LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[NutCracker]

The assembly line cost if not very high but the cost of manufacturing the parts is high as it requires complex machinery and tooling. The machinery used for 83 MK1A can also be used for 97 orders as the typical use of machinery to make parts are not very high. Also, 2 shifts can be made to operate the same machine without any additional fixed cost. This is why I am asking as to why there is no deduction of fixed infrastructure cost

2 shifts , are you gonna pay extra night allowance , and then whine about extra cost ? And who told you that assmeblies for various sub components are already not running at full capacity.(don't confuse it to 24*7) .

Let the deal be finalised. Sit down till then.

 

[Azaad]

First of all, the specifications of the second order of 97 more Tejas Mk1A has NOT been finalized. Even earlier, Air Cmde Muthanna (former Tejas TP at HAL) had stated that there should be updates made to the Tejas Mk1A ordered as part of the 97 unit batch to replace parts/avionics/items/LRUs that would have become more obsolescent in the 5-6 years that it will take for those 97 to get on the assembly line.

Even the IAF ACM Chaudhari confirmed the same that these 97 would have some more changes compared to the 83, since they'll be coming onto the assembly line after 2027.

Once HAL knows what the IAF is asking for, it'll be able to respond with a contract figure. Till then it is all speculation.

I was wondering what are the real shortfalls in an Quick Response , Air Interceptor, CAS FA such as we possess namely the MiG-21 / LCA Mk-1 / Mk-1a ?

As of now the former is set for retirement & of the latter , eventually most will be upgraded to Mk-1a standards but all of them remain short legged FA .

Hence , that's the key to the next iteration in the Mk-1a . Assuming this new iteration to be called Mk-1b which'd need extra fuel space which means addition of 1-2 mtrs in the fuselage , how much time would the ADA / HAL need to develop such a FA ?

 

[Chinmoy]

The machinery used for 83 MK1A can also be used for 97 orders as the typical use of machinery to make parts are not very high.

Very Good. It means the delivery of all the jets will be done by 2032/33. Is it ok to wait till 2032 for a jet for which you will place order in 2024?

Also, 2 shifts can be made to operate the same machine without any additional fixed cost. This is why I am asking as to why there is no deduction of fixed infrastructure cost

@NutCracker already answered to this. But why just 2 shift. The assembly line can work in 3 shifts.

So just chill. There would be negotiations done in between IAF and HAL before signing deal. In case of 83 jets, IAF paid HAL ~37000 crore instead of the allotted ~48000 Crore.
So in this case too, it would see a huge cost cut.

 

[TopWatcher]

Sometimes i think why space science is so easy compare to jet engine technology.

We reached moon, but not able to crack jet engine technology. If space science is so easy than why other countries not able to work on space science.

 

[MirageBlue]

Yes, MK1A is a stepping stone for MK2. But that does not mean Mk1 is capable. It has too short range to be able to act offensively. It is mostly suitable for defensive roles like interception. But it would have been better to use a plane which is capable for both offensive and defensive roles rather than a single role jet.

The problem with having large number of Mk1A is that during wars when India will have to go on the offensive, there will be a shortage of aircrafts as these Mk1s and Mk1A are only capable of short range flights. This will mean the effective number of planes for usage in offensive actions will be significantly reduced

Ok, how much range (ferry range? combat range?) does it have and how does that compare to the Jaguar or the MiG-27M? Provide data please.

 

[Chinmoy]

Sometimes i think why space science is so easy compare to jet engine technology.

We reached moon, but not able to crack jet engine technology. If space science is so easy than why other countries not able to work on space science.

If we go Russki and Chini way, then jet engine too could be achieved very fast.

 

[Azaad]

Ok, how much range (ferry range? combat range?) does it have and how does that compare to the Jaguar or the MiG-27M? Provide data please.

He does have a point even if he hasn't articulated it well. It also emphasises why the MRFA is needed & why the Mk-1 / Mk-1a in its present form will see service only on the western front not on the northern or eastern front.

 

[Blood+]

If we go Russki and Chini way, then jet engine too could be achieved very fast.

Could you please elaborate a bit??

 

[Chinmoy]

Could you please elaborate a bit??

Lingering issue with Kaveri as of today is inadequate thrust generation.

It could be addressed by adding more compressor spool in the classic Soviet way. But it would result in a more heavier engine.

 

[Samej Jangir]

2 shifts , are you gonna pay extra night allowance , and then whine about extra cost ? And who told you that assmeblies for various sub components are already not running at full capacity.(don't confuse it to 24*7) .

Let the deal be finalised. Sit down till then.

Do you know how many Tejas will be made in 1 year? At most 40-50. Do you think a machine is capable of making parts for only 40-50 planes in a whole year? There is a reason why the prices are so high in defence equipments compared to civilian goods - low scale of production. The main reason for low production is political as mass production would cause panic amongst enemy states and result in arms race. So, it is highly unlikely that machines are running at capacity. Although manpower may be hired in lesser numbers and made to work on multiple machines.
So, only increase will be in terms of manpower. If there is less space/room for manpower, 2 shifts can be made like 8-4 & 4-12. It won't cost overtime as different set of workers are working in different shift.

Very Good. It means the delivery of all the jets will be done by 2032/33. Is it ok to wait till 2032 for a jet for which you will place order in 2024?
@NutCracker already answered to this. But why just 2 shift. The assembly line can work in 3 shifts.
So just chill. There would be negotiations done in between IAF and HAL before signing deal. In case of 83 jets, IAF paid HAL ~37000 crore instead of the allotted ~48000 Crore.
So in this case too, it would see a huge cost cut.

Rafale was ordered in 2016 & delivered in 2023. I don't see you raising much concerns there despite the numbers being just 36 compared to 170 Tejas.

Ok, how much range (ferry range? combat range?) does it have and how does that compare to the Jaguar or the MiG-27M? Provide data please.

Jaguar has higher ferry range, I agree. But Jaguars are slow and have poor maneuverability. It will be shot down with great ease even by junk fighters like F7 and Mirage 3.

I was wondering what are the real shortfalls in an Quick Response , Air Interceptor, CAS FA such as we possess namely the MiG-21 / LCA Mk-1 / Mk-1a ?

As of now the former is set for retirement & of the latter , eventually most will be upgraded to Mk-1a standards but all of them remain short legged FA .

Hence , that's the key to the next iteration in the Mk-1a . Assuming this new iteration to be called Mk-1b which'd need extra fuel space which means addition of 1-2 mtrs in the fuselage , how much time would the ADA / HAL need to develop such a FA ?

The real shortfall is in terms of offensive capability as they can't fly far enough to attack enemy bases. Mk1B can't be made just by extending the plane. It needs full redesign and that is MWF or Mk2.

 

[NutCracker]

Do you know how many Tejas will be made in 1 year? At most 40-50. Do you think a machine is capable of making parts for only 40-50 planes in a whole year? There is a reason why the prices are so high in defence equipments compared to civilian goods - low scale of production. The main reason for low production is political as mass production would cause panic amongst enemy states and result in arms race. So, it is highly unlikely that machines are running at capacity. Although manpower may be hired in lesser numbers and made to work on multiple machines.
So, only increase will be in terms of manpower. If there is less space/room for manpower, 2 shifts can be made like 8-4 & 4-12. It won't cost overtime as different set of workers are working in different shift.

Rafale was ordered in 2016 & delivered in 2023. I don't see you raising much concerns there despite the numbers being just 36 compared to 170 Tejas.

Jaguar has higher ferry range, I agree. But Jaguars are slow and have poor maneuverability. It will be shot down with great ease even by junk fighters like F7 and Mirage 3.

The real shortfall is in terms of offensive capability as they can't fly far enough to attack enemy bases. Mk1B can't be made just by extending the plane. It needs full redesign and that is MWF or Mk2.

Are you sitting in the factory making sure that assembly lines are already not running at full capacity ?

Or do you think every equipment in the Tejas is only made with press and punching some steele sheets ?

FYI , HAL already has two shifts 7:15-3:15,
And 4-12.

 

[Chinmoy]

Rafale was ordered in 2016 & delivered in 2023. I don't see you raising much concerns there despite the numbers being just 36 compared to 170 Tejas.

And that deal cost 59000 Crore in 2016 for 36 jets.

So 64000 Crore for double the jets also make sense that way.

 

[Samej Jangir]

Are you sitting in the factory making sure that assembly lines are already not running at full capacity ?

Or do you think every equipment in the Tejas is only made with press and punching some steele sheets ?

FYI , HAL already has two shifts 7:15-3:15,
And 4-12.

A lot of components are sourced from MSME & other external vendors. Only some parts are made in HAL which are high end technology & sensitive in nature.

I won't say that all the machinery has spare capacity but most do. It is practically impossible for a machine to be working at even 80% capacity when it has no manufacture only a small number of planes a year. I am not speaking of just the presses & punching machines. Even chipsets are made in foundries in batches of 500-1000 wafers, with each wafer having about 50+ military grade chips. Just look at the scale of manufacturing of mobile phones, automobiles etc to understand how much manufacturing can be done by machines

 

[Azaad]

Mk1B can't be made just by extending the plane. It needs full redesign and that is MWF or Mk2.

I know an Mk-1b can't be made by merely extending it without redesign & extensive testing . The question is how long will the process take . Equally what's the alternative ? Besides , are you suggesting that the Mk-2 is merely an extended version of the Mk-1a ?

 

[Samej Jangir]

And that deal cost 59000 Crore in 2016 for 36 jets.

So 64000 Crore for double the jets also make sense that way.

Imported items will always cost highly because they charge exorbitant rates. Also, 30-50% was offsets which was undisclosed by secrecy agreement. If you want better comparison, compare with Su30 cost which is much bigger plane and has 2 engines- just 42 crores in 2016

 

[Samej Jangir]

I know an Mk-1b can't be made by merely extending it without redesign & extensive testing . The question is how long will the process take . Equally what's the alternative ? Besides , are you suggesting that the Mk-2 is merely an extended version of the Mk-1a ?

Extending a plane will have serious problems in aerodynamics, maneuverability etc. All of this will need redesign & serious changes in coding. Extending is easy in aerodynamically stable aircrafts like cargo planes, Boeing 747 etc as they don't need extensive maneuverability. But fir fighter jet, it is as highly time consuming. Just look at how much time it too for Tejas trainer to be made despite the development in early stages.

 

[Satish Sharma]

If we go Russki and Chini way, then jet engine too could be achieved very fast.

Yes just add 4 LP & 9 HP stages then kaveri will also make 90kn thrust like rd93. That's the Ruski chini way. With 2000hrs life.
Kaveri make 52kn dry with 3LP & 6 HP stages I think our single crystal blades are ahead of Ruski.
And 81kn wet thrust

 

[jai jaganath]

Philippines, Argentina, Egypt Interested In Procuring Tejas Jet: HAL Chief

Nigeria, Philippines, Argentina and Egypt have shown interest in procuring indigenously-developed Tejas Light Combat Aircraft, CB Ananthakrishnan, the Chairman and Managing Director of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, said on Wednesday.

www.ndtv.com

Bas baten karalo

 

[Chinmoy]

Imported items will always cost highly because they charge exorbitant rates. Also, 30-50% was offsets which was undisclosed by secrecy agreement. If you want better comparison, compare with Su30 cost which is much bigger plane and has 2 engines- just 42 crores in 2016

Also MKI is coming with a cheaper Russian engine against a costlier US engine.
Also MKI is coming with a cheaper Russian ejector seat against a costlier Martin Baker seat.
Also MKI is coming with a DEBEL Helmet against a costlier US/Israeli DASH helmet.
Also MKI is coming with a BARS RADAR which anyway will be cheaper then a AESA.

I forgot to add Titanium sheet against Carbon composite. Please add that too in equation.

 

[Azaad]

Extending a plane will have serious problems in aerodynamics, maneuverability etc. All of this will need redesign & serious changes in coding. Extending is easy in aerodynamically stable aircrafts like cargo planes, Boeing 747 etc as they don't need extensive maneuverability. But fir fighter jet, it is as highly time consuming.

Just look at how much time it too for Tejas trainer to be made despite the development in early stages.

Then the problem is solved. If we've already developed a twin seater trainer , we've to merely replace the 2nd seat with a fuel tank . I know it's easier said than done but it won't call for extensive redesign or testing.

We need the extra 97 to be stationed on our northern & eastern borders . Otherwise 180+40 FAs of the same type is overkill for our western neighbour.