LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[Super lca]

Updates on MWF.

It will have frontal stealth and will have some 5.5 generation technologies.

But the design doesn't say so

 

[patriots]

Hvt sir already said asraam doesn't need radar mating so........
Can be integrated...
Asraam already integrated with jaguar

 

[HariPrasad-1]

From where this update came,all everyone knows is the metal cutting going to be started soon...

Will update about this very soon. I have been saying this for a long time. Atleast, we need to have frontal stealth if we are making some plane which are going to be operational post 2025 to make it sure that they remain relevant for couple of more decades.

 

[patriots]

Will update about this very soon. I have been saying this for a long time. Atleast, we need to have frontal stealth if we are making some plane which are going to be operational post 2025 to make it sure that they remain relevant for couple of more decades.

5.5 gen technology?

 

[IndianHawk]

ASRAAM is not a dual sensor missile, initial cueing w.r.t target vector may be provided with the help of RADAR, (anyway, this information is available to HMDS on pilot's visor) but it uses Imaging IR seeker (IIR) for acquiring target. It's fire and forget type of missile unlike Semi-active or Active seeker missiles in Intermediate to BVR range AAMs which requires host RADAR to either continuously paint the target or provide mid course correction to its trajectory.

So, integration of ASRAAM to Tejas is not bogged down by obstacles in RADAR integration IMO.

It can be integrated without radar but it's full potential won't be exploited then.

 

[IndianHawk]

5.5 gen technology?

Drone swarm control . Unmanned wingman control just like lca sport concept.

 

[IndianHawk]

Will update about this very soon. I have been saying this for a long time. Atleast, we need to have frontal stealth if we are making some plane which are going to be operational post 2025 to make it sure that they remain relevant for couple of more decades.

Dsi intakes , saw tooth joining of radome. And some sort of shaping of frontier portion??

 

[Bleh]

Tejas square loop at Bahrain or Aero India 2017.

Rare case of Tejas with a homogeneous paint scheme.

But the design doesn't say so

Comparable to F-18SH or F-15EX. Not fully stealthy, but RAM, material etc. from AMCA. You'll find details in MWF thread.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

5.5 gen technology?

Yes.....................................................

 

[Chinmoy]

CCM replacement is relatively easier than BVR missile. The CCM doesn't need mating to the host aircraft's RADAR for mid-course update. However, some work needs to be done to link CCM to HMDS cueing system. So, Tejas has plenty of options to choose in CCM category but for BVR AAMs , they opted for easiest option i.e. mating an Israeli BVR AAM (salvaged from Harrier fleet) with Israeli RADAR on the IOC Tejas. So far no testing of R-77/R-27 integration has been planned with Tejas. It appears that they are going slow on AAM integration front ; Even for CCMs , which is a low hanging fruit, they could have easily integrated & tested existing ASRAAMs on Tejas .

It has been clear that the Tejas will be inducted in numbers (Even 40+83 aircraft are not a small fleet), it's prudent for HAL to come out with the proposed weapon suite for upcoming version. It will greatly help in sales pitch plus it will also attract missile giants like MBDA to invest in local facilities for production. AFAIK, there is no testing carried out for AAMs other than R-73 and Derby.

For engine part, GE 404IN is the engine selected for Mk1A.

View attachment 49669
Image Courtesy: DDR Tejas Mk1A (http://delhidefencereview.com/2017/...s-a-superior-option-for-the-indian-air-force/)

I am not talking about soft integration here. Tejas gives us the ability of soft integrating any weapon of our choice provided we receive the source code for the same. I am talking about hard integration of the weapon itself. There are certain challenges to integrate few of the weapon system physically in Tejas. Example Python. R-73 was not even the first choice for Tejas. Designers wanted a complete Israeli package of Python and Derby to go with Tejas. But because of the integration issue with Python, which were observed in Taxi as well as captive flight trial, we opted for R-73.

https://www.reliableplant.com/Read/26841/India-GE-engines-jet

Do you think India ordered these numbers for a plane which is yet on paper?

@Steven Rogers @Bleh

 

[Bleh]

I am not talking about soft integration here. Tejas gives us the ability of soft integrating any weapon of our choice provided we receive the source code for the same. I am talking about hard integration of the weapon itself. There are certain challenges to integrate few of the weapon system physically in Tejas. Example Python. R-73 was not even the first choice for Tejas. Designers wanted a complete Israeli package of Python and Derby to go with Tejas. But because of the integration issue with Python, which were observed in Taxi as well as captive flight trial, we opted for R-73.

https://www.reliableplant.com/Read/26841/India-GE-engines-jet

Do you think India ordered these numbers for a plane which is yet on paper?

@Steven Rogers @Bleh

Deal was signed by 2013, for 8 engines off-the-shelf, & 91 built under ToT + 49 more later.

We have received delivery of the 8, i read somewhere. Rest is on hold I think.

 

[Chinmoy]

Deal was signed by 2013, for 8 engines off-the-shelf, & 91 built under ToT + 49 more later.

We have received delivery of the 8, i read somewhere. Rest is on hold I think.

Yes. That deal was for 414, not 404. We have a total 42 nos of 404 as of now as far as my knowledge goes which would go into 32 planes and LSPs. I have not yet came across any further deal for 404.
IAF was more interested in Mk2 variant with 414s. HAL came up with an intermediate solution of Mk1A which would be equipped with 414. Mk2 as of now would be a twin engined MWF rather then single engine LCA.

 

[piKacHHu]

I am not talking about soft integration here. Tejas gives us the ability of soft integrating any weapon of our choice provided we receive the source code for the same. I am talking about hard integration of the weapon itself. There are certain challenges to integrate few of the weapon system physically in Tejas. Example Python. R-73 was not even the first choice for Tejas. Designers wanted a complete Israeli package of Python and Derby to go with Tejas. But because of the integration issue with Python, which were observed in Taxi as well as captive flight trial, we opted for R-73.

https://www.reliableplant.com/Read/26841/India-GE-engines-jet

Do you think India ordered these numbers for a plane which is yet on paper?

@Steven Rogers @Bleh

Excerpt from the article cited by you:

"Ninety-nine of GE’s F414 afterburning engines and kits have been ordered to power the Mk II version of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft for the Indian Air Force. "

The article itself has referred old news of 2010-2013 time-span; e.g.

India picks US engines over European for Tejas | India News - Times of India

India News: The defence ministry on Thursday announced General Electric's F-414 engines have been selected over its rival Eurojet Turbo GmbH's EJ-200 engines, aft

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

In fact, the whole article is silent on the signing of contract and its specifics. It's just quoting the expected numbers for cost, etc.

MkIA has evolved as a spin-off of Tejas FOC in 2015, perhaps the time at which Manohar Parrikar was RM. AFAIK, he shoved the Tejas down to IAF throat despite its resistance; yet some compromises was made between HAL & IAF which led to augmented version of FOC to a new avatar i.e. Mk1A.

Could you explain in more details about Hard & Soft Integration of CCM ?

 

[Bleh]

HAL came up with an intermediate solution of Mk1A which would be equipped with 414. Mk2 as of now would be a twin engined MWF rather then single engine LCA.

What are you talking about??!!!

Mate you've mixed it up... Mark1A is an upgraded & more maintenance friendly Mark1 with upgraded avionics, standardised LRU & modified wirings. May or may not get some weight reduced & minor aerodynamic improvements.

Someone actually asked HVT on Twitter whether the old Mark2 with F414 & 50cm fuselage plug can be used as Mark1A platform... He said no. The elongation generated a huge amount of extra drag that even F414 could not compensate.

Mark2 which was being called MWF for sone time is the canarded F414 powered jet.
The twin F414 powered one is the ORCA/TEDBF... Maybe it will get the MWF tagmin future.

Excerpt from the article cited by you:

"Ninety-nine of GE’s F414 afterburning engines and kits have been ordered to power the Mk II version of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft for the Indian Air Force. "

The article itself has referred very old news of 2010-2013 era; e.g.

India picks US engines over European for Tejas | India News - Times of India

India News: The defence ministry on Thursday announced General Electric's F-414 engines have been selected over its rival Eurojet Turbo GmbH's EJ-200 engines, aft

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

MkIA has evolved as a spin-off of Tejas FOC in 2015, perhaps the time at which Manohar Parrikar was RM. AFAIK, he shoved the Tejas down to IAF throat despite its resistance; yet some compromises was made between HAL & IAF which led to augmented version of FOC to a new avatar i.e. Mk1A.

Could you explain in more details about Hard & Soft Integration of CCM ?

We haven't heard anything about the delivery of that. The local manufacturing under ToT is definitely not happening.

 

[fire starter]

some updates about unmanned tejas.

 

[Chinmoy]

Excerpt from the article cited by you:

"Ninety-nine of GE’s F414 afterburning engines and kits have been ordered to power the Mk II version of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft for the Indian Air Force. "

The article itself has referred old news of 2010-2013 time-span; e.g.

India picks US engines over European for Tejas | India News - Times of India

India News: The defence ministry on Thursday announced General Electric's F-414 engines have been selected over its rival Eurojet Turbo GmbH's EJ-200 engines, aft

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

In fact, the whole article is silent on the signing of contract and its specifics. It's just quoting the expected numbers for cost, etc.

MkIA has evolved as a spin-off of Tejas FOC in 2015, perhaps the time at which Manohar Parrikar was RM. AFAIK, he shoved the Tejas down to IAF throat despite its resistance; yet some compromises was made between HAL & IAF which led to augmented version of FOC to a new avatar i.e. Mk1A.

Could you explain in more details about Hard & Soft Integration of CCM ?

Yes. It is for Mk2 which is now MWF with a completely new design. Now in 2013 when LCA MK2 was proposed, it was proposed with a higher thrust engine & this deal of 99 was signed keeping in mind the number 83 which IAF flouted.
But now the 83 nos would be Mk1A instead which is the FOC standard. So could you find any detail of further 404 deal? Because the numbers of 404 we have would be exhausted after the last jet of 2nd Sqd.

Coming on hard & soft integration of weapons, before you decide on which missile or bomb to be used in a fighter, you have to study its effect on the platform. You have to be able to carry the weapon first before firing it. That is the hard integration part. In case of Python it was found that integrating the missile caused unwanted vibration in the plane during taxi trial & captive flight trial. So it has to be dropped for R-73.

 

[Chinmoy]

What are you talking about??!!!

Mate you've mixed it up... Mark1A is an upgraded & more maintenance friendly Mark1 with upgraded avionics, standardised LRU & modified wirings. May or may not get some weight reduced & minor aerodynamic improvements.

Someone actually asked HVT on Twitter whether the old Mark2 with F414 & 50cm fuselage plug can be used as Mark1A platform... He said no. The elongation generated a huge amount of extra drag that even F414 could not compensate.

Mark2 which was being called MWF for sone time is the canarded F414 powered jet.
The twin F414 powered one is the ORCA/TEDBF... Maybe it will get the MWF tagmin future.

We haven't heard anything about the delivery of that. The local manufacturing under ToT is definitely not happening.

Is it so?
Ok let's assume that Mk2 would be a single engine jet because it has been presented like that by HAL. Again I am saying let's ASSUME as I for all reason don't want to derail the thread. (You could DM me if you want). Then why on earth in 2013 HAL had gone for 414? Because now IAF will sign deal for 83 Mk1A. What engine will these have? If it will have 404 engines, why HAL is not going forward for any more deal on 404?

As for HVT saying on longer 414 engine, have you cross checked the physical dimension of both 404 & 414 in GE brochure?

 

[IndianHawk]

Because now IAF will sign deal for 83 Mk1A. What engine will these have? If it will have 404 engines, why HAL is not going forward for any more deal on 404?

Hal will sign deal for 83 f404 as soon as deal for 83 mk1a is signed .

F414 is drop fit for f404 but need bigger air intake that means substantial redesign. This is why mk2 was changed to mwf as it would anyway take a lot of work and mk1a born as an intermediate solution.

 

[Steven Rogers]

I am not talking about soft integration here. Tejas gives us the ability of soft integrating any weapon of our choice provided we receive the source code for the same. I am talking about hard integration of the weapon itself. There are certain challenges to integrate few of the weapon system physically in Tejas. Example Python. R-73 was not even the first choice for Tejas. Designers wanted a complete Israeli package of Python and Derby to go with Tejas. But because of the integration issue with Python, which were observed in Taxi as well as captive flight trial, we opted for R-73.

https://www.reliableplant.com/Read/26841/India-GE-engines-jet

Do you think India ordered these numbers for a plane which is yet on paper?

@Steven Rogers @Bleh

Out of those ordered how many has been recieved ....

 

[Chinmoy]

Hal will sign deal for 83 f404 as soon as deal for 83 mk1a is signed .

F414 is drop fit for f404 but need bigger air intake that means substantial redesign. This is why mk2 was changed to mwf as it would anyway take a lot of work and mk1a born as an intermediate solution.

Then someone slap hard HAL hard for carrying out deals out of thin air. 7 years ago they signed a engine deal for a plane which has not been ordered. But anyway, as I said that I don't want to derail the thread.