LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[HariPrasad-1]

His bias against Russian platform is mind boggling and his love for Gripen is unclear. For Shri Iyer, all Russian hardware crap even if we won all wars using these very platforms.
Sweden with unproven combat record is reportedly to have build the very best plane

Russian Planes are masterpiece of Engineering but legs behind in Electronics which is becoming very important now a days. Russian planes are loosing their edge. Grippen is much better than any Russian plane than Su 57 to date. While talking on MMRCA competition, Ex Airforce chief (I do not know who he was exactly) had said that he had 2 choices only. First was Rafale and second was Grippen. Sab Grippen is a top class plane and emerged as conclusive winner in Red flag among the European nations.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

From an aerodynamic perspective Russian planes like Mig 29, Su-27(variants), PAK-FA are very good.
But the Archilees heel is the engine, electronics and RCS.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Shorter length and bigger wings make it less Aerodynamic. Mk1A will address Aerodynamic issue to a large extent. Lighter in weight and better in aerodynamics will make MK1A much deadlier and give it an edge over the planes of our potential adversaries in neighborhood because of superior T/W ratio. It can easily kill F 16 BLK 52 in BVR and WVR combat. Simulation study in Beta coefficient has revealed that any weight reduction of Tejas from current level will give it a significant edge over F 16 in close combat.

 

[Killbot]

Russian Planes are masterpiece of Engineering but legs behind in Electronics which is becoming very important now a days. Russian planes are loosing their edge. Grippen is much better than any Russian plane than Su 57 to date. While talking on MMRCA competition, Ex Airforce chief (I do not know who he was exactly) had said that he had 2 choices only. First was Rafale and second was Grippen. Sab Grippen is a top class plane and emerged as conclusive winner in Red flag among the European nations.

Gripen was never a choice at all. The competition was between Rafale and EF Typhoon. Gripen is more akin to Mirage 2k or MWF or even LCA than Rafale. And its crash record isn't confidence inspiring either.

 

[Bleh]

Shorter length and bigger wings make it less Aerodynamic. Mk1A will address Aerodynamic issue to a large extent.

Nah re, nah re, na re.. It it were that easy then noone would need wind tunnels.

 

[VikingGod]

Tejas has combat radius of 500 km why is it so low

South Koreas 5th gen KF-X has 500km Combat radius same as Tejas Mk1 . Combat radius is complex thing its not ferry range . Its good combat radius . Even best Heavy big planes like F-35 go around 1000km depend upon situation even F-35 combat radius can drop to 500km in difficult situations .

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Nah re, nah re, na re.. It it were that easy then noone would need wind tunnels.

This is an established conclusion in aerodynamic study when the Tejas couldn't achieve sea level performance. There are many aerodynamic improvements suggested which will make its Transonic acceleration 20%v higher and highest speed 2% higher than current level.

If you have the wind tunnel doesn't mean that your design is always optimum.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

From an aerodynamic perspective Russian planes like Mig 29, Su-27(variants), PAK-FA are very good.
But the Archilees heel is the engine, electronics and RCS.

You nailed it. +1.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Gripen was never a choice at all. The competition was between Rafale and EF Typhoon. Gripen is more akin to Mirage 2k or MWF or even LCA than Rafale. And its crash record isn't confidence inspiring either.

It was because Gripen C/D was offered at that time which did not fall in MMRCA category. It had a low power Single engine. Now Gripen E has come which carries 5.5 ton payload against 4+ tons of Gripen C/D. Couple of Gripen had fallen before they were declared operational. Many more Russian planes have fallen compared to Gripen and yet we use them in large number. Gripen is world's best single engine fighter today without any doubt. It is better than F 16 and J10 can not come even close. STR, ITR, Loop Timing, Short landing, Sensor fusion, Software, Ease of maintenance etc. Nothing can beat Gripen E. Our MK2 project is very ambitious. Let us see how it comes out to be? But I hope that it will be close to Gripen E.

 

[Spitfire9]

He wants us to buy a fighter jet which has components from so many countries that we cannot risk to have bad relations with any one of them or these jets will be reduced to overpriced dust collectors.

Agreed, much better to make all the aircraft including components in India.

Things would be different if India had not developed a light fighter and needed one. Mk1A and MWF cover Gripen's performance, so what argument is there in favour of Gripen?

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Agreed, much better to make all the aircraft including components in India.

Things would be different if India had not developed a light fighter and needed one. Mk1A and MWF cover Gripen's performance, so what argument is there in favour of Gripen?

Nothing to argue in favor of Gripen unless we go for F 16 or F15. Gripen is a better choice than both US offers on MMRCA. We should buy Rafale and only Rafale in 2nd phase of MMRCA. Eurofighter is not at par, F16 and F 15 are old air frame, Russian Mig 35 has poor electronic and it is not modern. Only two contenders left are Rafale and Grippen. Both are modern aircraft and top in their class. We already have order 36 Rafales. The exorbitant amount we paid goes for India specific changes which is a one time cost. Any repeat order will not attract the amount once again. So subsequent order of Rafale shall be cheaper. Maintenance and inventory shall be cheaper.

 

[Lonewolf]

Nothing to argue in favor of Gripen unless we go for F 16 or F15. Gripen is a better choice than both US offers on MMRCA. We should buy Rafale and only Rafale in 2nd phase of MMRCA. Eurofighter is not at par, F16 and F 15 are old air frame, Russian Mig 35 has poor electronic and it is not modern. Only two contenders left are Rafale and Grippen. Both are modern aircraft and top in their class. We already have order 36 Rafales. The exorbitant amount we paid goes for India specific changes which is a one time cost. Any repeat order will not attract the amount once again. So subsequent order of Rafale shall be cheaper. Maintenance and inventory shall be cheaper.

Buddy it's not always about what capability it have only ,you can't make your fleet a mixture from lot of nation , gripen is already a mixture in single aircraft , we need to clear up decades old mess instead of making new one , mwf won't just matchup with gripen ng but surpass it 6.5 ton payload and avionics will be atleast on par with it , just wait for it.

 

[Bleh]

 

[Flying Dagger]

Once Bulk production of Tejas kicks in we need to send Jaguars , Mirage and Migs to the reserve and then eventually scrap them after 10+ years.

There is no point in maintaining these three types. Su Rafale Tejas AMCA these four will do the job fine.

Gripen was indeed best fighter jet to opt after Rafale considering cost benefit infact if we had gone for it we might be in a better situation.

But now there is no point giving it another thought .

 

[Lonewolf]

Once Bulk production of Tejas kicks in we need to send Jaguars , Mirage and Migs to the reserve and then eventually scrap them after 10+ years.

There is no point in maintaining these three types. Su Rafale Tejas AMCA these four will do the job fine.

Gripen was indeed best fighter jet to opt after Rafale considering cost benefit infact if we had gone for it we might be in a better situation.

But now there is no point giving it another thought .

Su if guven indigenous upgrade would reduce maintenance hassles much more , that would be like rafale + indigenous + somewhat less indigenous

 

[Flying Dagger]

Su if guven indigenous upgrade would reduce maintenance hassles much more , that would be like rafale + indigenous + somewhat less indigenous

Su is our mistake in such a huge number to be honest... It's huge RCS is a disadvantage.

The only good thing is we can use it as a bomb truck , to launch brahmos , and as mini AWACS if we can get a AESA radar. Also huge missiles can be loaded in it to act against AWACS of enemy.

If we hadn't bought so many of these machines Rafale or Su 57 are much better replacement.

It all depends on the strategy IAF employ to use them later. We can definitely replace radar ew suite etc but engine will be russian .

 

[VikingGod]

Once Bulk production of Tejas kicks in we need to send Jaguars , Mirage and Migs to the reserve and then eventually scrap them after 10+ years.

There is no point in maintaining these three types. Su Rafale Tejas AMCA these four will do the job fine.

Gripen was indeed best fighter jet to opt after Rafale considering cost benefit infact if we had gone for it we might be in a better situation.

But now there is no point giving it another thought .

Half of Su30 should be replaced by Tejas Mk2 & Mk1A . They will cost 10 billion to upgrade now . They have too big RCS , maintenance cost . We should not operate 300 Su-30 , crazy number .... keep 150 for diversity , Replace 150 in next 15 years . Even cheaper Tejas MK1A can be used if Mk2 is costly . We don't need such heavy plane in such numbers .

 

[Spitfire9]

Once Bulk production of Tejas kicks in we need to send Jaguars , Mirage and Migs to the reserve and then eventually scrap them after 10+ years.

I thought India recently spent $50 million a frame on M2K upgrades. Just to put them in reserve?

Anyway, how long will it take to build enough Tejas/MWF to replace one for one all the M2K and Bison? 7 years? 8? 9? And that is just to stand still.

 

[Lonewolf]

I thought India recently spent $50 million a frame on M2K upgrades. Just to put them in reserve?

Anyway, how long will it take to build enough Tejas/MWF to replace one for one all the M2K and Bison? 7 years? 8? 9? And that is just to stand still.

No that 50 million figure is really misleading , also tejas mk 2 will arrive in 2025-26 serial production model , first it will fill up some squadron requirements , say 2 squadrons then it will start replacing mirage and remaining Jaguar mirage will stay with iaf till 2032 to be conservative .

So let's consider 2032 scenario , 21 squadrons of sukhoi , 4-5 squadrons of rafale , 7 squadron of tejas mk 1 + mk1a , 3 squadrons of mig 29 upg (most likely all transferred to kazikistan oversea base ) , 5 squadrons of tejas mk2 , and after this we will see enhanced delivery of tejas mk 2 at 18 aircraft per annum ( export not included) , delivery of amca and tedbf to begin in 2031 foc variant maybe .

Total available squadrons in 2032 will be 41 excluding mirage and Jaguar , so we can easily retire some Jaguar post 2025 and mirage post 2028 , if hal ramps up production in between to cater any big export order , we may see more of it

 

[Flying Dagger]

I thought India recently spent $50 million a frame on M2K upgrades. Just to put them in reserve?

Anyway, how long will it take to build enough Tejas/MWF to replace one for one all the M2K and Bison? 7 years? 8? 9? And that is just to stand still.

That was corruption at peak.

My guess is by 2035-40 we will have enough number to send Mirage and Mig home and possibly some 40 around old Su too.