LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

ersakthivel

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If the aircraft increases 18% in weight and you get an 16% gain in military thrust you haven't accomplished a huge boost in performance. You have effectively taken a light aircraft and started moving it into the medium category. The only real leap in performance is using afterburner so if you take off close to MTWO, you will be using it not only on take-off but up to cruising altitude which burns so much fuel it defeats the purpose of carrying more fuel unless you meet up with a tanker.

To sum up, with afterburner it is a major leap. With military thrust it is no leap at all unless you get the aircraft weight way down.
Huge boos is not needed.

There are only minor shortfalls noticed in Tejas mk1.

like 2 deg lesser sustained turn rate, (Instantaneous turn rates, low speed handling , roll rates , negative G turns no complaint from IAF)

&

0.5 G shortfall in Gs pulled,

1.Tejas mk2 with 1 meter extra length will get a better lift to drag co efficient due to lesser wave drag,

2.The smoothening of the cross section area increase (from length = 4 to 6 meters along the fuselage for mk2 (from length = 4 to 6 meters of Tejas mk1 fuselage cross section increase is not gradual but bit spiky which results in bit more wave drag in trans sonic acceleration)

3. Increased length gives space for canards which will add to vortex generation & act as another control surface.

These 3 points will increase its close combat specs like STR, ITR, Gs pulled ,WITHOUT THE HELP OF HAVING A BETTER ENGINE THRUST TO WEIGHT RATIO.


higher engine thrust will cater to higher MTOW (which gives more fuel volume & 2 tons extra weapon load) will contribute to range & MTOW increase mainly in my opinion.

Ofcourse it will also add to agility in close combat when fighter is at half fuel load & no external stores state(I suppose GE 414 will hv 10% higher TWR than tejas mk1 in this state . )
 

Bleh

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ersakthivel

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As the recent air battle in kashmir shows, being deployed at forward bases replacing Mig21s,

Tejas will reach the combat area in less than 10 minutes,

Its far lower RCS, higher BVR range, & good WVR missile combo alone is crucial for that role in breaking up enemy formations & best laid plans like Mig21 did.

It has far better dive & climb ability plus higher turn rates & G onset rates than mig21, if it comes to dog fight.

Its lower RCS , higher BVR range & radar range gives a distinct advantage over PAF f16s , unlike Mig21.

It means tejas mk1 will be tracked & locked up by enemy radars far later at much closer ranges than any other IAF fighter,

This gives tejas better probability of tracking & locking enemy non 5th gen fighter at missile lock ranges well before enemy fighter can. A track first & shoot first advantage
 

Punya Pratap

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Hello ersakthivel, looong time buddy!!
Remeber the days when we both were trying to defend Tejas and indigenous weapons?? Seems like the story still goes on :))


As the recent air battle in kashmir shows, being deployed at forward bases replacing Mig21s,

Tejas will reach the combat area in less than 10 minutes,

Its far lower RCS, higher BVR range, & good WVR missile combo alone is crucial for that role in breaking up enemy formations & best laid plans like Mig21 did.

It has far better dive & climb ability plus higher turn rates & G onset rates than mig21, if it comes to dog fight.

Its lower RCS , higher BVR range & radar range gives a distinct advantage over PAF f16s , unlike Mig21.

It means tejas mk1 will be tracked & locked up by enemy radars far later at much closer ranges than any other IAF fighter,

This gives tejas better probability of tracking & locking enemy non 5th gen fighter at missile lock ranges well before enemy fighter can. A track first & shoot first advantage
 

ersakthivel

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Hello ersakthivel, looong time buddy!!
Remeber the days when we both were trying to defend Tejas and indigenous weapons?? Seems like the story still goes on :))
Anyway the nay sayers are close to giving up .

As IAF takes ownership of the programm Desi Dork Media can not hang its BS on retd IA F officier type pegs,:bounce::bounce:

Still there are certain @DFI_Sancho type gents not giving up on their sacred goal of dumping BS on Tejas in twitter

whenever time permits, I used to catch hold of him, under the handle of @ersakthivel1 in #Tejas_LCA hash tag.

Tragically , it was suspended after I tweeted heavily to debunk Fake rafale scam allegations.

Now I am defending Tejas with @sakthivel_cit93 handle in the same #Tejas _LCA hashtag .

but most of my tweets under the suspended handle are gone,
 
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Punya Pratap

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The naysayers are not left with much of an argument and as you rightly mentioned the IAF has itself started showing faith in the Tejas. I remember the furore AM Matheswaran caused and P2Prada and Sancho went ballistic

I guess you would remember our discussion regarding a top honcho and Pillatus as well ;)

QUOTE="ersakthivel, post: 1507356, member: 8171"]Anyway the nay sayers are close to giving up .

As IAF takes ownership of the programm Desi Dork Media can not hang its BS on retd IA F officier type pegs,:bounce::bounce:

Still there are certain @DFI_Sancho type gents not giving up on their sacred goal of dumping BS on Tejas in twitter

whenever time permits, I used to catch hold of him, under the handle of @ersakthivel1 in #Tejas_LCA hash tag.

Tragically , it was suspended after I tweeted heavily to debunk Fake rafale scam allegations.

Now I am defending Tejas with @sakthivel_cit93 handle in the same #Tejas _LCA hashtag .

but most of my tweets under the suspended handle are gone,[/QUOTE]
 

Immanuel

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91 million includes cost of missiles, armaments and India specific modifications in the aircraft
Deal signed round 24th September 2016 for 7.8 Billion EUR i.e around 8.75 Billion USD

Bare bones aircraft was 3.3 billion EUR i.e 91.6 million i.e 102 million USD

ISE, Weapons, Spares, 75% peacetime availability and Logistics (for 10 years) etc was 4.5 billion EUR

Total cost of aircraft, weapons, mods, spares and logistics for 10 years is 216 million EUR or 242 million USD

Let's not cheapen the aircraft when it clearly wasn't
 

Bleh

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Question:
IOC Tejas is doing just 180° turns in about 7sec, but doing full 360° min-radius-turn much slowly taking almost 20 sec! Why?
 

Narasimh

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Question:
IOC Tejas is doing just 180° turns in about 7sec, but doing full 360° min-radius-turn much slowly taking almost 20 sec! Why?
You read my mind sir, my question too. some articles in the past have spoken about sustained turn rate issue because of the 404 engine. It looks so nimble and agile when it starts the turn but then kinda recedes.. Vertical loops are great though.

I don't know if airshow flying and combat flying are handled differently w.r.t control systems. I remember Jaguars and Sukhois doing high speed maneuvering in the skies of Port Blair after ANC was established. But in airshows IAF Su 30s are more like ballerina dancers. Other air forces are quite aggressive in flight displays like the RMAF F-18s and Su 30s did in LIMA. IAF little paranoid for crowd safety I guess. I think only once I saw such display when our tricolored su 30 was in the aeroIndia(dont remember which year).

Tejas is definitely quite agile and smooth but we need to show some aggressive flying after FOC something like this awesome Mig 21 demo:

 

Bleh

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You read my mind sir, my question too. some articles in the past have spoken about sustained turn rate issue because of the 404 engine. It looks so nimble and agile when it starts the turn but then kinda recedes.. Vertical loops are great though.

I don't know if airshow flying and combat flying are handled differently w.r.t control systems. I remember Jaguars and Sukhois doing high speed maneuvering in the skies of Port Blair after ANC was established. But in airshows IAF Su 30s are more like ballerina dancers. Other air forces are quite aggressive in flight displays like the RMAF F-18s and Su 30s did in LIMA. IAF little paranoid for crowd safety I guess. I think only once I saw such display when our tricolored su 30 was in the aeroIndia(dont remember which year).

Tejas is definitely quite agile and smooth but we need to show some aggressive flying after FOC something like this awesome Mig 21 demo:

Tejas's manoeuvres weren't stunts but basic combat manoeuvres & performance demonstrations at various speed!

With IOC Tejas the 45th definitely can't do combat sorties... I think the Flying Daggers should be turned into a dedicated display team for Tejas!
Let them train in aggressive stunt flying for airshows.

Although IOC Tejas is limited at 8G, you do see impressive stuff from time to time...
16 sec loop at 0:33 & 7 sec 180° at 0:10:
Impressive (-)G turn at 1:55 or ones at 1:10, 3:35, 2:40, 5:50!
...they need to do that all the time!
 
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patriots

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The ioc s are certified up to 6g...
And all those manoeuvres are performed by a pilot with few hours of flight experience (compared to other fighters in iaf)
Again how could u say ioc cant do cap.......ioc and foc has only structural difference thats the ifr....if ioc can't do cap then foc can't too.......
Bdw all software releted update s of foc are already available with ioc too....and now ioc can fire derby too(rumors)
Again dhanoa said....that....
Tejas will deployed in forward area.....next year


Tejas's manoeuvres weren't stunts but basic combat manoeuvres & performance demonstrations at various speed!

With IOC Tejas the 45th definitely can't do combat sorties... I think the Flying Daggers should be turned into a dedicated display team for Tejas!
Let them train in aggressive stunt flying for airshows.

Although IOC Teams is limited at 8G, you do see impressive stuff from time to time...
...they need to do that all the time!
 
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patriots

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https://www.flightglobal.com/assets/get ... emid=76742

https://www.flightglobal.com/assets/get ... emid=76743

Group Captain Samrath Dhankhar of the Indian air force has earned a place in aviation history, as the commanding officer of its 45 Sqn (“The Flying Daggers”): the first to operate the Hindustan Aeronautics Tejas Mk1 fighter.
...........................
Ostensibly the visit was made in support of Kuala Lumpur’s nascent requirement for a light combat aircraft. Yet it also underlined India’s increased confidence to show off the locally-made fighter to the world.
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The two jets’ journey to Langkawi from an air base near the city of Coimbatore took them northwards along the subcontinent’s east coast to another base near Kolkata. Although the optimum altitude for this transit was 33,000ft, the two-ship formation flew at 27,500ft, because separation rules at this altitude are more relaxed.

After that stop, the pair flew to Yangon in Myanmar and then onwards to Langkawi. A support aircraft flew ahead of the formation to provide logistical support and to greet the fighters on their arrival. At the show, the team found itself operating from a small tent next to the flightline. This was a big change from February’s Aero India event near Bengaluru, where the same team operated from the sprawling Yelahanka air base.

Prior to operating the Tejas, Dhankhar spent most of his career in the cockpit of the Mikoyan MiG-21 "Bison"; a heavily upgraded version of the Cold War stalwart and still a major asset in the Indian air force.

“The Tejas is far better in terms of manoeuvrability, as well as the systems on board,” he says. “In every sense it is better. It is clearly demarcated as a different generation.”
....................................

Showing off this manoeuvrability was the aim of Dhankhar’s display routine, which he also performed during the Aero India show. This is designed to highlight the jet’s fly-by-wire capability through key manoeuvres such as the main radius turn and negative-g turn – the latter being rarely performed.


The Tejas Mk1 is powered by a single GE Aviation F404-IN20 engine with an afterburner. The examples operated by 45 Sqn are in the initial operational clearance (IOC) configuration. Follow-on jets will be in the final operational clearance (FOC) standard.

So far, 45 Sqn has received 12 IOC-specification aircraft, with another four to be delivered soon. Next year it will realise its full strength of 20 jets, when it receives four two-seat examples in the FOC configuration.

The main difference between the two standards is software. FOC-model aircraft will be cleared to 8g, while current IOC examples are limited to 6g. In addition, FOC aircraft will be equipped for air-to-air refuelling. Once deliveries of FOC aircraft begin, existing IOC jets will be upgraded to the enhanced configuration.
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Dhankhar is clearly pleased with the Tejas. He praises its agility and says the type's g onset rates are “very comfortable”. He also believes that the type's control laws have been well implemented.

“It responds to your inputs in the entire envelope very well,” he says. “It's not as if you need to be at certain speeds to get the maximum out of it. At any speed it gives you whatever you demand.”

He also appreciates the safety factors built into the jet, in that it is impossible to depart from the approved flight envelope limits. This makes the aircraft “very, very safe,” he says. “This is a very positive thing, but at the same time this can be marginally negative because at times, if I would like to exceed the aircraft’s limits, I can't do that,” he adds.
...............................
On the aircraft’s human-machine interface, he feels that everything is exactly where a pilot will expect to find it, with an intuitive layout that eases cockpit familiarisation. Apart from the master arm switch, virtually everything necessary to operate the aircraft is located on the throttle or control column, in line with modern hands on throttle and stick design methodology.

Although Dhankhar’s aerial display, performed with white smoke trailing from wing-mounted pods, was as powerful as any modern fighter performance, he stresses that air shows are not his main line of work.

“My primary job is to exploit the aircraft operationally. Displays as such are a side role for me. If it is required I'll do it, but otherwise the OEM does it on its own… I'm not a display specialist, but I'm capable of doing it,” he says.”
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As an example of this operational focus, Dhankhar notes that he has had the opportunity to fire or drop every weapon the Tejas has been cleared to carry: both air-to-air and ground-attack munitions. He feels the accuracy is excellent, and that the HMI makes it very easy to employ all weapons across the envelope. He believes that the Tejas’s helmet-mounted cueing system, which allows the pilot to target weapons without pointing the aircraft's nose at the target, offers far greater freedom than the MiG-21, and is “much more advanced as compared with the Su-30”.
.............................

“There are situations where you need the g,” he says. “Most of the time you can rely on sensors and BVR weapons, and you do not need to engage in close combat. But you should not be a sitting duck in case somebody closes in for some reason. Merges do take place despite whatever type of sensors you have. There are times when the criticality of the mission is high, and you need to take certain risks. In those missions you tend to go further, and the merges take place. If you are capable in terms of pulling more g, you may turn these situations to your advantage. That is what I feel as a fighter pilot.”
...................................

Dhankhar says the gun has limited utility in air-to-air combat and is primarily useful for engaging soft targets that may pop up. He notes that there is no mission in which the gun is designated as the aircraft’s primary weapon.

“Most of the crosses that take place in aerial combat are through the frontal. Because it is difficult to launch weapons when somebody is head on, if you give a burst with the gun you might get one hit. Today's army guys still carry a bayonet. The gun is just like that: an aerial bayonet. Missiles have a minimum range. Less than that and the gun is the only option.”

..................................
“Because of the jet’s architecture it’s very easy to upgrade,” says Dhankhar. “Having flown this aircraft, I can say it has a great future.”
 

patriots

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And this from brf

One couldn't do 21 second loops with 6 G restriction.

As I have said earlier, and I repeat it. The aircraft has been flown at 8.5Gs a few times now. It is not a priority item, but it will eventually get cleared for all operational aircraft




.....bdw.. Ioc is cleared for 6g...same as bison
 

Bleh

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The ioc s are certified up to 6g......
There you go...
And all those manoeuvres are performed by a pilot with few hours of flight experience (compared to other fighters in iaf)

Again how could u say ioc cant do cap.......ioc and foc has only structural difference thats the ifr....if ioc can't do cap then foc can't too.......
Bdw all software releted update s of foc are already available with ioc too....and now ioc can fire derby too(rumors)
Again dhanoa said....that....
Tejas will deployed in forward area.....next year
My personal opinion based on what i know;
FOC have updated software, BVR capabilities, A2A Refuelling, FOC earmarked A2G weapons delivery, & flight envelope expansion to 8.5G. Some of them are reasonably important that'll hamper is combat capability otherwise, not to mention it'd still lack jammer & IRST. Sure, IOC can be very effective in strike missions with fighter escorts like Mirage-2000 in Kargil, but won't be my 1st choice for CAP.

And, many countries have dedicated airshow specialist display team for promoting their fighter jets. And our Tejas could definitely use one too.

Look-up Mirage-2000C manoeuvres from French solo display team on YouTube... Not a single loop or 180°+ turn, but aggressive short & stalling manoeuvres!
The solo display team had some fantastic pilots!
If Tejas can do 7sec turn &16sec loop, learn to flaunt it! Don't do it just once!!!
And the 45th newly equipped with IOC Tejas should be the 1st choice! That's what I'm saying....

Tejas Mk1A is to have induction in 2023. FOC Tejas delivery to be completed by 2020-21 fiscal & IAF is likely to get more than just 1 squadron, or lines sit idle for 2 years!
 
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