order of 100 of them for setting up the assembly line here.

 

[Corvus Splendens]

I was wondering what are the real shortfalls in an Quick Response , Air Interceptor, CAS FA such as we possess namely the MiG-21 / LCA Mk-1 / Mk-1a ?

As of now the former is set for retirement & of the latter , eventually most will be upgraded to Mk-1a standards but all of them remain short legged FA .

Hence , that's the key to the next iteration in the Mk-1a . Assuming this new iteration to be called Mk-1b which'd need extra fuel space which means addition of 1-2 mtrs in the fuselage , how much time would the ADA / HAL need to develop such a FA ?

Conformal Fuel Tanks are the answer for keeping hardpoints free.

 

[NutCracker]

Conformal Fuel Tanks are the answer for keeping hardpoints free.

10-12 years down the line, Kaveri with 55/90 kN . We might be able to pull mid life upgrade on FOC tejas.

 

[Samej Jangir]

If it's small part of value chain, why is Dassault asking for the minimum order of 100 of them for setting up the assembly line here.

They are asking for 150 orders for TOT. Rafale will involve significant TOT of its design. Otherwise, India would never buy Rafales when it has Su30MKI anyways

 

[NutCracker]

They are asking for 150 orders for TOT. Rafale will involve significant TOT of its design. Otherwise, India would never buy Rafales when it has Su30MKI anyways

TOT was never on the offer.
It was plain and simple MRO/ assembly.

You think TATA is getting TOT while assembling 100+ C295 ?

 

[Samej Jangir]

TOT was never on the offer.
It was plain and simple MRO/ assembly.

You think TATA is getting TOT while assembling 100+ C295 ?

Yes, there is TOT. It won't involve engines, radars, avionics etc but the airframe will likely have full TOT. So, if India can fit its own electronics, Kaveri engine and UTTAM radars inside, it can be indigenised eventually

 

[NutCracker]

Yes, there is TOT. It won't involve engines, radars, avionics etc but the airframe will likely have full TOT. So, if India can fit its own electronics, Kaveri engine and UTTAM radars inside, it can be indigenised eventually

And to do that you will need specific proprietary equipment's and software, that's why assembly lines need substantial capital expenditure.

 

[Samej Jangir]

And to do that you will need specific proprietary equipment's and software, that's why assembly lines need substantial capital expenditure.

Yeah, that is why the design TOT for airframe is sought after which includes FBW codes and other basic aerodynamics. Once the airframe is indigenised, the electronics are plug and play. Su30 also was indigenised similarly. Mere assembly is practically useless and India would never have done that as Su30 was already indigenised and there was no need for imported Rafales. Parrikar also made a statement saying India has Su30 and Rafales are not critical need. This is probably why France agreed to some of Indian terms.

As for assembly line alone, the cost of set up is not very high. Assembly lines are just platforms for engineers to work upon

 

[no smoking]

Jaguar's ferry range is almost similar to that of the Tejas Mk1. Confirmed by Grp Cpt HV Thakur. Combat range isn't very far away either. So why can't a Tejas Mk1 perform a stand off strike or even a CAS sortie when it has the weapons to do so?

Jaguar was designed during cold war targeting those soviet armor column and their logistic system in Eastern European countries. Considering the size of European countries and the number of the airports and other infrastructure, a small ferry range is not a problem for it. But in a potential war against China, if you want Tejas to perform offensive role, the range obviously is a problem.

 

[raju1982]

Here's DRDO's report about indigenous mfg of GaN based HEMT material :

Yes, tech is ready. May be next year we will see first Uttam with GaN. But as mentioned by someone earlier we did not have mass production of GaN for fighter radar few years back. We surely had for lab tests. Developing/testing and manufacturing are two diffefent things. I can see GAETEC and STARC mentioned as pilot production agencies.


Thanks a lot for sharing the TF article. Earloer used to follow it a lot.

 

[raju1982]

We are Ready to manufacture -astra microwave
Su30 will have Gan based radar there is no doubt it..

View attachment 231435

Ready to manufacture and having a GaN based fighter aircraft AESA are two different things bro. DRDO chiefs talking (specially Mr Christoph used to talk in much advance ) about GaN radars for very long time, but till now i have not seen any tested. GaN MMICs are being tested only. But manufacturing them in tens of thousands are diff tech altogether. May be next year we will see.

 

[Satish Sharma]

Ready to manufacture and having a GaN based fighter aircraft AESA are two different things bro. DRDO chiefs talking (specially Mr Christoph used to talk in much advance ) about GaN radars for very long time, but till now i have not seen any tested. GaN MMICs are being tested only. But manufacturing them in tens of thousands are diff tech altogether. May be next year we will see.

This are GaN producing companies
Agnit Semiconductors
Tagore Technology
Indian Institute of Science
Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).
The scaled up is in testing and most likely it has completed its all testing.

 

[Satish Sharma]

Yes, tech is ready. May be next year we will see first Uttam with GaN. But as mentioned by someone earlier we did not have mass production of GaN for fighter radar few years back. We surely had for lab tests. Developing/testing and manufacturing are two diffefent things. I can see GAETEC and STARC mentioned as pilot production agencies.


Thanks a lot for sharing the TF article. Earloer used to follow it a lot.

Uttam with GaN is already there (scaled up for su30

 

[HariPrasad-1]

No,both have their own defined roles.
Do we need to scramble an MWF every time an inferior quality Pak JF!7 comes near or enters Indian airspace.
The Tejas Mk2 will be overkill for the JF17.

If we have MWF, JF 17 can not come close. We have bought Rafale for Overkilling purpose only. We do not use more rafale because it is costly. If Rafale is available and cna be operated at a cost 20% higher than MK1A, we shall use Rafale only. MWF is not going to significantly costly so we can use it where ever it is required. Tejas MK1 does not offer anything over MWF except saving of few bucks, on other hand, Chances of Survival of MWF mon any mission shall be much higher than Tejas. Had MWF been operational, IAF would never think of giving any order of Tejas Mk1A. It is just a stop gap.