LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[Pazhassiraja]

Recently got this on WhatsApp.

View attachment 38803

But I've serious doubt when I do compare KJL-7A and Uttam.

Is track range or max range more significant? Also is there a way to normalize the size of all the targets and then specify the track range for uniform comparison?

 

[Steven Rogers]

Recently got this on WhatsApp.

View attachment 38803

But I've serious doubt when I do compare KJL-7A and Uttam.

Whoever made this correctly has no idea of the radars....

 

[Steven Rogers]

That's why I gave the examples to you. Mig29 UPG vs Mig29 SMT. UPG had some India procured/supplied components replacing some of the Russian origin components.
Since 2011 there was talks of different ASEA radars for Mig29. A couple of European origin and obviously Zhuk-AME. Zhuk-AME was delayed and currently as news indicates it will be fitted on Mig-35.

While retrofitting AESA radar into an old platform many things have to be considered including like the weight, the cooling required, the power requirement and other factors like wiring and cabling.
Aslo, the parameters you have mentioned are vital. But not surmountable?
Isn't the feature of UTTAM AESA being Scalable will come in handy here?

Yes, I very well know that Mig29 UPG has PESA MMR. If it were to be ASEA, why would I have bothered to recommend to retrofit UTTAM?

MIRAGE example is not suitable because, with mirage IAF wanted to play safe. With the vitality the MIRAGE enjoys in IAF scheme of things, it's was not advisable for any non OEM component in upgrade package. IAF din't have any issues with the upgrade.

Isn't the very fact that some of the Mig29s will be retired in a decade a boon in itself? Retrofitting AESA in them will be a low risk affair. If successful very good, if not current PESA radar is good enough to see it fly into the sunset.
Also, newer Mig-29s (including the yet to be acquired ones) will serve for a lot longer time.
With this project the outcome of the possibility of retrofitting UTTAM AESA into Mig-29 K/KuB will be more or less clear. (Although they are made to different standard M/M2). Those Ks are going to serve for a lot longer.

I don't 'want' to 'put' anything anywhere. Rather, I am exploring integration of a particular thing into a particular aircraft. Then the riders becomes 'specific' riders, hence the term 'negotiate' has been mentioned earlier.

Contd........

Scalability doesnt mean a radar is designed to fit on any aircraft,the frontal area of nose cone if mig29 is diff than lca and would require a new antenna to maximize the relative trm on the front end(which needs new trm design for the new shape),the back end design is made to fit on lca which need redesign to fit on any other aircraft than LCA.....In bw Prasun Sengupta claimed which is utterly stupid as he is,that idiot is claiming that no testing of the radar modes are going on since jammers are missing

 

[ladder]

Scalability doesnt mean a radar is designed to fit on any aircraft,the frontal area of nose cone if mig29 is diff than lca and would require a new antenna to maximize the relative trm on the front end(which needs new trm design for the new shape),the back end design is made to fit on lca which need redesign to fit on any other aircraft than LCA.....In bw Prasun Sengupta claimed which is utterly stupid as he is,that idiot is claiming that no testing of the radar modes are going on since jammers are missing

Leave Prasun and his claims.

Is Kfir, Jag IM and Tejas have same radome dia? Or frontal cross section?
I am asking because all of them have or will have EL/M 2052 family of AESA MMR.

I have never claimed that UTTAM will be drop fitted into Mig 29. Have I?

 

[Shashwat]

^^ No you never said that but for plug and play or integration to happen the radar must atleast pass some validation on its modes atleast on 1 platform and that hasn't happen yet for Uttam.

Now you will say the same thing again. But for any development to happen you limit the variables and validate those if you keep addiing many variables you won't achieve your moot point and invariably delay the testing process.

The AESA radars are made up of TRMs and they are increased and decreased based on power and nose size but the underlying architecture remains the same and must be matured before you bring variations to the radar.

2052 is a already mature platform it can be used with any a/c since all its foundations are laid up.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Leave Prasun and his claims.

Is Kfir, Jag IM and Tejas have same radome dia? Or frontal cross section?
I am asking because all of them have or will have EL/M 2052 family of AESA MMR.

I have never claimed that UTTAM will be drop fitted into Mig 29. Have I?

Nope and i dont think so since the aircrafts are designed by diff OEMs.Elm2052 has 3re variants to fit on the various aircrafts. Kfir or tejas probabaly has the variant with trm more than Jaguar one but lesser than the biggest of the varaint....Uttam radar is designed keeping the shape of tejas radome for fitting so how ever the tejas grows into mwf or into another varaint,the radar will be scalable for the fittment on the new varaint ,but on the aircraft which developers dont even the dimensions limit as in mig29 a lot of work is required.

 

[Steven Rogers]

^^ No you never said that but for plug and play or integration to happen the radar must atleast pass some validation on its modes atleast on 1 platform and that hasn't happen yet for Uttam.

Now you will say the same thing again. But for any development to happen you limit the variables and validate those if you keep addiing many variables you won't achieve your moot point and invariably delay the testing process.

The AESA radars are made up of TRMs and they are increased and decreased based on power and nose size but the underlying architecture remains the same and must be matured before you bring variations to the radar.

2052 is a already mature platform it can be used with any a/c since all its foundations are laid up.

and also the type of the trmms,since as per my knowledge from AI2017 the trmms (which lrde has patented)provided max density when fitted on the uttam front end type shape and not on circular or anyother shape....

 

[ladder]

Nope and i dont think so since the aircrafts are designed by diff OEMs.Elm2052 has 3re variants to fit on the various aircrafts. Kfir or tejas probabaly has the variant with trm more than Jaguar one but lesser than the biggest of the varaint....Uttam radar is designed keeping the shape of tejas radome for fitting so how ever the tejas grows into mwf or into another varaint,the radar will be scalable for the fittment on the new varaint ,but on the aircraft which developers dont even the dimensions limit as in mig29 a lot of work is required.

How did EL/M 2032 find its way into Mig 21 Lancer of Romania? Did the Israeli disigners had designed the radar for Mig 21 from the starting?

Don't miss the woods for the trees.
And why is current Tejas's MK-1 Ioc MMR has its back-end Indian?

 

[Steven Rogers]

How did EL/M 2032 find its way into Mig 21 Lancer of Romania? Did the Israeli disigners had designed the radar for Mig 21 from the starting?

Don't miss the woods for the trees.
And why is current Tejas's MK-1 Ioc MMR has its back-end Indian?

What i know is Tejas Mk1 IOC front end antenna is purely indian,probably it had enough space to fit the back end of elm2032 on the mig21. They retrofitted the radar on mig21 is what we call juggad in india, purposidely adjusted the dimensions of the base variant to fit on another aircraft(though wont be very big task for a vintage mmr were only back end miniaturisation is a challenge),thus be assured such modification to scale down also comes at a cost of performance of the radar compared to the base varaint.....

 

[Steven Rogers]

you cant fit this on a circular radome and expect the performance as equivalent to the one with the aircraft which was kept in mind to design this radar......

 

[ladder]

What i know is Tejas Mk1 IOC front end antenna is purely indian,probably it had enough space to fit the back end of elm2032 on the mig21. They retrofitted the radar on mig21 is what we call juggad in india, purposidely adjusted the dimensions of the base variant to fit on another aircraft(though wont be very big task for a vintage mmr were only back end miniaturisation is a challenge),thus be assured such modification to scale down also comes at a cost of performance of the radar compared to the base varaint.....

Was Romanian Mig 21's performance was better or worse with the retrofitting of EL/M 2032 when compared to older Soviet radar it had. That should give your answer.

 

[ladder]

you cant fit this on a circular radome and expect the performance as equivalent to the one with the aircraft which was kept in mind to design this radar......View attachment 38820

Performance if better than current status of the intended aircraft? Also performance enhancement of the product itself?

Do you know when APG 83 radar was designed most of the software modules we're similar to APG 81 developed for F35. Just saying.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Performance if better than current status of the intended aircraft? Also performance enhancement of the product itself?

Do you know when APG 83 radar was designed most of the software modules we're similar to APG 81 developed for F35. Just saying.

"software module"......By the way do check the very same two radars and also the hardware......SABR has a complete diff hardware design back end and front end and is specifically designed to fit into the f16 without "any structural modification" ,the only thing it shares with the Apg81 is the TRMs.......Try fitting the APG81 into the F16 and you will get your answer by the way do listen to the scientists and their seminars about how they do the work on the given project,that will solve most of the problem related to the queries and would suddenly end the thoughts of adding any radar into any airframe without keeping specific airframe into the mind..........

 

[Steven Rogers]

Was Romanian Mig 21's performance was better or worse with the retrofitting of EL/M 2032 when compared to older Soviet radar it had. That should give your answer.

Worse when compared to the ELM2032 fitted on israeli/Indian aircraft(its no trick but simple IQ,small antenna low power output,several modes removed in order to compensate for cooling and many other limitations).....By the way does its performance was better compared to what IAF has on Mig21 Bison(last i know the bison detected an f16 40miles away and later shot it down when approached as close as 20 miles with an r73)....will be enough to get the answer.....

 

[vampyrbladez]

Recently got this on WhatsApp.

View attachment 38803

But I've serious doubt when I do compare KJL-7A and Uttam.

The RBE-2 AA has ~200 km for 3 msq target. This is because range increased by 50 - 80% in the AESA version.

https://www.defenseworld.net/feature/8/AESA_Radars_Become_Mainstream_In_Fighter_Aircraft

http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=6094&p=375488

 

[Steven Rogers]

Performance if better than current status of the intended aircraft? Also performance enhancement of the product itself?
.

do you know the base varaint of elm2052 was designed to fit on something like this...

But getting fitted on these .

No it dont require any brainer that the performance of a radar will be way better in the aircraft it was meant for rather than being fitted on others as a juggad in the name of scalable also the varaints avialable for other aircrafts are:-1500+trm,300+trm,and 500+trm,it again require no brainer to understand that smaller antenna of a radar cant match the base varaint which has again been bigger since it was designed to keep bigger aircraft in mind....

 

[ladder]

"software module"......By the way do check the very same two radars and also the hardware......SABR has a complete diff hardware design back end and front end and is specifically designed to fit into the f16 without "any structural modification" ,the only thing it shares with the Apg81 is the TRMs.......Try fitting the APG81 into the F16 and you will get your answer by the way do listen to the scientists and their seminars about how they do the work on the given project,that will solve most of the problem related to the queries and would suddenly end the thoughts of adding any radar into any airframe without keeping specific airframe into the mind..........

Oh you aren't author/ co-author of any those papers? Contributor may be?

I have a general question for you. What is a 'solution' and 'optimum solution'? What is 'trade-off'?

And what is 'juggad' called in English?
And why should I fit APG 81 into F16?

Correct, I must listen to them, those lectures. You must be a regular listener. But, your posting quality is taken into account, I am skeptical, whether it makes any difference?

However, the very thought of fitting any radar to any airframe gave birth to what you called 'no brainer' 'juggad' and 'any radar' ( EL/M 2052) was fitted into 'any aircraft' ( Kfir, Jag and probably Tejas).

So, probably there was another person who hadn't listened to 'those lectures'.

And at the end, there is nothing wrong with those lectures.

 

[WolfPack86]

LCA Tejas fighter aircraft.

 

[ladder]

Was Romanian Mig 21's performance was better or worse with the retrofitting of EL/M 2032 when compared to older Soviet radar it had. That should give your answer.

Worse when compared to the ELM2032 fitted on israeli/Indian aircraft(its no trick but simple IQ,small antenna low power output,several modes removed in order to compensate for cooling and many other limitations).....By the way does its performance was better compared to what IAF has on Mig21 Bison(last i know the bison detected an f16 40miles away and later shot it down when approached as close as 20 miles with an r73)....will be enough to get the answer.....

No, not even close.
I re-quoted my post for the sake of brevity.

 

[ladder]

do you know the base varaint of elm2052 was designed to fit on something like this...View attachment 38830 But getting fitted on these .View attachment 38831 View attachment 38832
No it dont require any brainer that the performance of a radar will be way better in the aircraft it was meant for rather than being fitted on others as a juggad in the name of scalable also the varaints avialable for other aircrafts are:-1500+trm,300+trm,and 500+trm,it again require no brainer to understand that smaller antenna of a radar cant match the base varaint which has again been bigger since it was designed to keep bigger aircraft in mind....

Yes, Argentinian, Romanian and heck even Indians were taken by the Israeli for a ride. A 'jugaard' was shoved down their throats. They should have listened to those lectures. People in IAF and HAL should concentrate on attending the lectures rather than arranging flower pots during Aero-India shows. Isn't it?