LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[Spitfire9]

It will have to be modified for single engine use- redundant controls etc. but certainly in the realm of possibility.

M88-2 for Indian Rafale (73kN)
M88-3 for LCA IOC/FOC/MK1A (An 80–93 kN thrust variant for single-engine light combat aircraft)
M88-4 for Mk2/TEDBF/AMCA (A 95–105 kN thrust variant for heavier single-engine fighter aircraft)

-3 & -4 are probably paper engines or lab experiments at best- will need substantial time, money and effort to see them through to the finish line. There is also the issue of fighter compatibility like 5(?) years wasted on LCA to adapt it to GE's F404 from GTREs Kaveri earlier. ADA will be the best judge on this.

But what it gives us in return, is no strategic dependency on a fickle minded Uncle Sam who keeps threatening CAATSA. We already have a successful model in Shakti/Ardiden helicopter engines- only have to replicate it. Makes immense financial sense but Safran may be unwilling to offer the same mouth watering terms as RR (total IPR once the engine dev is paid for like with automotive engines)- which is then next best option.

My reaction to any US input is that US is an unreliable supplier. Look at the furore over Turkey ordering S-400 resulting in US breaking its agreement with Turkey to participate in F-35 production and breaking its agreement to supply F-35.

Over the years I have learnt that a decision by GOI regarding defence is about as useful as a contract with a US defence supplier. There is no guarantee that what was contracted with a US supplier or what was decided by GOI will ever come to anything. Nevertheless, I would be interested to know when GOI will make a decision to proceed with (and fund) development of a 110kN engine.

Regarding the players in contention, I thought SAFRAN were rejected on price grounds and RR selected.

I truly hope that India does not screw up on this project. Without an engine that India is free to manufacture locally and free to supply to any country of India's choice (as part of an Indian aircraft), India's future as an exporter of fighter aircraft will be limited.

 

[MonaLazy]

Nevertheless, I would be interested to know when GOI will make a decision to proceed with (and fund) development of a 110kN engine.

Regarding the players in contention, I thought SAFRAN were rejected on price grounds and RR selected.

UK vs French. Nothing in stone till we have an agreement with either Safran or RR. For now both are claiming to be helping India with the 110 kN engine.

I truly hope that India does not screw up on this project. Without an engine that India is free to manufacture locally and free to supply to any country of India's choice (as part of an Indian aircraft), India's future as an exporter of fighter aircraft will be limited.

India's track record is truly dis-heartening & incredibly short sighted. From back in the '60s when HF-24 Marut was Tejas equivalent GoI spurned a similar offer from RR. Few pennies pinched then, are going to cost us a bomb now..

The Marut was described as "essentially a very long-drawn-out failure", and the aircraft's shortcomings were considered to be due to multiple factors. Among these were the difficulties experienced in securing a suitable engine, which was principally a political issue; while arrangements were successfully established with the United Kingdom and Bristol Siddeley for HAL to domestically produce the Orpheus, it was only suitable as an interim measure as it lacked the power to enable the Marut to achieve supersonic speed. The Indian Government refused a proposal made by Rolls-Royce to finance further development of the Orpheus, which had been specifically aimed at producing a more suitable engine for the Marut.

.. i think it was $500m in 1960 money but it was deemed too expensive

The Bristol Siddeley Orpheus was a single-spool turbojet developed by Bristol Siddeley for various light fighter/trainer applications such as the Folland Gnat and the Fiat G.91. Later, the Orpheus formed the core of the first Bristol Pegasus vectored thrust turbofan used in the Harrier Jump Jet family.

 

[BON PLAN]

Of course different capabilities- but Mk1A offers ~60-70% Rafale at ~30% cost. If you have any idea of the Indian automotive sector- then it is similar to Maruti Suzuki Ertiga vs Toyota Innova Crysta.

MK1A 70% of the perf of Rafale.... are you sure?
70% of the Rafale load with a tiny range or 70% of the Rafale range with a tiny load. Not the two together.
So 30% of the price is the correct price, not a discout one.

 

[BON PLAN]

Methinks, Safran should offer full ToT & know-why (rather than just know-how) for M88 at a reasonable cost (from Indian PoV) as well as work on putting M88-4 through its paces in tropical Indian climes (power drops 20% over cooler Europe) so as to get its foot in the door for the giant jet engine market that has to serve LCA iterations, TEDBF & AMCA besides Indian Rafales.

What is a indian point of view correct price?
You tried for yearSSS to purchase know how from G2, PW, RR, now Safran. It always collapsed.

Ask yourself why?

May I suggest, as a joke, to try with the chinese?

 

[BON PLAN]

M88-2 for Indian Rafale (73kN)
M88-3 for LCA IOC/FOC/MK1A (An 80–93 kN thrust variant for single-engine light combat aircraft)
M88-4 for Mk2/TEDBF/AMCA (A 95–105 kN thrust variant for heavier single-engine fighter aircraft)

-3 & -4 are probably paper engines or lab experiments at best- will need substantial time, money and effort to see them through to the finish line. There is also the issue of fighter compatibility like 5(?) years wasted on LCA to adapt it to GE's F404 from GTREs Kaveri earlier. ADA will be the best judge on this.

No. M88-3 was fine tuned and one was air tested.
only the more powerfull model is a paper project.

 

[MonaLazy]

No. M88-3 was fine tuned and one was air tested.
only the more powerfull model is a paper project.

What about the 5th gen Franco-German-Spanish FCAS? With increased power requirements from DEW/lasers and also having to process a lot more info in a even more contested battle space next gen fighters will have to produce more power & 2-3x more electrical power. What's the engine plan there? Esp. given the headwinds the project is suffering and DA has to go it alone like with the Rafale.

The 110kN engine IAF is looking at probably does not exist anywhere in the world right now (even the M88-4 falls short!)- but there's a decade to realize it. If both India and France badly need it for their respective stealth programs then it is likely to be well funded, arrive on time and meet/beat power expectations. Such commonality of purpose probably also bolsters Safran's case to partner with DRDO as opposed to RR for the Indian next generation jet engine program.

 

[MonaLazy]

What is a indian point of view correct price?

From the Indian PoV we have already paid you for the engine via Safran's share of Rafale offsets- if I understand how babus in the MoD (Ministry of Defence) think they were hoping to get full access to the M88 hot core or atleast get Safran to fully certify Kaveri as an air worthy jet engine.

But I understand the French position from previous deals like Mirage-2K upgrades or Scorpenes or even Rafale. French products have a certain flair but are never cheap- infact they are prohibitively expensive.

You tried for yearSSS to purchase know how from G2, PW, RR, now Safran. It always collapsed.

Ask yourself why?

May I suggest, as a joke, to try with the chinese?

America has built legal walls around its IP and will happily sell but share no know-how- so no GE and PW.

Safran & RR are definitely viable options and there are parallel negotiations/work going on- we'll go with whoever offers the better (cheaper) deal.

Chinese are not there yet. Unfortunately for the world quality jet engine know how is consolidated into these 4 manufacturers. Russians engines demand a lot of maintenance.

 

[Willy3]

I don't read any article where things get compared with Gripen.

SAAB is a shameless company of lobystar who cought red handed with attempted bribing in various country.

It's trying to shoot down LCA project after its get rejected in MMRCA race and trying it's luck in the role where we going to fit Tejas Mk2.

 

[MonaLazy]

MK1A 70% of the perf of Rafale.... are you sure?
70% of the Rafale load with a tiny range or 70% of the Rafale range with a tiny load. Not the two together.
So 30% of the price is the correct price, not a discout one.

For enormous range/pay load we already have the giant Su-30MKIs. Does the Rafale have something to offer comparable to the Su-30+Brahmos combination? If yes, considering adding cost to the equation, what then? Mk1A is 70% Rafale in terms of the missions it can support- If I'm not wrong Tejas and Rafale are the only 150km BVR shooting planes in IAF inventory- but look at the price at which they give us that capability. For every tens of million dollars of top class European missile we are close to realizing an Indian alternative and they will mate easily to the Uttam AESAR since we have 100% source control and this capability is available at a fraction of the cost. The price differential negates the last 20-30% advantage, if any, of expensive imported missiles.

How do you take down a Chinese fighter in Pakistani paint when the missile costs more than the fighter itself?

 

[HawkisRight]

For enormous range/pay load we already have the giant Su-30MKIs. Does the Rafale have something to offer comparable to the Su-30+Brahmos combination? If yes, considering adding cost to the equation, what then? Mk1A is 70% Rafale in terms of the missions it can support- If I'm not wrong Tejas and Rafale are the only 150km BVR shooting planes in IAF inventory- but look at the price at which they give us that capability. For every tens of million dollars of top class European missile we are close to realizing an Indian alternative and they will mate easily to the Uttam AESAR since we have 100% source control and this capability is available at a fraction of the cost. The price differential negates the last 20-30% advantage, if any, of expensive imported missiles.

How do you take down a Chinese fighter in Pakistani paint when the missile costs more than the fighter itself?

Bhai calm down u r talking lot of bs... what's even d point of tejas rafale 70% 30% non sense... pointless discussion And NO lca don't offer anything remotely what Rafale does so stop it...and guys stop fapping on bramhos in every talk its cringefest...and bruh there is None fighter in world capable of 150km bvr dere is something called nez

 

[MonaLazy]

Bhai calm down u r talking lot of bs... what's even d point of tejas rafale 70% 30% non sense... pointless discussion And No lca don't offer anything remotely what Rafale does so stop it

one man's BS is another's gold. Why not make use of the ignore option maybe?

 

[Lonewolf]

one man's BS is another's gold. Why not make use of the ignore option maybe?

Bhai calm down u r talking lot of bs... what's even d point of tejas rafale 70% 30% non sense... pointless discussion And NO lca don't offer anything remotely what Rafale does so stop it...and guys stop fapping on bramhos in every talk its cringefest...and bruh there is None fighter in world capable of 150km bvr dere is something called nez

What both of you are saying make sense and does not make it .


Mk 1a wuth integration with sfdr and brahmos ng , will be a significant platform ,at the same time , rafale is whole together different platform , it come with longer range , grester payload , and much more

 

[MonaLazy]

Mk 1a wuth integration with sfdr and brahmos ng , will be a significant platform

Don't forget the CATS warrior program which adds a whole new dimension to air warfare and Tejas is the mother ship for it! NGCCM, NGARM, Indian paveways etc etc if not Mk1A then Mk2 is the target platform for all these upcoming weapons.

 

[MonaLazy]

something called nez

Of course but the opposite number (Pakis/Chinis) will look at Dmax+safety margin of another 25-30kms for their combat air patrols/mis-adventure. It complicates his planning. This is what set the air battle up on 27th Feb 19.

 

[Spitfire9]

What about the 5th gen Franco-German-Spanish FCAS? With increased power requirements from DEW/lasers and also having to process a lot more info in a even more contested battle space next gen fighters will have to produce more power & 2-3x more electrical power. What's the engine plan there? Esp. given the headwinds the project is suffering and DA has to go it alone like with the Rafale.

The 110kN engine IAF is looking at probably does not exist anywhere in the world right now (even the M88-4 falls short!)- but there's a decade to realize it. If both India and France badly need it for their respective stealth programs then it is likely to be well funded, arrive on time and meet/beat power expectations. Such commonality of purpose probably also bolsters Safran's case to partner with DRDO as opposed to RR for the Indian next generation jet engine program.

M88-2 gives 50kN dry thrust, 75kN wet thrust. A near 50% increase in wet thrust would be needed to give 110kN. If India wanted an engine capable of being modified to give a further increase in power to 130kN+, would that be possible without more or less redesigning the engine + paying SAFRAN several billion $$$ more?

I think a new engine is a better bet. I suggest designing a new engine giving 110kN and offering a 20% future increase in thrust without major redesign. I think RR would be a better partner - lower cost, RR seem to have done a lot of research on increasing electrical power generation by the engine.

With RR I think India would get a better. more easily upgradeable engine for a lower outlay.

 

[MonaLazy]

A near 50% increase in wet thrust would be needed to give 110kN. If India wanted an engine capable of being modified to give a further increase in power to 130kN+, would that be possible without more or less redesigning the engine + paying SAFRAN several billion $$$ more?

Do read about the proposed M88-4, it uses the same hot core (but of course the 110kN engine will have to be new but can build on progress in Kaveri & M88) and then from Safran's own pages:

A Futuristic Engine for the SCAF

At the start of 2019, Safran and MTU Aero Engines signed an industrial partnership to design and produce an engine for the SCAF, tomorrow’s fighter jet. Stéphane Cueille, the Director of R&T and Innovation, explains its characteristics and the project’s challenges.
What is the SCAF program?
In French, SCAF stands for système de combat aérien du futur: future air fighter system. It is a program that was launched by France and Germany on February 6. The aim is to design a fighter jet that will replace the Rafale and the Eurofighter by 2035. Dassault and Airbus are in charge of producing the architecture and design of the aircraft, the engine of which will be developed jointly by Safran and MTU Aero Engines.
The division of roles between the two engine manufacturers was based on the principle of the ‘best athlete': the aim is that each one works in their field of expertise. Safran is therefore in charge of developing the hot parts and engine integration, and MTU Aero Engines is responsible for the cold parts and the MRO (maintenance, repair and overhaul) services. Other European manufacturers may join the program, depending on different countries' levels of willingness.

Adrien Daste / Safran
What innovations will enhance this engine?
This new-generation fighter jet should be able to both produce strong supersonic thrust and cruise at a low speed over long periods. Its engine should therefore be versatile. It will also be more compact to be lighter, and its thrust—much more powerful than that of the Rafale—will make it possible for the SCAF to carry more weapons. Lastly, it should contribute to the aircraft's stealth. Many innovations will therefore be required. The turbine, for example, which will reach temperatures around 2,100 K (1,825°C), a temperature out of reach for current blade materials and technology. Safran has given itself a research platform for advanced turbine blades to develop sophisticated technology and materials that can withstand these temperatures. The engine should also have a variable cycle—in other words, it should be able to adjust the ratio between the primary and secondary air flows—and have an adjustable nozzle to make the aircraft easier to handle. Another area of innovation that will be explored is about making the engine hybrid to manage on-board energy issues.

What are Safran's challenges in this program?
The Group will have to show its capacity to innovate by developing—for the year 2025—an engine derived from the M88 engine to power the first SCAF demonstration aircraft. The demonstration engine is planned for 2027. The R&T works carried out for the SCAF are also essential for our other programs: they will give rise to technological solutions which, when applied to our future-generation civil engines, will help us stay competitive.


Find out more
Improvements in view for the M88 engine
The Rafale jet engine will benefit from the works carried out on the engine of tomorrow's fighter jets. It was in this regard that France's defense procurement agency entrusted Safran with an upstream research program, worth 115 million euros over five years to boost the engine's thrust while improving its lifespan.

Salient's to note from Safran's possible contribution to SCAF:

• Hot core and engine integration expertise which has so far evaded GTRE
• Strong supersonic thrust and also be a fuel sipper to cruise at low speed over long periods
• compact
• lighter
• much more powerful so SCAF can carry more weapons
• turbine inlet temperature of 2100K (Kaveri can handle only 1700K, EJ200 1800K & M88-2 1850K for reference)- a temperature out of reach for current blade materials and technology
• Safran has given itself a research platform for advanced turbine blades to develop sophisticated technology and materials that can withstand these temperatures.
• The engine should also have a variable cycle—in other words, it should be able to adjust the ratio between the primary and secondary air flows—and have an adjustable nozzle to make the aircraft easier to handle.
• making the engine hybrid to manage on-board energy issues.
• M88 derived engine to power first prototype
• Advancements back ported to Rafale M88s- ours also

Isn't it a perfect match for AMCA Mk2 engine or am I missing something here? Esp how GTRE is also weak on the hot core section- whereas in the RR partnership DRDO will be incharge of the hot core- an area where they have already failed.

 

[Lonewolf]

Do read about the proposed M88-4 and then from Safran's own pages:



Salient's to note from Safran's possible contribution to SCAF:

• Hot core and engine integration expertise which has so far evaded GTRE
• Strong supersonic thrust and also be a fuel sipper to cruise at low speed over long periods
• compact
• lighter
• much more powerful so SCAF can carry more weapons
• turbine inlet temperature of 2100K (Kaveri can handle only 1700K, EJ200 1800K & M88-2 1850K for reference)- a temperature out of reach for current blade materials and technology
• Safran has given itself a research platform for advanced turbine blades to develop sophisticated technology and materials that can withstand these temperatures.
• The engine should also have a variable cycle—in other words, it should be able to adjust the ratio between the primary and secondary air flows—and have an adjustable nozzle to make the aircraft easier to handle.
• making the engine hybrid to manage on-board energy issues.
• M88 derived engine to power first prototype
• Advancements back ported to Rafale M88s

Isn't it a perfect match for AMCA Mk2 engine or am I missing something here? Esp how GTRE is also weak on the hot core section- whereas in the RR partnership DRDO will be incharge of the hot core- an area where they have already failed.

With RR ,we will be doing joint development , something we can't make ,they will help , on our desired specs , another point RR worked on f 136 , inlet temperature more than 2100k , so chill

 

[FalconSlayers]

With RR ,we will be doing joint development , something we can't make ,they will help , on our desired specs , another point RR worked on f 136 , inlet temperature more than 2100k , so chill

Can you share the data of The best fighter jet engines of the world in terms of overhaul time.

 

[Lonewolf]

Can you share the data of The best fighter jet engines of the world in terms of overhaul time.

Not russian or chinese .

Mist probably american , this is their forte

 

[FalconSlayers]

Not russian or chinese .

Mist probably american , this is their forte

Rolls Royce?