LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[DumbPilot]

I have a question
Can we export NG CCM to Argentina as it's just a license version of British ASRAAM.
Cause if we can't why aren't we working on an indigenous WVR missile.

Pretty sure that NG CCM is not a license produced version of ASRAAM in my knowledge. Where did you read so?

 

[Azaad]

Pretty sure that NG CCM is not a license produced version of ASRAAM in my knowledge. Where did you read so?

He's confusing two separate developments. The ASRAAM is scheduled to be mfgd in India with full ToT for our indigenous requirements & exports. Parallelly the DRDO is developing a fairly advanced CCM.

 

[DumbPilot]

He's confusing two separate developments. The ASRAAM is scheduled to be mfgd in India with full ToT for our indigenous requirements & exports. Parallely the DRDO is developing a fairly advanced CCM.

Yeah I believe that somethuing like the Astra and NG CMM are a must for the air force. Even with imported weapons, having our own production capability means that we produce it at will, no strings attached

 

[standard snowball]

Pretty sure that NG CCM is not a license produced version of ASRAAM in my knowledge. Where did you read so?

check at 0:50

Both the missiles seem way to similar to not be a license produced version

 

[DumbPilot]

check at 0:50
View attachment 222071View attachment 222072

Both the missiles seem way to similar to not be a license produced version

Form != Origin

Otherwise, you might as well call the Israeli Python-5 a license produced version of the Russian AA-11/R-73

The NG CCM is pretty much indigenous. We copy that exterior form, because perhaps that is the best choice for aerodynamics and such as we arrived through our own research, but the internal electronics, guidance logics, etc .. are completely designed and integrated by us

 

[standard snowball]

Form != Origin

Otherwise, you might as well call the Israeli Python-5 a license produced version of the Russian AA-11/R-73

The NG CCM is pretty much indigenous. We copy that exterior form, because perhaps that is the best choice for aerodynamics and such as we arrived through our own research, but the internal electronics, guidance logics, etc .. are completely designed and integrated by us

Then why are we planning to make ASRAAM as our standard CCM.
Also the exterior difference between MG CCM and AsRAAM is way less than R 73 and Python 5

He's confusing two separate developments. The ASRAAM is scheduled to be mfgd in India with full ToT for our indigenous requirements & exports. Parallelly the DRDO is developing a fairly advanced CCM.

Why are we license producing a foreign missile to be our standard CCM missile (instead of using it as a stop gap measure) if we are going to have an indigenous option in a few years, doesn't make any sense.

 

[DumbPilot]

Then why are we planning to make ASRAAM as our standard CCM.

Because the ASRAAM is also good..?

If your sole concern is export, then NG CCM shouldn't have any difficulties. If your concern is capability, then NG CCM and ASRAAM combined also shouldn't be an issue. If your concern is quantity and production, then NG CCM will fit that role.

 

[standard snowball]

Because the ASRAAM is also good..?

If your sole concern is export, then NG CCM shouldn't have any difficulties. If your concern is capability, then NG CCM and ASRAAM combined also shouldn't be an issue. If your concern is quantity and production, then NG CCM will fit that role.

Going by your logic IAF should induct Gripen C as well as it is also a good jet.
If your concern is capability, then Tejas and Gripen combined shouldn't be an issue. If your concern is quantity and production, then Tejas will fit that role.

"Koi Sense hai is baat ka"

Shouldn't we be making NG CCM our standard CCM and use ASRAAM as a stop gap till NG CCM comes online instead of making ASRAAM our standard CCM missile

 

[DumbPilot]

Shouldn't we be making NG CCM our standard CCM and use ASRAAM as a stop gap till NG CCM comes online instead of making ASRAAM our standard CCM missile

Why can't it be two missiles that are in active service lol?

NG CCM will probably have a far greater quantity than the ASRAAM in active stores once it has gone through all the necessary testing and production, so I don't get why/what you are confused about.

We have already purchased ASRAAM, so we are obliged to use it anyway. So in that sense, yes, it does act like a "stop-gap" until NG CCM is active, however I think the right word is complimentary, because both missiles, once NG CCM is a reality, will only compliment the capability of IAF jets.

 

[standard snowball]

I am still not convinced that NG CCM is not just a rebranded ASRAAM as there is no info indicating otherwise.
1. We are planning to license produce ASRAAM here in India and make it our standard CCM (indicating that there would not be an indigenous CCM missile, because if there was an indigenous CCM in the works then we would not be making a foreign CCM our standard CCM)

2. The rumoured indigenous CCM is called NG CCM but according to MBDA's tweets ASRAAM would be produced in India under the name NG CCM indicating that NG CCM is just a license produced version of ASRAAM.
check at 0:50

3. At defence expo we saw a model of the rumoured indigenous NG CCM, it way to similar to ASRAAM to not be called a carbon copy of ASRAAM.

4. If an indigenous NG CCM project actually exists then why haven't we heard any rumours about its specifications or tests or anything at all, why is there a radio silence in the media about this project)

 

[standard snowball]

Why can't it be two missiles that are in active service lol?

Because Logistics

NG CCM will probably have a far greater quantity than the ASRAAM in active stores once it has gone through all the necessary testing and production, so I don't get why/what you are confused about.

I am confused because I am yet to see proof indicating that NG CCM is not a licence produced ASRAAM

We have already purchased ASRAAM, so we are obliged to use it anyway. So in that sense, yes, it does act like a "stop-gap" until NG CCM is active

What you are saying here would have been ture if we hadn't signed an agreement to licence produce ASRAAM

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

I have a question
Can we export NG CCM to Argentina as it's just a license version of British ASRAAM.
Cause if we can't why aren't we working on an indigenous WVR missile.

Don’t think we need to concerned on that part cos Argentina ain’t buying Tejas nor sponsoring development/testing of non British parts on them. They are already bankrupt multiple times. plus I think GE404 uses British parts as well.

Let’s do say Arg chooses Tejas. We can always get Russian missiles for quick integration into Tejas in that case. Astra IR is an short range missile also being developed. It’s an few years away.

 

[johnj]

Then why are we planning to make ASRAAM as our standard CCM.
Also the exterior difference between MG CCM and AsRAAM is way less than R 73 and Python 5

NG CCM

ASRAAM

R73

P5

LCA capable of firing R73, python5 and asraam
Customer can choose any of these currently

 

[johnj]

Deputy IAF Chief Assesses LCA Mk1A Facilities: How Tejas Highlights Atmanirbharta - source link
Deputy Chief of Air Staff Ashutosh Dixit, visited the TEJAS MK-1 Twin Seater and Mk IA production facilities today in Bengaluru on September 9. The DCAS also interacted with TEJAS and Aircraft Division officers, as well as floor-level technicians, said Hindustan aeronautics Limited officials. HAL further added, “Atmanirbharta in defence is reflected with the strong push the TEJAS MK-1A has received.”
The Indian Air Force (IAF) is set to acquire approximately 100 TEJAS MK-1A fighter jets for over eight billion dollars, replacing the aging MiG-21 squadrons currently in service. According to HAL and the Ministry of Defence, ‘TEJAS will see an increased deployment along the frontline airbase’ soon after the induction of the MK-1A variant in early 2024.
According to officials, “the IAF has decided to purchase 100 more of these highly capable MK-1A fighter jets from HAL.” Over the next 15 years, the IAF plans to operate 40 TEJAS MK-1, over 180 TEJAS MK-1A, and at least 120 TEJAS MK-2 aircraft. That alone is a cumulative figure of 340 fighter jets. This would make TEJAS the second-largest fleet ever operated in IAF, second only to the Bisons. The MK-1A, as per MoD, has enhanced avionics and radar, with over 65% indigenous components. Contracts for 83 MK-1A aircraft were secured in 2021, and deliveries are set to commence by February 2024.
Also, during a comprehensive review, Air Chief VR Chaudhari praised the TEJAS as a ‘flag bearer’ of indigenization, emphasizing collaborative efforts. All current fighter variants have been delivered, and HAL assures timely delivery of contracted twin-seater MK-1 aircraft. The successful launch of the ASTRA indigenous Beyond Visual Range missile was a significant achievement, reducing dependency on imports, according to Defence Minister Rajnath Singh.
The Deputy Chief also took a sortie in the HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft. As per the Ministry of Defence, procurement is set to begin in 2025 to address trainer aircraft shortages. The purchases would be made at a cost of Rs 6828 crore. The aircraft currently has over 56% indigenous content, and it is projected that this percentage can be increased to 60% after mass production begins. This initiative not only addresses defence needs but also has the potential to boost the Indian aviation industry and create employment opportunities.

 

[Azaad]

Then why are we planning to make ASRAAM as our standard CCM.
Also the exterior difference between MG CCM and AsRAAM is way less than R 73 and Python 5



Why are we license producing a foreign missile to be our standard CCM missile (instead of using it as a stop gap measure) if we are going to have an indigenous option in a few years, doesn't make any sense.

Good question . A few quick points. Look at the sheer number of missiles being tested for certification aboard the Tejas of both Indian & foreign makes . This is also true of the other FAs in IAFs inventory but especially true of the Tejas.

The objective is two fold - to offer the prospective client of the Tejas multiple options but more importantly the real reason we've two missiles of similar type ( usually 1 of indigenous design & make & 1 of a foreign design & make , but not always so ) in a particular class / category of missiles certified for use is in view of our upcoming war against China .

It's just not possible for us to match China's industrial prowess in a short time apart from other constraints. The objective behind selecting 2 such types is to avoid certification of it during a conflict ( witness how we were forced to cough up extra during the Kargil war to mate Israeli LGBs to French origin Mirage 2000) thereby enhancing our options & supply base.

In this specific case of CCM we've no indigenous alternative with the DRDO make CCM taking upto 5-7 years to get into mass production .

 

[standard snowball]

Good question . A few quick points. Look at the sheer number of missiles being tested for certification aboard the Tejas of both Indian & foreign makes . This is also true of the other FAs in IAFs inventory but especially true of the Tejas.

The objective is two fold - to offer the prospective client of the Tejas multiple options but more importantly the real reason we've two missiles of similar type ( usually 1 of indigenous design & make & 1 of a foreign design & make , but not always so ) in a particular class / category of missiles certified for use is in view of our upcoming war against China .

It's just not possible for us to match China's industrial prowess in a short time apart from other constraints. The objective behind selecting 2 such types is to avoid certification of it during a conflict ( witness how we were forced to cough up extra during the Kargil war to mate Israeli LGBs to French origin Mirage 2000) thereby enhancing our options & supply base.

In this specific case of CCM we've no indigenous alternative with the DRDO make CCM taking upto 5-7 years to get into mass production .

Thanks for the reply, but if what you are saying is the case then shouldn't we be integrating American weapons too (read AMRAAMs) because in case of a war with China they are going to be our biggest ally and are the only military power to have the MIC to supply us with enough weapons during a war.

Also I couldn't find any source saying that DRDO is working on MG CCM, there is some news about ASTRA IR but not NG CCM, and the NGCCM showed in defence Expo looks like a licensed version of ASRAAM

 

[Azaad]

Thanks for the reply, but if what you are saying is the case then shouldn't we be integrating American weapons too (read AMRAAMs) because in case of a war with China they are going to be our biggest ally and are the only military power to have the MIC to supply us with enough weapons during a war.

Also I couldn't find any source saying that DRDO is working on MG CCM, there is some news about ASTRA IR but not NG CCM, and the NGCCM showed in defence Expo looks like a licensed version of ASRAAM

Which is why the ASRAAMs were selected & is being mfgd in a JV with BDL . Depends on what's the IAF requirements. One could extend your argument into asking why isn't the IAF choosing offensive US platforms like the various iterations of the F-15 , F-16 , F-18 or even the F-35 ?

Frankly I'm of the opinion given our troublesome past with the US , they would be the vendor of the last resort. We'd go to them only if they had cutting edge state of the art stuff not if there were good alternatives available.

Not the best of sources but anyway here you go

India’s Next-Generation Close Combat Missile (NGCCM) Development Takes New Approach – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

 

[Roland55]

I have a question
Can we export NG CCM to Argentina as it's just a license version of British ASRAAM.
Cause if we can't why aren't we working on an indigenous WVR missile.

There is a lot of "things" here that we really don't know, if in the development of NG-CCM certain british companies/laboratories participated/contributed, there might be certain closures regarding export towards certain countries (things regarding technology transfer). If not...it could be exported really easily. It all depends on what companies contributed to the program and what closures they impose on the technology used..

 

[karn]

There is a lot of "things" here that we really don't know, if in the development of NG-CCM certain british companies/laboratories participated/contributed, there might be certain closures regarding export towards certain countries (things regarding technology transfer). If not...it could be exported really easily. It all depends on what companies contributed to the program and what closures they impose on the technology used..

Hardly matters in context of Argentina . We can always sell combination of python and astra .
I don't want to get into an offtopic discussion but what is Argentinas plan to get out of her debt burden ? Are defence plans serious? Since there is no credible threat right now.

 

[Roland55]

Hardly matters in context of Argentina . We can always sell combination of python and astra .
I don't want to get into an offtopic discussion but what is Argentinas plan to get out of her debt burden ? Are defence plans serious? Since there is no credible threat right now.

Im absolutely sure the "weapon's package" of the Tejas (independently of buying nation) can be sorted with no issues.

I dont wanna go on with were the deal is going (nether make a big Off topic), but all roads go to the F-16 for what im hearing/seeing. If they dont purchase it in the upcoming months...its gonna be a huuge lost opportunity (given the pricing on those 38 units). On the other hand, as i said multiple times, there is interest in building better relations with india defence-wise, it might not be tejas, but it could be other system (helicopters?).