LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[WARREN SS]

Any idea how capable are the R27 ET1/ER1 that India bought and the R 77-1.

Is Derby ER better?

They are outdated even by astra mark 1 standards
There seeker is 15 years old

 

[Bleh]

A fighter looking to shoot down another one with WVR or BVR doesn't need to drop tanks . Tanks are rated to their corresponding G's especially supersonic tanks. Considerable maneuvering can be done with supersonic tanks attached, upto the G load to which the tanks and connectors are rated to.

Tanks are dropped when the aircraft needs to enter high Gs close to its airframe rated limits ( and that is obviously beyond the tanks G load ) inorder to evade incomming missiles or is forced into a dog fighter which requires him to pull high G's close to the airframes G limit. Even than a aircraft can retain the tanks without resorting to high G's if the pilot resorts to terrain masking or maneuvers into the radar notch , provided the situation/conditions so allows.

I don't know man... Every pilot I've read of or heard on YouTube says of jettisoning payload immediately, be it supersonic tanks or HSLD bombs. It's not just G limition but any extra load will invariably increase moment of inertia & drastically decrease roll-rate & turn rate. Not to mention the rapid energy bleeding from additional drag.

But yes, some video & photos too exist. That's why I called it shady. Whatever happened that day is logically pretty confusing to me.

 

[Shashank Nayak]

Do the 248 Astras to be delivered have Indian seeker ?

 

[LondonParisTokyo]

Why just settle for Derby-ER? Meteor is an absolute necessity for LCA. Lets go for that instead.

I despise this level of thinking amongst Indians. "Abc is the best. Why should we make our own if we can just get the best on the market?"

Tejas should be armed with Astra. It's not the Meteor, but it's homemade. By placing orders in Astra, you are supporting your own ecosystem. Incrementally, it will improve, improve, people will want it to be better and better. Eventually, it will be at the level of the Meteor with technology, made in-house, on the way. There will also be a newly educated workforce on THAT system, that can train others in that same school. You go from 1 to 2, 2 to 4, 4 to 8, 8 to 16 and eventually 16^2 people who can do a certain job by doing things in-house and at home!

 

[LondonParisTokyo]

Do the 248 Astras to be delivered have Indian seeker ?

I believe Astra MK1 does not have an Indian seeker however the development team has since made an indigenous seeker which they are hoping to integrate into Astra. Astra should be the primary weapon arming Indian jets! Not Derby, not Meteor, not R-77 and other nonsense, Astra!

 

[Bleh]

I believe Astra MK1 does not have an Indian seeker however the development team has since made an indigenous seeker

Dude. If you don't know for sure, better don't reply incorrectly.

Do the 248 Astras to be delivered have Indian seeker ?

Russian Agat 9B1103M active radar seeker (locally built) was used on Astra at prototype stage. It had long been replaced with an Indian Ku-band seeker developed by the DRDO’s RCI(what's the full form?), Hyderabad. 248 final operational versions entering service will have Indian seeker.

 

[LondonParisTokyo]

Dude. If you don't know for sure, better don't reply incorrectly.



Russian Agat 9B1103M active radar seeker (locally built) was used on Astra at prototype stage. It had long been replaced with an Indian Ku-band seeker developed by the DRDO’s RCI(what's the full form?), Hyderabad. 248 final operational versions entering service will have Indian seeker.

Respect

 

[Flying Dagger]

These are not the latest russian missiles. Russia have K-74M2 and the new K-77 missile as nxt gen replacement and are much better than the legacy missiles we bought.

R-27 T IR version similar to R-73 with range advantage <40/60 km .

R-73 is for CCM like Python while R-27 T is near BVR like ASRAAM or MICA IR.

R-27 active radar homing ( not sure which one we bought ) ER 130 km or EM 160-170km range version .

R-77-1 is newer and have better performance - range 110 km though another version with with greater range is also available.

Derby ER is a much better missile in terms of shelf life and a gen ahead than R-77-1 their official brochure says 100 km + range but it is equivalent of 120 D ( 160-180 + ) so 160 + is likely or atleast 130+ .

The IR missile from Israel is called Python with range 30 km+ a R-73 equivalent. Though it might be 40 km as they often curtail the range of their missiles in open like Derby on Tejas have range 70+ km around but is 50 km on brochures.

Regarding performance Python (90 degree offbore sight ) is generations or two generation ahead than R-73. (60 degree offbore sight)

Both Israeli Missile Derby and Python provide Lock on before and after launch capability.

Overall a much better option.

Any idea how capable are the R27 ET1/ER1 that India bought and the R 77-1.

Is Derby ER better?

 

[Flying Dagger]

The moment a radar guided missile is fired at Dmax , it is a waste. The very reason why it is termed as " mad dog " launch.

That launch was perhaps strategic to keep Su busy and out of its pursuit.

They did saved themselves by doing so.

In any case it must be called Mad Pork launch

 

[Shekhar Singh]

Great opportunity for comparison ruined by some retard... Couldn't even align the two videos with Tejas one starting at 2-3 second (about 30° angle) lag. Anybody has the video editing skill to download & fix the mismatch?

Nonetheless the rate of turn is absolutely same in this case.


Not only unauthorised, but too costly... A full BVR armament load would cost a much as the whole Tejas jet.

I have replied the same in tweet.

 

[Bleh]

I have replied the same in tweet.

Here's a proper video... Maker claims in comments that no speed modifications was done.
These stuff don't mean anything though. Too many variables but still Tejas & Gripen has surprisingly similar turn rates.

 

[patriots]

Bdw Nambiar sir in twitter says astra is second best to meteor
Again some falsehood s are peddling in media

Tejas ioc is not very different to foc
1.Tejas ioc is now bvr capable
2.tejas ioc can have tandem Pylon (if iaf wants)
3.tejas ioc is now capable of +8g(it was barred by FCS before)
4.tejas ioc can carry Centerline drop tank,and and a bomb in Centerline Pylon (already tested with lsp,and cleared for foc,again can be done ,or already done)

Also I have other details... waiting for the gun trial.

 

[The Maverick]

Bdw Nambiar sir in twitter says astra is second best to meteor
Again some falsehood s are peddling in media

Tejas ioc is not very different to foc
1.Tejas ioc is now bvr capable
2.tejas ioc can have tandem Pylon (if iaf wants)
3.tejas ioc is now capable of +8g(it was barred by FCS before)
4.tejas ioc can carry Centerline drop tank,and and a bomb in Centerline Pylon (already tested with lsp,and cleared for foc,again can be done ,or already done)

Also I have other details... waiting for the gun trial.

I am pleased we are mixing up bvr technology in our air power would love to know how we rank derby v Astra v Russian r77 and r27 new versions.
I know the French bvr is very capable

 

[patriots]

I am pleased we are mixing up bvr technology in our air power would love to know how we rank derby v Astra v Russian r77 and r27 new versions.
I know the French bvr is very capable

Bdw wrt range
1.meteor.
2. Astra
3. R77 & R27
4. Mica
5. Derby

But in performance meteor ,mica and astra will be good...
Sameer Joshi an ex iaf pilot and now an author has said that jf17 ran away after seeing mirage 2000 with mica
Already hvtiaf and Nambiar sir said that astra in 2nd to meteor ...so definitely it's better than r77
For more refer our bvr thread here

 

[Ultramarine]

Problem with Russian missiles is serviceability and maintenance .

Indian procurement is crap they imported Soviet era missiles from multiple countries in different batches. Hence the imported stocks had lot of problems. Plus no thought was given to invest in supporting the testing , servicing and maintenance of the stocks.

Missing a flare is not that of a problem because the proximity detonation mechanism fails to be initiated by a very small sized target .

Target drones generally tow a flare so the reason to fail to detonate could be the same as above.

Western missiles of corresponding generation too will have the same problems more or less.

But all said and done this cannot be used as a excuse . Every weapon needs to be upgraded to retain its viability.

And than the said F16 was a poor bait lol because I remember seeing a video on twitter with the Mig 21 chasing the F16 at almost tree top heights.

The reason why the mig 21 got hit was because

His wing man was missing from the fight , nobody was there to cover his tail. While the F16 has cover from multiple F16s in the periphery.

The Mig 21 ended right among the enemies , IMO he should have broken off as nobody was there to cover him . Atleast 4 indian fighters should have entered the fight to make a good show .

IAF was it fault , it was out witted by PAF tactically .

Indian military mindset of senior officers is like that of a donkey , they always follow the trodden path . No capacity or will to innovate . ( Except for navy to some extent ) . This can still be seen in their British era mindset in the name of pig shit traditions , which they are yet to loose even after 70 years of independence.

Bro, with respect to the wingman, he and Wg. cdr Varthaman were asked to return back as they were heading into territory which was held by a numerically stronger adversary. Our lack of secure communication on mig-21's as well as the enemy jamming led to Varthaman's mig-21 not able to hear this command while the other pilot did. The other pilot had another missile fired at him which missed him as his was a receding target.

Yes, no two opinions about some rigid traditions and that we have managed to tie us spectacularly into knots wrt broken procurement policies.

As an aside and offtopic, one of the Pakistani F-16's panicked after the Sukhoi's stayed put with the mirages holding their own. He reported issues with oxygen and called it a day. They were also terrified of the Mirages and did there best to keep away from it.
The fact that they had to send their best, the F-16's at the Sukhoi's, rippling off AMRAAM's at the two planes, SOP's be damned tells us something about the Sukhois'. Multiple 16's Vs 2 MKI's. Multiple launches at the MKI's. The MKI pilots dodge it, go hot, go cold and still remain in the air while reinforcements come in, with the single minded focus on preventing the enemy strike force from their objectives tells so many things, notably fire discipline. Despite being numerically inferior in that sector, we were not rippling off our R-77's. What is left unsaid is even if we had fired them off like the pakistanis have, there would have been nothing to show off.

So yes, while the IAF could have been better placed with the timely introduction of secure comms, the PAF did not cover itself in glory either.
Panicked pilots launching off missiles, heading back home on first confrontation, launching guided munitions from afar and then desperately breaking off contact after being detected and consequently breaking off the guidance of their first generation SOW.

Things would have been interesting had their been casualties on our side on the ground. There would have been many a pakistani myths busted.

 

[Chinmoy]

I despise this level of thinking amongst Indians. "Abc is the best. Why should we make our own if we can just get the best on the market?"

Tejas should be armed with Astra. It's not the Meteor, but it's homemade. By placing orders in Astra, you are supporting your own ecosystem. Incrementally, it will improve, improve, people will want it to be better and better. Eventually, it will be at the level of the Meteor with technology, made in-house, on the way. There will also be a newly educated workforce on THAT system, that can train others in that same school. You go from 1 to 2, 2 to 4, 4 to 8, 8 to 16 and eventually 16^2 people who can do a certain job by doing things in-house and at home!

BTW I made that comment out of sarcasm.

 

[johnq]

Here's a proper video... Maker claims in comments that no speed modifications was done.
These stuff don't mean anything though. Too many variables but still Tejas & Gripen has surprisingly similar turn rates.

Gripen has had crashes due to flight software issues. The Tejas would probably turn slightly better at high altitude due to its lower wing loading.

 

[Chinmoy]

Meteor won't come to IAF other than on Rafale, Its banned by company to integrate into other platforms

Thanks for info.

 

[Shashank Nayak]

Dude. If you don't know for sure, better don't reply incorrectly.



Russian Agat 9B1103M active radar seeker (locally built) was used on Astra at prototype stage. In the final operational versions entering serbice it had been replaced with an Indian Ku-band seeker developed by the DRDO’s RCI(what's the full form?), Hyderabad.

Research Center Imarat..
Any idea whether Cannons are installed on IOC Tejas?

 

[Bleh]

Any idea whether Cannons are installed on IOC Tejas?

Maybe. I don't have any info on that right now.