LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[Bleh]

IAF has no problem to operate Mig-21 for another 5 years but can't order more Tejas mk1 with FOC. there will be a gap between mk1 and MK1a ( 2021 to 2023 ). Do IAF really believes these obsolete Mig-21 have any significance in war scenario??
If, Yes then Tejas will have twice significance then Mig-21
If, No then why they are hell bend to operate these non-reliable planes. Order more Tejas and retire Mig -21
Tejas manufacturing is slow because of timelines are given by IAF in that way. HAL has to deliver 24 aircraft till Tejas mk1a inducted in 2023 so no point ramp up production of Tejas for now
IAF wants to operate Mig-21 only to make excuse to buy foreign maal so whenever Mig-21 will crash our chief will cry and say nobody even uses a car that much

I think, and this is just a speculation, that there is too much design difference between the air frames of Mark1 & Mark1A for the former to be upgraded into the latter. The weight reduction, aerodynamic & maintainability refinements will take serious fuselage modifications.
While the Mig-21 are going to retire by 2025, those Tejas would continue beyond 2050. So if they can't reach that, then upgraded FOC Tejas may end up with some shortcomings compared to Mark1A ones (but will still remain formidable enough for Paki JF-17 and F-16).

Can't think of any other reason to not extend the FOC Tejas order by 2-3 more squadrons... It's technologically at par with Mirage-2000-5 & Mig-29UPG.

Again, lack of basic knowledge is displayed by you.
Mk1A is from 2023 is not a "gap" but a "delay" caused by HAL's delay in responding to IAF's queries on the RFP and on price finalization. IAF wanted Mk1A as soon as possible. In fact IAF themselves complained to MOD against lacklustre attitude shown by HAL on this issue.

If Mk1A is delayed because of HAL, it is unfair to ask IAF to order more Mk1.

Also, suggesting to order more Mk1 just because of obsolete Migs is laughable. IAF doesn't want light fighters anymore. It wants only medium weight and heavies. So why would they order more Mk1s and encumber themselves with more light fighters for next 40 years? Makes no sense.

I think you misunderstood what he meant... They're already ordering 83 light fighters & that's a significant number. 20-40 more FOC jets will allow HAL's extra converted Hawk line to start producing now, before Mark1A arrives in 2022. Otherwise they have no reason to finish the small order quickly & let both assembly-lines sit idle for a year.

Seems like he is not the one who's lacking basic knowledge here.

 

[patriots]

At MTOW it will definitely be a bomb-truck and fly like a 747... same for Mirage-2000 going for strike mission. But not so at lower payloads.

Because empty weight of MWF is very close to empty weight of older Mark2 (will call that from now onwards), clean configuration thrust-to-weight ratio for both will be very similar if both are carrying same fuel, while MWF will turn better due to its canards.
Same if both are carrying equal payload of weapons. But MWF can carry more both fuel & armament, that increases its range & capability. Ideally it will burn that extra fuel & shoot those extra BVRs before getting into WVR with optimum T/W.

If it gets F414-EPE engine then it's performance will increase even more... Or will it get Safranised-Kaveri? I don't know. Confusing.

Again, lack of basic knowledge is displayed by you.
Mk1A is from 2023 is not a "gap" but a "delay" caused by HAL's delay in responding to IAF's queries on the RFP and on price finalization. IAF wanted Mk1A as soon as possible. In fact IAF themselves complained to MOD against lacklustre attitude shown by HAL on this issue.

If Mk1A is delayed because of HAL, it is unfair to ask IAF to order more Mk1.

Also, suggesting to order more Mk1 just because of obsolete Migs is laughable. IAF doesn't want light fighters anymore. It wants only medium weight and heavies. So why would they order more Mk1s and encumber themselves with more light fighters for next 40 years? Makes no sense.

Sir Dac is not cleared the mk1a deal till now ....
Price negotiation already done ...it's upto Dac to sign the deal ....
Bdw a lots of pending task is there ....
Like dual pylon ..integration...with ccm..then ccm firing
Then aesa integration...
Spj integration.. testing....
A lots of work....hope hal will complete those in 2 to 3 years ...
Then who 123 light fighter s to replace mig 21 and mig27
No more lca ....as lca can't replace those 114 ....mmrca
Hmm if Iaf buys 36 more rafale in g2g ...
And in budget constraint situation ..iaf can order more mk1a

 

[Defcon 1]

Sir Dac is not cleared the mk1a deal till now ....
Price negotiation already done ...it's upto Dac to sign the deal ....
Bdw a lots of pending task is there ....
Like dual pylon ..integration...with ccm..then ccm firing
Then aesa integration...
Spj integration.. testing....
A lots of work....hope hal will complete those in 2 to 3 years ...
Then who 123 light fighter s to replace mig 21 and mig27
No more lca ....as lca can't replace those 114 ....mmrca
Hmm if Iaf buys 36 more rafale in g2g ...
And in budget constraint situation ..iaf can order more mk1a

Small correction, DAC has cleared Mk1A, its IAF order which is pending:
https://m.economictimes.com/news/de...s-jets-and-464-tanks/articleshow/55295197.cms

Anyways didn't get the point that you are trying to make. Kindly be more clear

 

[Defcon 1]

I think you misunderstood what he meant... there already ordering 83 light fighters & that's a significant number. 20-40 more FOC jets will allow HAL's converted Hawk lines to start producing before 2023. Otherwise they have no reason to finish the order quickly & let the extra assembly-lines sit idle for a year.

Seems like he is not the one who's lacking basic knowledge here.

I will repeat again, IAF is not looking for anymore light fighters, so why would they order more Mk1? The Mk1A order was forced on IAF by parikar. Simple point you guys cannot understand but you want IAF to order thousands of crores of worth of equipment for your inner mental peace.

 

[Bleh]

Then who 123 light fighter s to replace mig 21 and mig27
No more lca ....as lca can't replace those 114 ....mmrca
Hmm if Iaf buys 36 more rafale in g2g ...
And in budget constraint situation ..iaf can order more mk1a

No no, he was talking about extending the Tejas Mark1 order. Read this one...

I will repeat again, IAF is not looking for anymore light fighters, so why would they order more Mk1? Simple point you guys cannot understand but you want IAF to order thousands of crores of worth of equipment for your inner mental peace.

And I will repeat again; your "logic" would make sense if they intended to do away with light fighters completely... But they're already going to operate 123, which is a fucking high number!!!.
Increasing that slightly to 143 by extending the FOC Tejas order by 20, would get them another extra squadron of Mirage-2000-5 quality jets before 2022. Otherwise HAL won't open the converted Hawk-line until Mark1A arrives then.

But it looks like with rapidly falling squadron strength the IAF has got pilots to spare, so they intend to get rid of some by putting them in the flying-coffins!

 

[Defcon 1]

And I will repeat again; your "logic" would make sense if they intended to do away with light fighters completely... But they're already going to operate 123, which is a fucking high number!!!.
Increasing that to 143 by extending the FOC Tejas order by 20, would get them another extra squadron of Mirage-2000-5 quality jets before 2022. Otherwise HAL won't open the converted Hawk-line until then.

But it looks like with rapidly falling squadron strength they have pilots to spare, so the intend to put some in the flying-coffins

A fucking high number forced upon them. So basically you are saying that if IAF has already been forced to buy 123 light fighters, they should let go of all sense and buy 20 more. Like if a robber has already taken your wallet, surrender him your watch as well.

Mirage 2000-5 quality? What does that even mean? Mirage 2000-5 has much better fuel and payload capacity than Mk1. And yet it will be retired in next 10-15 years. i.e by 2035. New LCA mk1 will have to serve till 2060. Get the difference?

Instead of asking IAF to order more MK1, why don't you ask HAL to start delivering MK1A earlier?

 

[patriots]

Small correction, DAC has cleared Mk1A, its IAF order which is pending:
https://m.economictimes.com/news/de...s-jets-and-464-tanks/articleshow/55295197.cms

Anyways didn't get the point that you are trying to make. Kindly be more clear

Initial clearance given....
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...out-defence-ministry/article29340242.ece/amp/

Sir I am supporting you ....that there is no point to order more Tejas......

Hmm you can order more mk1a..
If mod clears another 36 rafale...
And if it causes budget crunch..
In that situation...to add more no's iaf can order more mk1a....

 

[Bleh]

A fucking high number forced upon them. So basically you are saying that if IAF has already been forced to buy 123 light fighters, they should let go of all sense and buy 20 more. Like if a robber has already taken your wallet, surrender him your watch as well.

Mirage 2000-5 quality? What does that even mean? Mirage 2000-5 has much better fuel and payload capacity than Mk1. And yet it will be retired in next 10-15 years. i.e by 2035. New LCA mk1 will have to serve till 2060. Get the difference?

Instead of asking IAF to order more MK1, why don't you ask HAL to start delivering MK1A before?

The bottomline is, that they're going to be operating them in droves.
So basically I'm saying IAF could get another squadron of those fighters, technologically at par with upgraded Mirage-2000 & with Mark1A's upgrades later, capable enough to take out anything that Pakistan atleast has to offer in foreseeable future.

It's either this, or continue thinning the herd of surplus pilots on flying-coffins until 2025... And they have clearly chosen the latter option.

 

[patriots]

The bottomline is, that they're going to be operating them in droves.
So I'm saying IAF could get another squadron of those fighters, technologically at par with upgraded Mirage-2000 right now & with Mark1A's upgrades, capable enough to take out anything that Pakistan atleast has to offer in foreseeable future.

It's either this, or continue thinning the herd of surplus pilots on flying-coffins... And they have clearly chosen the latter option.

Ya...iaf can order ...but it's upto them

China has 400+ j10s..

They have j10 a..j10b..j10c.......
123 Tejas is a good...number though....
If iaf oreders 200 mwf..then it will be great...
After 2030...iaf will have 200+ Indian jets

 

[Defcon 1]

The bottomline is, that they're going to be operating them in droves.
So I'm saying IAF could get another squadron of those fighters, technologically at par with upgraded Mirage-2000 right now & with Mark1A's upgrades, capable enough to take out anything that Pakistan atleast has to offer in foreseeable future.

Thank you for accepting that IAF doesn't want light fighters and LCA is inferior to Mirage 2000 in terms of range and payload.
As for your part in red, JF17 block 3 with AESA will be superior to Tejas Mk1 with EL-2032, and that is just what is in public. Pakistanis can have other acquisition programs that are not known to us as well.

It's either this, or continue thinning the herd of surplus pilots on flying-coffins... And they have clearly chosen the latter option.

They are choosing to fly with flying coffins now to keep us safe instead of messing up their squadrons composition in future. Anyways, I targetted the other poster only because he claimed that IAF is doing this only as an excuse to buy foreign maal, which was an unsubstantiated claim and frankly a lie he often repeats whenever the forces don't buy his favorite weapon. Don't understand why did you get mixed up in it. Anyways, now since we all agree on everything, hope the discussion is at an end.

 

[Bleh]

As for your part in red, JF17 block 3 with AESA will be superior to Tejas Mk1 with EL-2032.

Meh... Jf-17 Block 3 isn't even ready yet. By the time they're inducted in any numbers, Tejas FOC could have Uttam AESA. Even before that the already compatible Mark1A's features like dual-racks, ECM, new supersonic drop-tanks, maybe Brahmos-NG too.

Derby from a light fighter doing CAP can take out an incursing J-10 or F-16 just as easily, as was displayed very recently... right now, even better than a Su-30 with outdated R-77.

 

[vishnugupt]

I will repeat again, IAF is not looking for anymore light fighters, so why would they order more Mk1? The Mk1A order was forced on IAF by parikar. Simple point you guys cannot understand but you want IAF to order thousands of crores of worth of equipment for your inner mental peace.

Brilliant! now this champ is saying that entire LCA program was a waste of money because IAF doesn't want light aircraft. Parikar forced it.
Since 1983 IAF was sleeping, poor fellows were not aware of there is a LCA program going on. this was 2017 when IAF woke up in "SAAB Grepin's cockpit" and find out ... HEY we need only medium fighter

 

[Bleh]

...poor fellows were not aware of there is a LCA program going on. this was 2017 when IAF woke up in "SAAB Grepin's cockpit" and find out ... HEY we need only medium fighter

Point.
MWF was not IAF's brainchild... It was what the Tejas design grew to become as HAL/ADA kept modifying it to meet performance & capability requirements.

 

[Defcon 1]

Brilliant! now this champ is saying that entire LCA program was a waste of money because IAF doesn't want light aircraft. Parikar forced it.
Since 1983 IAF was sleeping, poor fellows were not aware of there is a LCA program going on. this was 2017 when IAF woke up in "SAAB Grepin's cockpit" and find out ... HEY we need only medium fighter

More stupidity. LCA program as envisioned in 1983 was expected to deliver first operational fighter in mid 90's. Since the first fighter was delivered in mid 2010s, the requirements changed, as happens in every defence project.

And no, IAF didn't wake up in 2017. Mk2 project was sanctioned back in 2009. IAF never intended more than 40 lca mk1, even those were ordered to support the indigenous program even though they failed to meet the requirements. IAF was actually interested in mk2. Actually if someone has enough brain to go back to articles of 2014, they will find that DRDO had promised to equip IAF with 4 squadrons of mk2 by 2022. This is not expected of you since you do not have brains. Mk1a was born only when DRDO failed to keep yet another lofty promise and the reality struck.

 

[vishnugupt]

More stupidity. LCA program as envisioned in 1983 was expected to deliver first operational fighter in mid 90's. Since the first fighter was delivered in mid 2010s, the requirements changed, as happens in every defence project.

And no, IAF didn't wake up in 2017. Mk2 project was sanctioned back in 2009. IAF never intended more than 40 lca mk1, even those were ordered to support the indigenous program even though they failed to meet the requirements. IAF was actually interested in mk2. Actually if someone has enough brain to go back to articles of 2014, they will find that DRDO had promised to equip IAF with 4 squadrons of mk2 by 2022. This is not expected of you since you do not have brains. Mk1a was born only when DRDO failed to keep yet another lofty promise and the reality struck.

Ya DRDO failed same as Rafale A, B failed, so they have to developed D same as F-16 A, B,C failed same Gripen A, B, C failed.
But what is this Jaguar?? Since I born this mighty scam of IAF keep on upgrading but still, this didn't fail IAF even they are scavenging Jaguars from graveyards, such a mighty aircraft refuse to be old

 

[Defcon 1]

Ya DRDO failed same as Rafale A, B failed, so they have to developed D same as F-16 A, B,C failed same Gripen A, B, C failed.
But what is this Jaguar?? Since I born this mighty scam of IAF keep on upgrading but still, this didn't fail IAF even they are scavenging Jaguars from graveyards, such a mighty aircraft refuse to be old

Neither Rafale A,B nor gripen A,B failed. They were early versions of the same fighter. Like lca mk1 is to mk1a and they would be upgraded to latest standards during MLU. Gripen has already served successfully for 20 years. On the contrary, lca mk1 and mk1a can never be upgraded to mwf levels since both are basically different fighters.

As for jaguar, again it would be retired by 2035.

Anyways clearly you don't know anything about the LCA program as is clear from your previous posts. That is why you are now trying to bring rafale, gripen and jaguar in the equation when I have called out your lies on LCA.

The basic problem is that you have some personal axe to grind with IAF. That is why you keep blaming them without proof. The amount of effort you are spending in disparaging IAF would be much better served in trying to learn about actual history of IAF procurements.

 

[Flying Dagger]

IAF has no problem to operate Mig-21 for another 5 years but can't order more Tejas mk1 with FOC. there will be a gap between mk1 and MK1a ( 2021 to 2023 ). Do IAF really believes these obsolete Mig-21 have any significance in war scenario??
If, Yes then Tejas will have twice significance then Mig-21
If, No then why they are hell bend to operate these non-reliable planes. Order more Tejas and retire Mig -21
Tejas manufacturing is slow because of timelines are given by IAF in that way. HAL has to deliver 24 aircraft till Tejas mk1a inducted in 2023 so no point ramp up production of Tejas for now
IAF wants to operate Mig-21 only to make excuse to buy foreign maal so whenever Mig-21 will crash our chief will cry and say nobody even uses a car that much

Well they are caught in a tussle between whether to waste money for mk1 or use it for mk1 a and mk2 . Infact what they want is mk 2 remember they have to operate these jet for another 25- 30 years atleast.

The fault is from all side and we seriously lack management of indigenous projects that is what hampering us more not the other reasons like IAF is an imported airforce or HAL / ADA is trash. We need people with management skills to run the project and deliver on time and not babudom of bureaucrats.

Tejas is delayed by more than a decade we should have gone for mk2 MWF in 2007-8 itself when IAF gave signals that LCA isn't enough. We didn't do it then despite understanding the future threat scenario and capability required we woke up pretty late with idea of MWF. This is a situation which should have been solved in 2000-10 time period by buying either more mirage or mig 29 to keep IAF sq no. around 35-40 we didn't do it then and instead went shopping for big ticket like MMRCA only to find out our purse doesn't have that much cash required.

Keeping mig 21 affloat is the only solution now no need to make hue n cry over that . Either you have an undefended airspace or defended by mig 21. They have already reduced flying those jets so couple squadrons won't hurt much and keep the no. of squadrons well enough for porks.

 

[Defcon 1]

Well they are caught in a tussle between whether to waste money for mk1 or use it for mk1 a and mk2 . Infact what they want is mk 2 remember they have to operate these jet for another 25- 30 years atleast.

The fault is from all side and we seriously lack management of indigenous projects that is what hampering us more not the other reasons like IAF is an imported airforce or HAL / ADA is trash. We need people with management skills to run the project and deliver on time and not babudom of bureaucrats.

Tejas is delayed by more than a decade we should have gone for mk2 MWF in 2007-8 itself when IAF have such kind of signals . We didn't do it then despite understanding the future threat scenario and capability required we woke up pretty late with idea of MWF. This is a situation which should have been solved in 2000-10 time period by buying either more mirage or mig 29 to keep IAF sq no. around 35-40 we didn't do it then and instead went shopping for big ticket like MMRCA only to find out does our purse doesn't have that much cash required.

Keeping mig 21 affloat is the only solution now no need to make hue n cry over that . Either you have an undefended airspace or defended by mig 21. They have already reduced flying those jets so couple squadrons won't hurt much and keep the no. of squadrons well enough for porks.

Actually we did go for mk2 in 2007-08. The project was officially sanctioned in 2009.

 

[vishnugupt]

Neither Rafale A,B nor gripen A,B failed. They were early versions of the same fighter. Like lca mk1 is to mk1a and they would be upgraded to latest standards during MLU. Gripen has already served successfully for 20 years. On the contrary, lca mk1 and mk1a can never be upgraded to mwf levels since both are basically different fighters.

As for jaguar, again it would be retired by 2035.

Anyways clearly you don't know anything about the LCA program as is clear from your previous posts. That is why you are now trying to bring rafale, gripen and jaguar in the equation when I have called out your lies on LCA.

The basic problem is that you have some personal axe to grind with IAF. That is why you keep blaming them without proof. The amount of effort you are spending in disparaging IAF would be much better served in trying to learn about actual history of IAF procurements.

For you, IAF is an innocent child who knows nothing even they don't know what is their need for future.

 

[Flying Dagger]

30 characters limit is an amazing rule