LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[Whitecollar]

Do you know about any AWACS killer missile or something ?

Yes...but what's that got to do with reusing a flight worthy intact RVV-AE's integration on a Tejas?
Russia does have an R-37 hypersonic missile which can decimate AWACS(even erieye) but they refrain from selling it to India.
Chinkies have their pet PL-15s that can follow linear motion and target long range targets(but very expensive).
We have our Astra Mk2 in development(limited to 160kms)

 

[johnq]

I wish the government would triple the Tejas MK1A order and set up 2 additional manufacturing lines in the private sector as well as using our private sectors' capabilities more in terms of maintenance of the Tejas and other fighters. This will improve the reliability of the aircraft as well as increase the availability of the aircraft to the IAF, as HAL has issues and limitations.

 

[Kchontha]

Concentrate on mk2, that should be the backbone.

 

[johnq]

Concentrate on mk2, that should be the backbone.

It will not be ready for another few years, and we need the numbers sooner than later. I say triple the Tejas MK1A order and increase production using private industry's help on a war footing by adding 2 to 3 more lines. The Tejas' greatest strength is that it's extremely economical compared to imports.

 

[Kchontha]

It will not be ready for another few years, and we need the numbers sooner than later. I say triple the Tejas MK1A order and increase production using private industry's help on a war footing by adding 2 to 3 more lines. The Tejas' greatest strength is that it's extremely economical compared to imports.

Mk 2 will be very late, amca will also be late, mk1a we will be having will be enough.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Now that IAF has started receiving RVV-SD, few of the RVV-AEs should be checked for flight worthiness, health, etc and integrated with FOC Tejas.
Having a 70km BVR before Astra MK1 gets inducted will be a pretty fiesty advantage for forward base Tejas squardons in future.

Now Astra Mk1 will get AESA seeker. It is becoming more lethal.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

I wish the government would triple the Tejas MK1A order and set up 2 additional manufacturing lines in the private sector as well as using our private sectors' capabilities more in terms of maintenance of the Tejas and other fighters. This will improve the reliability of the aircraft as well as increase the availability of the aircraft to the IAF, as HAL has issues and limitations.

Tejas MK1 has intake and aerodynamic issues. It will be solves to some extent in Mk1A. Had Tejas been one meter long, it would have been a better plane. Short length restricts Tejas' performance by not very good compliance with area ruling. Intake redesign will improve power by 3%. I hope that a new design Tejas is made by private players.

 

[Aman kumar]

It will not be ready for another few years, and we need the numbers sooner than later. I say triple the Tejas MK1A order and increase production using private industry's help on a war footing by adding 2 to 3 more lines. The Tejas' greatest strength is that it's extremely economical compared to imports.

Bhai mk1a ka order triple krne pe mk2 ke lie gajah hi nahi bachegi...
280 mk1==> 14 squadron
272 Mki ==> 15 squadron
Mig29+ m2000==> 6 squadron
Rafale ==> 2 squadron
Total 37 squadron inse hi ho jainge... fir jaguars be hai... mk2 kaha adjust kroge... fir manufacturing time aur cost be mk2 se overlap krega...
realistically total of 123 mk1a ka order chayea aur 36 additional rafale ka order de ke yea mmrca ka the end...

 

[Spitfire9]

It will not be ready for another few years, and we need the numbers sooner than later. I say triple the Tejas MK1A order and increase production using private industry's help on a war footing by adding 2 to 3 more lines. The Tejas' greatest strength is that it's extremely economical compared to imports.

Given past non-performance in adhering to schedules, it is likely that MWF will be delayed, so I agree that more Mk1A's should be ordered. It may be that performance is a little compromised due to area ruling problems but it I think the alternatives are likely to be (a) reduced squadron strength through retirement (b) buy a lot more Rafales.

In any event the current setup has failed miserably in producing Tejas. I think that GOI should get a different company involved in Tejas production (a) to increase supply capacity - and actually supply instead of talking about doing it in the future (b) debug manufacture (c) to compare performance with HAL's performance.

And Mk1A costs a fraction of foreign alternatives. So wake up GOI and do something sensible in a timely manner just for once! Show a little competence!

 

[omaebakabaka]

Given past non-performance in adhering to schedules, it is likely that MWF will be delayed, so I agree that more Mk1A's should be ordered. It may be that performance is a little compromised due to area ruling problems but it I think the alternatives are likely to be (a) reduced squadron strength through retirement (b) buy a lot more Rafales.

In any event the current setup has failed miserably in producing Tejas. I think that GOI should get a different company involved in Tejas production (a) to increase supply capacity - and actually supply instead of talking about doing it in the future (b) debug manufacture (c) to compare performance with HAL's performance.

And Mk1A costs a fraction of foreign alternatives. So wake up GOI and do something sensible in a timely manner just for once! Show a little competence!

Not sure if its HAL related thing....I am thinking couple of things one being that LCA 1st version has root deficiencies and may not be prudent to order in large numbers and two being that we have difficulties in getting components from overseas and someone pressing their buttons to influence our politics and force us to make compromises somewhere else.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

I wish the government would triple the Tejas MK1A order and set up 2 additional manufacturing lines in the private sector as well as using our private sectors' capabilities more in terms of maintenance of the Tejas and other fighters. This will improve the reliability of the aircraft as well as increase the availability of the aircraft to the IAF, as HAL has issues and limitations.

Private sector has no experience in building aircrafts. So how come giving maintenance or asking them to build will improve reliability is beyond me? HAL is transforming itself. Myself has turned from a critic to its well wisher. It's performing ok. Give HAL enough orders first. They will manufacture even 40 per year.

Maximum another 40mk1A might be ordered. And that would be it. There is no question of triping the order.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

It will not be ready for another few years, and we need the numbers sooner than later. I say triple the Tejas MK1A order and increase production using private industry's help on a war footing by adding 2 to 3 more lines. The Tejas' greatest strength is that it's extremely economical compared to imports.

As per ADA, Tejas Mk2 is a follow on programme. Unlike the Engine confusion in Mk1, there is no such issues here. Most of the components/avionics are already developed including mission computers. Engine was pre-decided to F414. Parts are being machined and shipped to ADA/HAL as we speak. Already some parts have been shipped. Even some reports say initial software development is complete.

Since many components will.be reused from Mk1A, testing times will be lower.

 

[johnq]

HAL has shown deficiencies in the past related to maintenance also. You need to involve private sector to a much greater extent because you need more qualified people due to competition in the private sector, as well as better funding and better equipment setups, etc. This would have to be done in a way that companies and people are held accountable with regular audits etc. also so that it's not just free money. Of course the government organizations will also have to cooperate initially to get them up to speed.
But the sad truth is the IAF needed the greater numbers of aircraft yesterday, and the token order of MK1A will simply not be enough. So then what are the options? Either you throw 20 to 30 billion dollars down the drain in another import to get a 120 odd aircraft which will require another few years to acquire maintenance knowledge of, and HAL may end up screwing that up also. Or, you accept that the Tejas MK1A may not be a perfect plane but it's good enough, and given its cost to benefit ratio it's a good choice, since it costs less than a 1/4th of what imports will cost you. So you increase the MK1A order by 3 times, rope in the private sector to add additional 3 manufacturing lines to increase the numbers quickly, and also use this as an opportunity to increase private players in maintenance of aircraft, since HAL has been having issues with this, and this will also increase aircraft availability in the IAF in general. Given the limited budget and the delays with everything including MWF (also due to pandemic), IMHO, this is the best option to increase the numbers quickly. In return you get an aircraft with a world class AESA radar, decent AESA based jamming, decent pod based optronics, decent BVR and short range weapons, and a decent engine in large numbers quickly. We need the numbers now given the situation arising at the borders, and we need them without breaking the bank. The solution is in front of us. it's only a question of if we are brave enough to make the decision.
When the MWF comes, it will replace the Mirages, the Jaguars and the Mig-29s along with the older Sukhois in numbers also. The demand will also be there in the future, given evolving threats.

 

[Spitfire9]

Private sector has no experience in building aircrafts. So how come giving maintenance or asking them to build will improve reliability is beyond me? HAL is transforming itself. Myself has turned from a critic to its well wisher. It's performing ok. Give HAL enough orders first. They will manufacture even 40 per year.

Maximum another 40mk1A might be ordered. And that would be it. There is no question of triping the order.

I suggest GOI starts looking to set up a non-PSU in the aircraft assembly business. PSU's are not the most dynamic of creatures anywhere. If GOI is serious about developing export customers, there has to be the capacity to supply.

My maths is not good but let's say

id = IAF demand
ed = export demand
hs = HAL supply
ps = private supply

hs < id
hs < (id+ed)

whereas

hs+ps > id
hs+ps > (id+ed)

GOI owns HAL. I think it should facilitate a private company setting up production by transferring HAL staff with the necessary knowhow to the new company (or loaning them) so that the new company develops the expertise to assemble fast jets, starting with Mk1A.

If HAL is not sufficiently ambitious to go out and sell in the world market, let the private company do it. In fact, let the private company do it anyway. I think that they would recruit better sales and marketing people than you would expect to find in a government-owned entity.

 

[FalconZero]

Recently it was rumoured that DRDO is looking to test Astra missile with new seeker. Do you guys think that maybe they wanted to integrate upgraded astra mk1 with tejas that's why they were waiting until now?
So if things go well then by the end of the year or April next year, tejas will get astra onboard, maybe some tests.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

HAL has shown deficiencies in the past related to maintenance also. You need to involve private sector to a much greater extent because you need more qualified people due to competition in the private sector, as well as better funding and better equipment setups, etc. This would have to be done in a way that companies and people are held accountable with regular audits etc. also so that it's not just free money. Of course the government organizations will also have to cooperate initially to get them up to speed.
But the sad truth is the IAF needed the greater numbers of aircraft yesterday, and the token order of MK1A will simply not be enough. So then what are the options? Either you throw 20 to 30 billion dollars down the drain in another import to get a 120 odd aircraft which will require another few years to acquire maintenance knowledge of, and HAL may end up screwing that up also. Or, you accept that the Tejas MK1A may not be a perfect plane but it's good enough, and given its cost to benefit ratio it's a good choice, since it costs less than a 1/4th of what imports will cost you. So you increase the MK1A order by 3 times, rope in the private sector to add additional 3 manufacturing lines to increase the numbers quickly, and also use this as an opportunity to increase private players in maintenance of aircraft, since HAL has been having issues with this, and this will also increase aircraft availability in the IAF in general. Given the limited budget and the delays with everything including MWF (also due to pandemic), IMHO, this is the best option to increase the numbers quickly. In return you get an aircraft with a world class AESA radar, decent AESA based jamming, decent pod based optronics, decent BVR and short range weapons, and a decent engine in large numbers quickly. We need the numbers now given the situation arising at the borders, and we need them without breaking the bank. The solution is in front of us. it's only a question of if we are brave enough to make the decision.
When the MWF comes, it will replace the Mirages, the Jaguars and the Mig-29s along with the older Sukhois in numbers also. The demand will also be there in the future, given evolving threats.

It's not a wish list of yours or mine. It's the wish list of the IAF that matters along with the government in power. Nothing else matters. If the govt wants or can spend 30B for new ac acquisition then IAF would be the happy person here.
Second private sector people are nothing but ex HAL or ex ISRO or Ex ADA or Ex DRDO people working most of the time. Their thought process would be framed by the time period they worked in there. It's not going to bring parallel innovation. It will bring some time savings etc but they will be asked to lead a workforce which won't be experienced and they have to painstakingly build everything from scratch which will take few years.
The private sector has to being in people from Germany or US with experience in Boeing or LM or Raytheon etc to bring fast innovation back on table. Will they spend that much money is a question to be seen.

One more problem with govt is piecemeal orders as our govt likes to pay very low initial downpayment. If 272 Su had been ordered in a single go, HAL would have manufactured 24 or even 36 per year. But whatever HAL got orders was 40+100+140 or something in that combo and every order was placed during the end phase of the first order. Will the private sector take the risk? Take the example of L&T factory which manufactured 100 K9. The factory is now put into disuse. L&T was promised follow on orders verbally. Now they have nothing with wasted money on their hands. As a result any subsequent follow on orders will be costly. There are a lots of factors to be looked into. We are a developing country and as the govt in power has its priority. And armed forces equipment is not.

We should bring in private sector but they should be encouraged slowly and steadily. One can't jump up just by manufacturing. Boeing, LM has 60 years history.

In my opinion private sector should be asked to look into developing transport aircraft along with ADA. Tata is already building fuselages for Boeing and Airbus. Fighter is an different ballgame altogether.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

I suggest GOI starts looking to set up a non-PSU in the aircraft assembly business. PSU's are not the most dynamic of creatures anywhere. If GOI is serious about developing export customers, there has to be the capacity to supply.

My maths is not good but let's say

id = IAF demand
ed = export demand
hs = HAL supply
ps = private supply

hs < id
hs < (id+ed)

whereas

hs+ps > id
hs+ps > (id+ed)

GOI owns HAL. I think it should facilitate a private company setting up production by transferring HAL staff with the necessary knowhow to the new company (or loaning them) so that the new company develops the expertise to assemble fast jets, starting with Mk1A.

If HAL is not sufficiently ambitious to go out and sell in the world market, let the private company do it. In fact, let the private company do it anyway. I think that they would recruit better sales and marketing people than you would expect to find in a government-owned entity.

It's not the business of the government to be in business. That too as an minority stakeholders. HAL is an company. It's 90% owned by the govt. It's listed. The govt can't simply move around employees to a new non HAL company. It would be delisted, stake holders will go to court, employees on strike and govt with egg on its face.

I suggest the GoI stop with piecemeal ordering and start ordering huge numbers from the word go. I just gave the example of Sukhoi in my previous post. HAL has improved bounds. It's trainer AC programme is an example. Mk1A is an HAL project . As for exports, first let's concentrate on Indian orders first. Then we can explore exports.

 

[johnq]

I forgot to mention above that I am also worried about HAL after its recent loss in personnel due to the pandemic. In such a scenario, bringing in the private sector could help. Either way, the greater numbers of Tejas MK1A quickly are a better option, IMHO, than throwing away 30 billion on another import.
PS, HAL has had serious issues with manufacturing and maintenance quality control in the past:

The Truth Hurts, Says Indian Navy's 1st Dhruv Flight Commander - Livefist

By Commander YASHODHAN MARATHE (Retd.) I’m a second generation helicopter pilot and have been flying rotary wing machines since 1989. Of course, the primary amount of flying has been on HAL built aircraft, the Chetak and the ALH and of course, the Kiran. I’m quite saddened by the slew of…

www.livefistdefence.com

50 percent Privatization of the aircraft manufacturing and maintenance by roping in more private players will introduce greater competition and greater quality control also. Competition leads to progress.

 

[Spitfire9]

It's not the business of the government to be in business. That too as an minority stakeholders. HAL is an company. It's 90% owned by the govt. It's listed. The govt can't simply move around employees to a new non HAL company. It would be delisted, stake holders will go to court, employees on strike and govt with egg on its face.

I suggest the GoI stop with piecemeal ordering and start ordering huge numbers from the word go. I just gave the example of Sukhoi in my previous post. HAL has improved bounds. It's trainer AC programme is an example. Mk1A is an HAL project . As for exports, first let's concentrate on Indian orders first. Then we can explore exports.

Mmmm... The 90% shareholder of a company is 100% entitled to direct employees to exercise their skills doing work for (not being employed by) another company. Not for free!

I agree about exports. Get the product and supply right before offering it to export customers. I used to export. I remember once making a company insolvent because I tested their product by selling it in the home market to check the saleability of the product, the reliabiity of the supplier in delivering, quality etc They produced an injection moulded consumer product in 3 sizes. It transpired that the tool to make the smallest slightly overheated the product during the moulding process resulting in discolouration so I would not market it abroad until the problem was fixed. Unfortunately the manufacturer ran out of cash before the problem was solved.

My opinion: get it right - production, quality, after sales support. If your home market customers are happy with the product, then think of exporting it. Exporting without knowing you can supply and support a product competently in your own market is taking a risk that it would be best to avoid.

 

[patriots]

I wish the government would triple the Tejas MK1A order and set up 2 additional manufacturing lines in the private sector as well as using our private sectors' capabilities more in terms of maintenance of the Tejas and other fighters. This will improve the reliability of the aircraft as well as increase the availability of the aircraft to the IAF, as HAL has issues and limitations.

Mk1a a stopgap solution
And as rudra is there

And we should more focus on mwf and amca now