LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[SARTHAK]

I believe Tejas Mk1a was scheduled to fly around July- August 2022.

Who told about March 2022?

for ppl it is easy to criticize HAL , no one seem to look at AF which is not placing orders for lch yet,83mk1a deal sign was also delayed by a year

 

[THESIS THORON]

Who all think ki Amca mein bhi hagenge yeh log? They have started the timer themselves by posting that photo and big ass Twitter post- now every thing will be counted from that time itself - till the successful IOC atleast

bhai

kitna blackpilled hokar aya hai aaj ??

 

[Covfefe]

bhai

kitna blackpilled hokar aya hai aaj ??

No, seriously. Abhi kuch SPV bana nahi, production partner formalise hua nahi, funds release hue nahi bc bhopu Baja Diya. Abhi let the funds stay stuck for an year or so, aur phir log inki bajayenge aur bhai 1½ saal ho gaye kahan tak pahuncha kaam
Chup chaap fabrication kar sakte thay na background mein meanwhile

 

[THESIS THORON]

No, seriously. Abhi kuch SPV bana nahi, production partner formalise hua nahi, funds release hue nahi bc bhopu Baja Diya. Abhi let the funds stay stuck for an year or so, aur phir log inki bajayenge aur bhai 1½ saal ho gaye kahan tak pahuncha kaam
Chup chaap fabrication kar sakte thay na background mein meanwhile

iss saal hojayega ..... hope so

 

[Covfefe]

iss saal hojayega ..... hope so

Additional Rafales are our necessity- Mk2 or otherwise

 

[Flying Dagger]

Who all think ki Amca mein bhi hagenge yeh log? They have started the timer themselves by posting that photo and big ass Twitter post- now every thing will be counted from that time itself - till the successful IOC atleast

From my personal experience

When internship are provided based on relationship mla mp reference in such a premium aerospace organisation of India what else we can expect ?

Most of these engineers are looking out for opportunities in pvt sector specially offshore and leave once they have enough experience , those who are left are generally those who cannot make it big outside.

So end result is what we are getting.

 

[Flying Dagger]

Additional Rafales are our necessity- Mk2 or otherwise

Missed that bus too forget getting additional Rafale for next 3-4 years even if we order now.

 

[Flying Dagger]

for ppl it is easy to criticize HAL , no one seem to look at AF which is not placing orders for lch yet,83mk1a deal sign was also delayed by a year

Bhai af will place order don't worry about it let them complete what they have to deliver first.

 

[Roland55]

what was the original ejection seat of the TD-1/2 technology demonstrators?, since today they use the MB Mk.16...but in 2001 a different seat can be seen, any idea what version is?

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

what was the original ejection seat of the TD-1/2 technology demonstrators?, since today they use the MB Mk.16...but in 2001 a different seat can be seen, any idea what version is?

Could be ruskie one, as we had sanctions.

 

[Roland55]

Could be ruskie one, as we had sanctions.

kinda looks like a MB mk.8 to me, or something like it i guess?

 

[abingdonboy]

Any news on 2052 deliveries? Mk1A delayed due to that or some other reason?

Am I missing something? MK1A delayed based on what?

Until it’s March 2024 and MK1A has not been handed over to the IAF we cannot say delayed. Contract signed in March 2021, first delivery by March 2024- that is the terms as per every large deal even for foreign OEMs

HAL are unlikely to botch this given their huge cash infusion from this deal (hopefully they got money upfront from IAF this time) and large(ish) commitment MK1A is not such a huge change from what they are already churning out

Only in about 18 months from now will we be able to asses clearly the MK1A status, they have no excuses left anymore.

+I notice the IAF/IN (I rarely did) haven’t bashed HAL for a while now, I don’t think HAL does much that they aren’t asked to do

 

[abingdonboy]

The last IOC was delivered 3 years ago. 3 years later, how close is delivery of 16 FOC? There was capacity to assemble 8 per annum in 2019, subsequently increased to 16.

Things have gone all quiet. That is par for the course, I think, when schedules are about to be missed - which they nearly always are where this programme is concerned.

PS I am aware it was announced that the end-March 2022 schedule for delivery of 16 FOC would be missed due to COVID-19.

16/year is ONLY for MK1A, no one ever said that would happen for the 16+16+8 MK1 orders where 6-8/year is the target

 

[abingdonboy]

Thanks for the info. I saw that the target for completing deliveries shifted to end of 2022. I am a little mystified why 9 more months are needed to complete the last 8 FOC. Yes, the balance of Israeli components may be late but they have been in production for some time so how come a multi-month delay? Israel reached a high level of COVID-19 vaccination before any other country, so COVID-19 seems unlikely as the cause.

Supply chain issues exist across the world. Even today you will face a long waiting list for many major car manufacturers anywhere in the world

it’s a convenient excuse but it’s also the reality of the world- you can’t just switch off all production activity for the best part of a year and then restart overnight and expect no longer term knock on effects.

it’s not like they can deliver the birds without Israeli subsystems

 

[abingdonboy]

Waiting for people who have blind trust in HAL, and think they can deliver 83 Mk1A in time, start delivering Mk2 by 2026, and AMCA by 2030, even though all the previous records have displayed the poor professionalism of HAL.

And oh, not to mention it is all armed forces' fault because they did not instantly order 500+ LCA the moment it left the design boards.

If you’re going to go down this road at least have the facts on your side to start with

- MK.2 from 2028-9 at the earliest
-AMCA will be made by a SPV where HAL will be a 1/3 consortium member

the game you are playing (order low, criticise for low delivery then use this as an excuse to keep ordering low) is the same bait and switch game the Indian services use whilst they look to leverage production lines with 3+ years of backlogs and or 1000s of units commitment.

seriously for 16+16+8 orders what kind of production rate would be enough to satisfy these whiners? 6/yr? 20?40?

have some sense first, criticise them for failing to meet yet another deadline but to throw the baby out with the bath water by relegating them as irrelevant for projects that haven’t even flown yet is ridiculous

ALH has shown that with stable production lines and consistent orders HAL has no issues, to date they have had a mere 40 unit orders spread over THREE different specifications (IOC, FOC and trainer) where they’ve had to deal with changing requirements on a continual basis. We cannot judge their fixed wing production because we simply haven’t seen what they can do yet with stable orders, fixed specifications and long lead times

IF they screw up MK1A delivery then they absolutely should be broken up (rotary wing and fixed wing) and sold off to the highest bidder but I don’t think it will come to that and you can save this comment

 

[FactsPlease]

I keep hearing people defend HAL with there is NO big order (from IAF).

Allow me to put it this way: sounds like India national security should serve HAL (its investment efficiency, and thus its profit, its business continuity, prosperity, so on and so forth), NOT the other way around.

I understand there is a long-term national development strategy behind all this. I know it's NOT that easy for just a "black or white" situation. And I also agree there is so-called synergy issue between various entities (IAF, MoD, HAL), and their interests.

Nevertheless, there supposed to be some "tipping point", isn't it? When will be critical time that someone rise and yell to HAL: we simply don't have time to wait for a reasonable investment & production rate.

Before 2/24, so many wise people said NO way, Russia is NOT going to invade Ukraine. Likewise, many Ukraine arms manufacturers, counting on that, could be saying: "without certain order quantity, I'm NOT going to raise pace of my factory...". (I admit never been good to make good analogy).

Exactly when will be our tipping point?

it’s not like they can deliver the birds without Israeli subsystems

Fair enough. Then I hope that HAL learn something called contingency plan. Truly wish time will tells us they did...

 

[abingdonboy]

I keep hearing people defend HAL with there is NO big order (from IAF).

Allow me to put it this way: sounds like India national security should serve HAL (its investment efficiency, and thus its profit, its business continuity, prosperity, so on and so forth), NOT the other way around.

I understand there is a long-term national development strategy behind all this. I know it's NOT that easy for just a "black or white" situation. And I also agree there is so-called synergy issue between various entities (IAF, MoD, HAL), and their interests.

Nevertheless, there supposed to be some "tipping point", isn't it? When will be critical time that someone rise and yell to HAL: we simply don't have time to wait for a reasonable investment & production rate.

Before 2/24, so many wise people said NO way, Russia is NOT going to invade Ukraine. Likewise, many Ukraine arms manufacturers, counting on that, could be saying: "without certain order quantity, I'm NOT going to raise pace of my factory...". (I admit never been good to make good analogy).

Exactly when will be our tipping point?



Fair enough. Then I hope that HAL learn something called contingency plan. Truly wish time will tells us they did...

Such weird logic like HAL exists in a vacuum. HAL more or less fulfils their mandate, I 100% think they fall short in some areas but on the whole they perform to their capacities within their remit


want monkeys? Pay peanuts. How did Boeing,LM, Dassualt, Sukhoi etc etc become what they are?

Some people actually seem to think this is a chicken and egg paradox when it’s incredibly simple- PRODUCTION CAPACITY COMES FROM ORDERS. No one, NO ONE, on the planet is going to invest in capacity that will be unutilised (unless you are China) This is even more pronounced now with the LCA where something like 70% of the LRUs are outsourced to tier 2/3 PRIVATE suppliers in India. The private sector will never issue a work order without payment upfront and a signed contract as they have fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders.

Now I think HAL *may* have figured out just basic logic- they cannot become successful by relying on sporadic, inconsistent and low level volume orders from Indian services especially when they are done under such shady circumstances (wtf is KA226 all about?) so they are trying to get dependable revenue streams outside of India now, whether they are successful with that is an open question but it’s what they need to do.


the frankly disgusting saga of the LCH has said it all, HAL has done pretty much everything but pay the armed forces to order the LCH at this point up to and including sending the LCH to the frontlines during the Ladakh tensions in 2020, an almost unheard of precedent for an experimental program. So don’t try and tell me HAL is the main contributor to this mess. It just doesn’t add up.

Let’s hope they recruit the *right* people with the right contacts who know how to grease the right hands as is the practice in the arms industry all over the world.

So I’m short- no Indian national security doesn’t exist to serve HAL. HAL’s woes are a symptom of the mess that is Indian procurement policies, substitute HAL for any Indian defence entity and you get similarly depressing outlooks- why did MKU go years without any Indian orders and almost entirely sustain itself from the export market? Why are cash rich mega corporations in India not building up defence businesses in India? India has the 4th or 5th largest defence budget on paper (CAPEX obviously a fraction of that) but why has this not translated into Indian defence success stories? You can’t tell me this is all HAL’s fault.

 

[Flying Dagger]

If you’re going to go down this road at least have the facts on your side to start with

- MK.2 from 2028-9 at the earliest
-AMCA will be made by a SPV where HAL will be a 1/3 consortium member

the game you are playing (order low, criticise for low delivery then use this as an excuse to keep ordering low) is the same bait and switch game the Indian services use whilst they look to leverage production lines with 3+ years of backlogs and or 1000s of units commitment.

seriously for 16+16+8 orders what kind of production rate would be enough to satisfy these whiners? 6/yr? 20?40?

have some sense first, criticise them for failing to meet yet another deadline but to throw the baby out with the bath water by relegating them as irrelevant for projects that haven’t even flown yet is ridiculous

ALH has shown that with stable production lines and consistent orders HAL has no issues, to date they have had a mere 40 unit orders spread over THREE different specifications (IOC, FOC and trainer) where they’ve had to deal with changing requirements on a continual basis. We cannot judge their fixed wing production because we simply haven’t seen what they can do yet with stable orders, fixed specifications and long lead times

IF they screw up MK1A delivery then they absolutely should be broken up (rotary wing and fixed wing) and sold off to the highest bidder but I don’t think it will come to that and you can save this comment

We have seen what they can do with stable order too as they have been in production for decades. Is not the first time they are going to produce an aircraft.

 

[Vamsi]

So, only 2 aircrafts remaining then ??

 

[THESIS THORON]

So, only 2 aircrafts remaining then ??

after this what will be produced ?