LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[Spitfire9]

Do read about the proposed M88-4, it uses the same hot core (but of course the 110kN engine will have to be new but can build on progress in Kaveri & M88) and then from Safran's own pages:

Salient's to note from Safran's possible contribution to SCAF:

• Hot core and engine integration expertise which has so far evaded GTRE
• Strong supersonic thrust and also be a fuel sipper to cruise at low speed over long periods
• compact
• lighter
• much more powerful so SCAF can carry more weapons
• turbine inlet temperature of 2100K (Kaveri can handle only 1700K, EJ200 1800K & M88-2 1850K for reference)- a temperature out of reach for current blade materials and technology
• Safran has given itself a research platform for advanced turbine blades to develop sophisticated technology and materials that can withstand these temperatures.
• The engine should also have a variable cycle—in other words, it should be able to adjust the ratio between the primary and secondary air flows—and have an adjustable nozzle to make the aircraft easier to handle.
• making the engine hybrid to manage on-board energy issues.
• M88 derived engine to power first prototype
• Advancements back ported to Rafale M88s- ours also

Isn't it a perfect match for AMCA Mk2 engine or am I missing something here? Esp how GTRE is also weak on the hot core section- whereas in the RR partnership DRDO will be incharge of the hot core- an area where they have already failed.

I am not saying that M88-4 will not be a very good engine but I think SAFRAN are more likely to be very expensive compared to RR and a brand new design is likely to offer more than a decades old design. I think India is likely to get more for less with RR.

I do find it alarming, though, that DRDO would be designated the lead on the hot core. The work allocation would need to change unless India wants to risk ending up with an engine that does not work 10 years after delivery is scheduled.

DRDO to lead in core development when it has shown it does not know how to do it and has shown it cannot do it = madness IMO. Better to go with SAFRAN unless that changes. They might charge more for less but at least there would be a working engine result.

 

[MonaLazy]

I am not saying that M88-4 will not be a very good engine but I think SAFRAN are more likely to be very expensive compared to RR and a brand new design is likely to offer more than a decades old design. I think India is likely to get more for less with RR.

I do find it alarming, though, that DRDO would be designated the lead on the hot core. The work allocation would need to change unless India wants to risk ending up with an engine that does not work 10 years after delivery is scheduled.

DRDO to lead in core development when it has shown it does not know how to do it and has shown it cannot do it = madness IMO. Better to go with SAFRAN unless that changes. They might charge more for less but at least there would be a working engine result.

all good but the proposed SCAF engine is also an all new design- new materials etc. so should be a good fit too. On the cost front I tend to agree- French are pricey!

 

[Lonewolf]

Rolls Royce?

Don't consider European and american too much different , except Pratt and witney ,which have some small issue .

Rolls royce had worked with ge for f 136 , also theur civilian and marine engine are quite awesome.

 

[Lonewolf]

I am not saying that M88-4 will not be a very good engine but I think SAFRAN are more likely to be very expensive compared to RR and a brand new design is likely to offer more than a decades old design. I think India is likely to get more for less with RR.

I do find it alarming, though, that DRDO would be designated the lead on the hot core. The work allocation would need to change unless India wants to risk ending up with an engine that does not work 10 years after delivery is scheduled.

DRDO to lead in core development when it has shown it does not know how to do it and has shown it cannot do it = madness IMO. Better to go with SAFRAN unless that changes. They might charge more for less but at least there would be a working engine result.

Drdo have improved a lot from previous , and problem with kaveri is that to solve all it's problem ,it is required to be evaluated from square one , and drdo was uncomfortable with monetary angle on it , hot core is not solely drdo work share , they will lead ,but rr have to help in arras of expertise , we sre indirectly funding tempest engine if deal materialize , and rr have to do the work , cause otherwise they have to do that part independently .

 

[MonaLazy]

Got some more tidbits here:

After French Safran asked India to invest close to 6000 Cr and committed to investing 3000cr of its investment as part of Rafale offset obligations to revive India’s now stalled Kaveri engine program, DRDO is now considering having talks with Britain’s Rolls Royce after French offer was considered too pricey by DRDO. DRDO already has invested over 3000cr in the Kaveri engine program but an additional investment for 6000 cr only to get core section of M-88-3 engines which included custom modification of the new Kaveri engine with Indian developed technology, and later certification of the modified engine along with ToT cud hv meant that SAFRAN enjoyed Royalty for its tech for decades to come. acc to DRDO at least for Tejas Mk1A and MWF program they are sticking with USA's GE F404-IN20 (84 kN) and F414-GE-INS6 (98 kN) turbofan engines and Even for Naval Mk2 program, GE’s F414 turbofan engines are preferred but the problem with GE hs being is that these engines are brought off the shelf n hs no option of even local license assembly let alone any ToT of Key core tech Prototypes of 5th Gen AMCA Stealth fighter jets will use GE’s F414 in the initial stage bt d aircraft requires more powerful engine which cn generate 110kN of Thrust class over what current GE engines cn generate 98kN for which GE hs offered India its F414 Enhanced Engine which it says will be ready by 2022. F414 Enhanced Engine which has been under development for the US Navy for its F/A-18 E/F and EA 18G aircraft fleet will be able to generate around 116kN Thrust class which is 18% improvement over Standard F414 engines. GE believes F414 Enhanced Engines which will go into production by 2022 n already hs orders worth $630 mn frm US Navy to replace older engines in its aircraft will make it a perfect fit for d AMCA pro since the developmental cost of the program already is funded by US Navy. British Defence Secretary in his visit to India in 2017 had offered India to jointly develop a new engine based on EuroJet turbofan engine which powers Eurofighter Typhoon. The UK already has invited India to co-develop a 6th-gen fighter called the Tempest but no decision has been taken yet but India is yet to take a call on co-development offer on both engine and new 6th generation fighter aircraft Wth the United Kingdom. Military think tanks in India have called for the revival of Kaveri engine program so that India is not left behind in the development of mil-grade turbo class engines for its fighter n transport aircraft programs and hv called upon Modi govt to inject program wth more funds n new engineers n scientist along wth the participation of private sector to kick start the program again. DRDO officials believes the key decision on the direction of the program will be taking place next few months, will DRDO get-go head to have talks with RR or new core team will be formed to develop new higher thrust engines with fresh funding what will chart the future course of military jet engines development in India.

 

[FalconSlayers]

Don't consider European and american too much different , except Pratt and witney ,which have some small issue .

Rolls royce had worked with ge for f 136 , also theur civilian and marine engine are quite awesome.

Why not do a JV with Rolls Royce on existing Kaveri engine to resolve all its issues?

 

[MonaLazy]

Why not do a JV with Rolls Royce on existing Kaveri engine to resolve all its issues?

.. because everything costs money and fixing the Kaveri was already paid for in the Rafale offsets for Safran- or so we thought.

Original plan:

 

[Haldilal]

Ya'll Nibbiars

Ya'll Nibbiars

 

[FalconSlayers]

Ya'll Nibbiars

Post this instead.

 

[FalconSlayers]

.. because everything costs money and fixing the Kaveri was already paid for in the Rafale offsets for Safran- or so we thought.

Original plan:

So will Kaveri engine be revived? Or this 9k crore has been already exhausted?

 

[FalconSlayers]

?????.

Indian Airforce MiG-21 Shot down a Porkistan Navy Brequel Atlantique at sir creek in 1999 a few months after Kargil.

 

[Rassil Krishnan]

Post this instead.
View attachment 83690

is this the atlantique incident after kargil war?

 

[FalconSlayers]

Ya'll Nibbiars you post it's.

I don’t have tshitter.

 

[MonaLazy]

So will Kaveri engine be revived? Or this 9k crore has been already exhausted?

So Safran said we'll put down 3000crs, DRDO another 6000crs. We will put the M88 hot core into it to give you a working Kaveri to the specs you want- but we will charge royalty for each engine produced- like the Su-30 engines we "make".

In 40 years since GTRE started work on Kaveri they have put down all of 3000crs till date. So that 9000crs is still waiting to be deployed somewhere until the offsets are agreed to between Safran & DRDO.

 

[FalconSlayers]

So Safran said we'll put down 3000crs, DRDO another 6000crs. We will put the M88 hot core into it to give you a working Kaveri to the specs you want- but we will charge royalty for each engine produced- like the Su-30 engines we "make".

In 40 years since GTRE started work on Kaveri they have put down all of 3000crs till date. So that 9000crs is still waiting to be deployed somewhere until the offsets are agreed to between Safran & DRDO.

So there is no point throwing money in Kaveri, better use those Kaveri engines in Ghatak UCAVs.

 

[Vamsi]

I do find it alarming, though, that DRDO would be designated the lead on the hot core. The work allocation would need to change unless India wants to risk ending up with an engine that does not work 10 years after delivery is scheduled.

DRDO to lead in core development when it has shown it does not know how to do it and has shown it cannot do it = madness IMO. Better to go with SAFRAN unless that changes. They might charge more for less but at least there would be a working engine result.

The main issue with Kaveri is not with Metallurgy, but the design itself. The present Kaveri uses DMD4 DS blades and had a TeT of 1700K. Imagine , what will be the TeT if we use DMS4 SC Blade, it will easily surpass 1900K. There is no problem with our core, its absolutely fine, that's the reason why we are using it in Ghatak UCAV.
DRDO can develop 110KN engine on its own,all the required building blocks like SCBs ,TBCs ,New Intake Fan etc are ready,but they don't want design issues like in Kaveri and they don't want to risk this time,hence they are involving RR. The reason we are getting full IPR is,we are using our own tech, not theirs and then the Brits will get required money to develop Tempest engine. Win-Win for both.

 

[Lonewolf]

The main issue with Kaveri is not with Metallurgy, but the design itself. The present Kaveri uses DMD4 DS blades and had a TeT of 1700K. Imagine , what will be the TeT if we use DMS4 SC Blade, it will easily surpass 1900K. There is no problem with our core, its absolutely fine, that's the reason why we are using it in Ghatak UCAV.
DRDO can develop 110KN engine on its own,all the required building blocks like SCBs ,TBCs ,New Intake Fan etc are ready,but they don't want design issues like in Kaveri and they don't want to risk this time,hence they are involving RR. The reason we are getting full IPR is,we are using our own tech, not theirs and then the Brits will get required money to develop Tempest engine. Win-Win for both.

Well i read it too somewhere , kaveri is not using the latest designed parts as it will require major redesigning , drdo already have developed material for 1800k temperature ,but putting them in will either mean a major redesign from basic or propping up of another fault , solving which will add a lot of weight , they are asking safran to help them in kaveri redesigning and putting indigenous tech to be placed in it , not for french metallurgy only , afterburner is a different sore eye , but if deal materialize we can expect kaveri being heavily modified .

 

[Gandaberunda]

These Malaysians are doing over the top drama for 12 jets

 

[SUPERPOWER]

These Malaysians are doing over the top drama for 12 jets

Malaysian shitholes are doing as per the instruction of porks...they will come and visit on Indian money and in the end they will reject it...Pakistan would make the fun of the situation..Dont show any soft corners to Malaysians..

 

[Johny_Baba]

I had this wild idea just recently,

say,

we export Tejas Mk.1 or Mk.1A to Mongolia ?

like Their Air-Force is already non-existent with some 5 second hand Mig-29s, some 5 Su-30Ms and 10 Mig-21s...practically not a strong force,
so with considerable export to Mongolia we could arm them with a potent fighter and revive their air force.

then again
if it happens then
is it even feasible in real sense?
like first mongolia is relatively poor country so would they be able to afford Tejas ?
then how to deliver Tejas to them i mean at one side they're surrounded by choyna and on other side Rossiya,
finally giving to their country size would it be possible for them to effectively use it for defensive roles, and of course giving to choyna's size would it be possible for them to effectively use it for offensive roles
and such things