LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[Defcon 1]

Cut him some slack here... Python-5 was not compatible out too. They made both work.

But Manmohan didn't order more, his time saw moe induction. The Su-30s were already scheduled to come. Only thing happened then was a badly negotiated deal to upgrade the Mirages for more than their original price.

Bhai sahab has a habit of making ludicrous claims out of his a$$ and blaming armed forces. I have limited patience only for guys like him.

Manmohan ordered more. 40 LCA + 82 MKI =122. Modiji ordered 36 Rafale + 83LCA=119

Of course both of these are way short of what was needed. To maintain squadron strength, we should have ordered at least 200 in each of their terms. This is the primary cause of falling squadron strength.

Mirage deal looks bad but you compare it with Mirage upgrade deals for other countries (I think Greece is a good example), you will find that we got a good price.

 

[Bleh]

Ok yes, I'd forgotten. There was a follow-on Sukhoi-30 order. About time the newest batch of them get Super Sukhoied. Modi does too much hawabazi I know, this is getting unacceptable.

We must not forget that this follow up order for MK1A is the simplest aircraft order in over a decade.

We don't need any trials, any improvements, multiple vendors, distribution of works, offsets, etc.

Only two things need to decided, price and delivery schedule. This is similar to follow on orders of MKI done by manmohan singh government. They were ordered so quickly.

Its a crime to not wrap this up quickly.

May not be as simple as it looks.

The realisation that India cannot afford to have 126 Rafales took time. The IAF was quite adamant about atleast 108 of them in MMRCA2. Now MRFA is just likely to be two more batches of 36, that too one for Navy. These take time & Tejas order came with as shifting of future plans happened since 2020. Not exactly another "let's get some more MKIs situation".

 

[Defcon 1]

"history of acquiring su 30 mki goes back several decades. It was in November 1996 when India placed its first order for 50 Su-30MKIs from Sukhoi for $1.46 billion. By December 2000, it was approved for licensed production of more than 140 aircraft"
so around 50+140= 190 su 30 mki aircraft ordered untill 2000....i dont hv data about rest of aircrafts order(272-190= 82 fighter). so i just making guess it ordered in Manmohan period. now:-
manmohan :- 82 su 30 mki order in 10 years.
modi :- 1- 40 tejas mark 1.
2- 83 tejas mark 1a.
3- 36 rafale
so total new order in 10 years = 40+83+36
= 159 new fighter.
point to be noted, i dont know when rest 82 su 30 mki ordered. so i just assume its in manmohan period. so modi inducted more aircraft (159-82 = 77 fighters). so u r wrong bro.

40 tejas mk1 were ordered by manmohan Singh government, not Modi government bro

 

[Chinmoy]

Don't understand the happiness over this news of 100 more LCA MK1A. This deal is unlikely to be inked before elections. And this deal will be replacing MMRCA 2. Overall procurement rate still remains the same ,which is very slow. Less than 120 fighters ordered in 10 years of Modi government, even worse than Manmohan singh government

Before election?

I don't see this order getting green flagged anytime before 2025-26. Why? Because for that we have to first sign a new deal for engine. Now if it happens anytime sooner then this, I would be pleasantly suprised.

As far as Modi vs MM Singh goes, yeah, it takes time to order when you have to fist oil up your non existent infra and then push your forces to order those stuff. Much hard then signing an overseas deal like Rafale, S-400, K9, AK203, Spike et.al.

 

[Defcon 1]

Before election?

I don't see this order getting green flagged anytime before 2025-26. Why? Because for that we have to first sign a new deal for engine. Now if it happens anytime sooner then this, I would be pleasantly suprised.

As far as Modi vs MM Singh goes, yeah, it takes time to order when you have to fist oil up your non existent infra and then push your forces to order those stuff. Much hard then signing an overseas deal like Rafale, S-400, K9, AK203, Spike et.al.

Everyone has stuck to Modi vs manmohan. My central point was we haven't ordered enough aircraft in last 20 years. We will keep paying the price of the same for next 20 years.

And yes, agreed with your timelines for the additional mk1a order. This is criminally slow

 

[Tejbrahmastra]

MK1A deal would be a shot in the arm for IAF to replace Mig 21 with advanced 4.5 Gen fighter jets. While the brute aerodynamic characteristics of Tejas are not that good, but in terms of electronics it is far ahead of anything we have with the IAF barring Rafale, even Su30MKI in some aspect( doesn't have AESA). So, MK1A is not just perforce substitute, but it would be our 3rd best jet behind Rafale and MKI. It would be capable of handling most of the PAF forces barring J10C.

 

[Azaad]

MK1A deal would be a shot in the arm for IAF to replace Mig 21 with advanced 4.5 Gen fighter jets. While the brute aerodynamic characteristics of Tejas are not that good, but in terms of electronics it is far ahead of anything we have with the IAF barring Rafale, even Su30MKI in some aspect( doesn't have AESA). So, MK1A is not just perforce substitute, but it would be our 3rd best jet behind Rafale and MKI. It would be capable of handling most of the PAF forces barring J10C.

View attachment 219695
View attachment 219696

You come up with a Tejas Growler ( I believe there were precisely such plans which may be in abeyance for the tech is being tested) & the highlighted part of your post soon becomes redundant.

Alternatively you open your campaign with half a dozen Rafales for SEAD / DEAD & to tackle the J-10C + F-16 combo , accompanied either by the Tejas or Super Sukhoi MKI.

Note : by Tejas I'm referring exclusively to the Mk-1a configuration.

 

[Azaad]

my question is 40+83+50= 173 tejas mark 1 nd 1a order make sense untill 2030-31....but more 100 tejas mark 1a order make no sense. coz around 2028-30 our tejas mark 2 will be ready for induction. government should order 170-200 tejas mark 2 after/before 2030, instead of additional 100 tejas mark 1a. HAL will deliver 83 tejas mark 1a till 2028. additional 50 tejas mark 1a will take 2 years (2030). if we order 100 more tejas mark 1a, that delivery timeline goes 4 more years (untill 2034). when tejas mark 2 will be ready for induction untill 2028-30. why we will waiting for 2034 to give order of tejas mark 2??

Additional Mk-1a are being ordered keeping the on going situation with China in mind , in addition to the 2 front scenario. Otherwise 100 additional nos don't make any sense ( 50 nos do ) since it'd eat into the Mk-2 quantities besides upsetting the budget for the MRFA possibly affecting those quantities as well.

 

[Tejbrahmastra]

Why Building More Tejas Fighters Is A Superior Option For The Indian Air Force | Delhi Defence Review

delhidefencereview.com

Nevertheless, till such time India begins inducting 5th generation fighters, we believe the desired 42 squadrons could well consist of 20-22 ‘light’, 5-7 ‘medium’ and 15 Su-30 MKI type ‘heavy’ squadrons.

At a thrust specific fuel consumption rate of 84 kg/KNhr at maximum dry thrust, the GE-404 engine would consume nearly 4600 kg of fuel per hour. Thus, at max internal and external fuel (approximately 5100 kg), the Tejas MK1’s combat radius is estimated to be over 275 km for a lo-lo-lo strike mission.

For high altitude missions such as fighter sweeps/air superiority combat air patrols and high altitude PGM delivery strike missions, the Tejas Mk-1 is estimated to have a greater than 500 km combat radius owing to the flight profile under consideration

 

[vin bharat mahan]

Why Building More Tejas Fighters Is A Superior Option For The Indian Air Force | Delhi Defence Review

delhidefencereview.com

Nevertheless, till such time India begins inducting 5th generation fighters, we believe the desired 42 squadrons could well consist of 20-22 ‘light’, 5-7 ‘medium’ and 15 Su-30 MKI type ‘heavy’ squadrons.

View attachment 219702

At a thrust specific fuel consumption rate of 84 kg/KNhr at maximum dry thrust, the GE-404 engine would consume nearly 4600 kg of fuel per hour. Thus, at max internal and external fuel (approximately 5100 kg), the Tejas MK1’s combat radius is estimated to be over 275 km for a lo-lo-lo strike mission.

For high altitude missions such as fighter sweeps/air superiority combat air patrols and high altitude PGM delivery strike missions, the Tejas Mk-1 is estimated to have a greater than 500 km combat radius owing to the flight profile under consideration

View attachment 219703

my question is 40+83+50= 173 tejas mark 1 nd 1a order make sense untill 2030-31....but more 100 tejas mark 1a order make no sense. coz around 2028-30 our tejas mark 2 will be ready for induction. government should order 170-200 tejas mark 2 after/before 2030, instead of additional 100 tejas mark 1a. HAL will deliver 83 tejas mark 1a till 2028. additional 50 tejas mark 1a will take 2 years (2030). if we order 100 more tejas mark 1a, that delivery timeline goes 4 more years (untill 2034). when tejas mark 2 will be ready for induction untill 2028-30. why we will waiting for 2034 to give order of tejas mark 2??

 

[vin bharat mahan]

Additional Mk-1a are being ordered keeping the on going situation with China in mind , in addition to the 2 front scenario. Otherwise 100 additional nos don't make any sense ( 50 nos do ) since it'd eat into the Mk-2 quantities besides upsetting the budget for the MRFA possibly affecting those quantities as well.

yeah i understand china angle. but again when tejas mark 2 will be available from 2028-30, its better to order tejas mark 2, than 100 tejas mark 1a after 2030. tejas mark 2 is good against chinese j series fighters, but against j20 nd upcoming j31 they can only survive if they hv quantity. tejas mark 1a is good fighter against pakistani aircraft. so 173 tejas mark 1a number make sense. but for chinese j10, j11, j16 etc we need good amount of tejas mark 2. 170-200 tejas mark2 is good number. it will be little costlier than tejas mark 1A, but its totally worth if we see capabilities increases in tejas mark 2.

 

[Tejbrahmastra]

my question is 40+83+50= 173 tejas mark 1 nd 1a order make sense untill 2030-31....but more 100 tejas mark 1a order make no sense. coz around 2028-30 our tejas mark 2 will be ready for induction. government should order 170-200 tejas mark 2 after/before 2030, instead of additional 100 tejas mark 1a. HAL will deliver 83 tejas mark 1a till 2028. additional 50 tejas mark 1a will take 2 years (2030). if we order 100 more tejas mark 1a, that delivery timeline goes 4 more years (untill 2034). when tejas mark 2 will be ready for induction untill 2028-30. why we will waiting for 2034 to give order of tejas mark 2??

We don't even have the prototype of MK2 yet and as much as HAL/ADA claim that they can complete the entire new aircraft in 5-6 years, its not possible realistically. MK2 would be a new aircraft and making prototype, flying and weapons integration may well take 6-8 years. Lets not forgot that the as per HAL they can make prototype 3 years after CCS approval. Taking that into consideration, we should have the first prototype by Sep -2025, but since we are using "internal funds", we may have the first prototype by next year. Even then flight testing, weapons integration may well take over 6-8 years. Remember it took 9 years from Tejas FOC to Astra firing. Even if we can compress the timelines, I don't see MK2 into production before 2030.
While the full production capability is 24, and can be increased to 32 if necessary, so by 2030 we will have produced around 150 MK1a and all MK1A by 2031/32. We are not even taking the delays that may come into the MK2, so the 183 MK1A much more sense. Don't forget, A Bird in the Hand is Worth Two in the Bush !!

 

[Azaad]

yeah i understand china angle. but again when tejas mark 2 will be available from 2028-30, its better to order tejas mark 2, than 100 tejas mark 1a after 2030. tejas mark 2 is good against chinese j series fighters, but against j20 nd upcoming j31 they can only survive if they hv quantity. tejas mark 1a is good fighter against pakistani aircraft. so 173 tejas mark 1a number make sense. but for chinese j10, j11, j16 etc we need good amount of tejas mark 2. 170-200 tejas mark2 is good number. it will be little costlier than tejas mark 1A, but its totally worth if we see capabilities increases in tejas mark 2.

HAL has set up 3.5 lines. They claim they can mfg anywhere between 36-40 Mk-1a per annum. The excess capacity could well be to cater to exports or in anticipation of further orders for the IAF in a time bound manner . In any case I don't think even with additional nos being ordered ( be they 50 or 100 ) the T/L for mfg Mk-1a would exceed 2030.

Full scale production of the Mk-2 isn't expected to commence before 2032 at the earliest. Could well be delayed by a year or 2.

 

[Tejbrahmastra]

HAL has set up 3.5 lines. They claim they can mfg anywhere between 36-40 Mk-1a per annum. The excess capacity could well be to cater to exports or in anticipation of further orders for the IAF in a time bound manner . In any case I don't think even with additional nos being ordered ( be they 50 or 100 ) the T/L for mfg Mk-1a would exceed 2030.

Full scale production of the Mk-2 isn't expected to commence before 2032 at the earliest. Could be delayed by a year or 2.

Exactly, we don't even have the prototype yet, so to think than we will have fully fledged MK2 by 2028 is laughable. And even if we have the decent capability MK2 by 28, IAF won't induct it considering they usually want a fully integrated platforms, and not a big fan of staggered block improvement programs!!

 

[vin bharat mahan]

Why Building More Tejas Fighters Is A Superior Option For The Indian Air Force | Delhi Defence Review

delhidefencereview.com

Nevertheless, till such time India begins inducting 5th generation fighters, we believe the desired 42 squadrons could well consist of 20-22 ‘light’, 5-7 ‘medium’ and 15 Su-30 MKI type ‘heavy’ squadrons.

View attachment 219702

At a thrust specific fuel consumption rate of 84 kg/KNhr at maximum dry thrust, the GE-404 engine would consume nearly 4600 kg of fuel per hour. Thus, at max internal and external fuel (approximately 5100 kg), the Tejas MK1’s combat radius is estimated to be over 275 km for a lo-lo-lo strike mission.

For high altitude missions such as fighter sweeps/air superiority combat air patrols and high altitude PGM delivery strike missions, the Tejas Mk-1 is estimated to have a greater than 500 km combat radius owing to the flight profile under consideration

View attachment 219703

Why Building More Tejas Fighters Is A Superior Option For The Indian Air Force | Delhi Defence Review

delhidefencereview.com

Nevertheless, till such time India begins inducting 5th generation fighters, we believe the desired 42 squadrons could well consist of 20-22 ‘light’, 5-7 ‘medium’ and 15 Su-30 MKI type ‘heavy’ squadrons.

View attachment 219702

At a thrust specific fuel consumption rate of 84 kg/KNhr at maximum dry thrust, the GE-404 engine would consume nearly 4600 kg of fuel per hour. Thus, at max internal and external fuel (approximately 5100 kg), the Tejas MK1’s combat radius is estimated to be over 275 km for a lo-lo-lo strike mission.

For high altitude missions such as fighter sweeps/air superiority combat air patrols and high altitude PGM delivery strike missions, the Tejas Mk-1 is estimated to have a greater than 500 km combat radius owing to the flight profile under consideration

View attachment 219703

in ur map, u only shows 1 airbase in Bareilly (uttarpradesh) for tejas mark 1a, which dont cover whole air space in uttarakhand. tejas is good for CAP missions. so uttarakhand should hv also one tejas mark 1a base...u cant leave us on god mercy. or its a "chakravyuh" where u left one portion, so enemy enter from in it. if that true, than make it entry point from arunanchal pradesh, no need to risk "my lovely" uttarakhand.

 

[Azaad]

Exactly, we don't even have the prototype yet, so to think than we will have fully fledged MK2 by 2028 is laughable. And even if we have the decent capability MK2 by 28, IAF won't induct it considering they usually want a fully integrated platforms, and not a big fan of staggered block improvement programs!!

Not entirely correct. From what I understand IAF would be following the concept of concurrent engineering with respect to the Mk-2 induction. Which means LSP conditional to partial certification with full production commencing only upon FOC.

The process should be sped up considering 4 planned prototypes would be deployed for testing & certification of the platform to begin with , flight parameters , avionics , sensors , weapons, etc. In addition to that the learnings for testing & certification of the Mk-1 / Mk-1a should come in handy.

 

[Chinmoy]

Everyone has stuck to Modi vs manmohan. My central point was we haven't ordered enough aircraft in last 20 years. We will keep paying the price of the same for next 20 years.

The only reason for that is, you have compared two totally different approach. If you have said that we have ordered too few aircrafts in last 20 years, it would have been ok.

And yes, agreed with your timelines for the additional mk1a order. This is criminally slow

We can't blame anyone for that except our approach. If we would have inducted the first batch of 40 aircrafts in 2007-10 instead of ordering them, we might have seen a spurge in its order by now.

 

[Defcon 1]

The only reason for that is, you have compared two totally different approach. If you have said that we have ordered too few aircrafts in last 20 years, it would have been ok.



We can't blame anyone for that except our approach. If we would have inducted the first batch of 40 aircrafts in 2007-10 instead of ordering them, we might have seen a spurge in its order by now.

The approach is still the same. Nothing has changed there. So the comparison is valid. MK2 will not be inducted before 2030. Parrikar's contribution was MK1A. That itself is a big contribution, but other than that, the entire approach is still the same.

Remember the entire RFP process for MK1A? HAL didn't submit some responses to RFP properly, and the order was delayed by 2+ years. MRFA looks like a mirror image of MMRCA 1

 

[Tejbrahmastra]

Not entirely correct. From what I understand IAF would be following the concept of concurrent engineering with respect to the Mk-2 induction. Which means LSP conditional to partial certification with full production commencing only upon FOC.

The process should be sped up considering 4 planned prototypes would be deployed for testing & certification of the platform to begin with , flight parameters , avionics , sensors , weapons, etc. In addition to that the learnings for testing & certification of the Mk-1 / Mk-1a should come in handy.

Taking all that account, I don't see MK2 getting into production before 2032!!

 

[Chinmoy]

The approach is still the same. Nothing has changed there. So the comparison is valid. MK2 will not be inducted before 2030. Parrikar's contribution was MK1A. That itself is a big contribution, but other than that, the entire approach is still the same.

Remember the entire RFP process for MK1A? HAL didn't submit some responses to RFP properly, and the order was delayed by 2+ years

Sorry to differ here.

If the impetus of current establishment would not have been on Tejas, by now we would have seen atleast the tests of various foreign OEM for MRFA. But dilly delaying it and investing on Tejas is a complete different approach.
The loss which we have suffered because of this is something to debate about. Many members here would be suffering mental breakdown and verbal diarrhea if any proposal for MRFA would have happened. So I am not going to discuss it here.

Now going with the RFP part, we believe it just to be some documents and papers which are to be submitted. But in reality its not. For example you have to submit the certification along with production capacity of various LRUs in it. Now we are using American engine, Israeli Radar, British ejection seats and Radome. It means we are dependent on them for their documentation and assurance on delivery to provide the full RFP documentation.
For example we are saying that in Mk1A from 21st unit onwards we would be using Uttam Radar. But to support that we have to submit technical docs along with tests result and above all the manufacturing partner details. For the last part, HAL is completely dependent on the party who would be manufacturing the radar on documentation part.