LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[Chinmoy]

Out of those ordered how many has been recieved ....

As per what I know, 6. More to arrive based on order.

 

[IndianHawk]

Then someone slap hard HAL hard for carrying out deals out of thin air. 7 years ago they signed a engine deal for a plane which has not been ordered. But anyway, as I said that I don't want to derail the thread.

What are you getting it. Are mk1a getting f414??

 

[Chinmoy]

Hal will sign deal for 83 f404 as soon as deal for 83 mk1a is signed .

F414 is drop fit for f404 but need bigger air intake that means substantial redesign. This is why mk2 was changed to mwf as it would anyway take a lot of work and mk1a born as an intermediate solution.

BTW changes in intake has been done in LCA to accommodate 414. If I remember, HAL chief already confirmed on it that with engine change we don't need to change the air intake.
I'd look for the interview.

 

[airtel]

What are you getting it. Are mk1a getting f414??

No

Then someone slap hard HAL hard for carrying out deals out of thin air. 7 years ago they signed a engine deal for a plane which has not been ordered. But anyway, as I said that I don't want to derail the thread.

all the mordern fighter jets are developed on the basis of jet engine .
So it was a logical decision to order engines First and then make a plane according to it .
How they are supposed to make air intake and other things of Amca , orca , mwf without studying various aspects of engine?

2nd reason our scientist would learn a lot from ge414 design and which would be useful in development of Indian engine .
( Just like China copied American engines )

 

[Chinmoy]

No




all the mordern fighter jets are developed on the basis of jet engine .
So it was the logical decision to order engines First and then make a plane according to it .
How they are supposed to make sure intake and other things of Amca , orca , mwf ?

2nd reason our scientist would learn a lot from gr414 design and which would be useful in development of Indian engine .
( Just like China copied American engines )

Ok. For that you need to sign a deal for 99 engines?

 

[airtel]

Ok. For that you need to sign a deal for 99 engines?

Why not ? India is developing atleast 4 new types of jet fighters ( and maybe More
)
They have to make various planes for testing purposes and then LSP , ioc , foc etc .
Buying in large quantity would be cheaper.

In the last 7 years price have been increased .
And general electrics is supplying those engines in batches ...

 

[Chinmoy]

Why not ? India is developing atleast 4 new types of jet fighters ( and maybe More
)
They have to make various planes for testing purposes and then LSP , ioc , foc etc .
Buying in large quantity would be cheaper.

In the last 7 years price have been increased .
And general electrics is supplying those engines in batches ...

Apart from Mk2, only AMCA was there in 2013. So is there any way for you to justify the number for which deal was signed?

TEDBF, ORCA, MWF all came recently.

 

[Bleh]

Then why on earth in 2013 HAL had gone for 414? Because now IAF will sign deal for 83 Mk1A. What engine will these have? If it will have 404 engines, why HAL is not going forward for any more deal on 404?

F414 is drop fit for f404 but need bigger air intake that means substantial redesign.

Let's indulge his points for a bit.

We have both F414 rear fuselage & air intake already designed for Mark2. Enough commonality exists for a copy-paste. Same as wing-tip pylons or bulged spine (refering DDR article).
We did prematurely(?) order a bunch of F414 but have not placed any F404 follow on orders, while we dont have more than a dozen in store either. Although we could order in 2021 & still ensure continuous steady supply by mid-2022.
F414 would fit in the fuselage, but will...

1. shift its CG slightly behind (only 50kg weight diff. tho)
2. considerably increase the fuel consumption

...both would create drastic changes in behaviour. Performance & payload will doubtlessly increase, but range may fall below 350km.

That would require the 50cm fuselage plug in front to carry extra fuel, which again takes us back to the same old pre-2015 Mark2 design, that was set aside due to disproportionate drag increase... Or it could rely on new bigger fuel tanks meant for MWF, which it can now carry !


Yeah, I'm so confused right now. But not very convinced.

 

[IndianHawk]

Apart from Mk2, only AMCA was there in 2013. So is there any way for you to justify the number for which deal was signed?

TEDBF, ORCA, MWF all came recently.

Deal in 2013 was for 99 f414. mk2 back then was about same dimensions as lca mk1 with just slightly bigger air intakes for extra airflow and bit more space for internal ew. So that was all for mk2.

 

[aerokan]

Let's indulge his points for a bit.

We have both F414 rear fuselage & air intake already designed for Mark2. Enough commonality exists for a copy-paste. Same as wing-tip pylons or bulged spine (refering DDR article).
We did prematurely(?) order a bunch of F414 but have not placed any F404 follow on orders, while we dont have more than a dozen in store either. Although we could order in 2021 & still ensure continuous steady supply by mid-2022.
F414 would fit in the fuselage, but will...

1. shift its CG slightly behind (only 50kg weight diff. tho)
2. considerably increase the fuel consumption

...both would create drastic changes in behaviour. Performance & payload will doubtlessly increase, but range may fall below 350km.

That would require the 50cm fuselage plug in front to carry extra fuel, which again takes us back to the same old pre-2015 Mark2 design, that was set aside due to disproportionate drag increase... Or it could rely on new bigger fuel tanks meant for MWF, which it can now carry !


Yeah, I'm so confused right now. But not very convinced.

If you look at the original induction timelines, it makes sense to order 99 of them that early. But since it got dragged again and again repeatedly due to change of IAF ASQR's and their full fledged efforts not to induct Tejas.. we are wondering now why they were ordered that early and did nothing about it.

F414 should be the same dimensions and if i remember correctly, they had plans then to tweak the airframe a bit to reduce the drag to compensate for the range loss with the newer engine. But now after so many changes, it might have already been incorporated and we are no wiser.

Once again this order was at the time when everyone is talking about how underpowered Tejas is (reality or not). So it made sense to order F414 for old MK1/MK2.

F414 fuel efficiency is increased over F404.

Range just 350km?

Also i am not sure if the air intake problem that everybody talks is still a thing? Wondering if that issue is ever fully resolved. I still haven't seen a confirmation on it yet.

 

[Bleh]

If you look at the original induction timelines, it makes sense to order 99 of them that early. But since it got dragged again and again repeatedly due to change of IAF ASQR's and their full fledged efforts not to induct Tejas.. we are wondering now why they were ordered that early and did nothing about it.

F414 should be the same dimensions and if i remember correctly, they had plans then to tweak the airframe a bit to reduce the drag to compensate for the range loss with the newer engine. But now after so many changes, it might have already been incorporated and we are no wiser.

Once again this order was at the time when everyone is talking about how underpowered Tejas is (reality or not). So it made sense to order F414 for old MK1/MK2.

F414 fuel efficiency is increased over F404.

Range just 350km?

Also i am not sure if the air intake problem that everybody talks is still a thing? Wondering if that issue is ever fully resolved. I still haven't seen a confirmation on it yet.

The main factor to be considered is that no change had been made in last 7 years even after Mark2 was delayed for MWF & Mark1A... They could easily alter the gathering-dust-for-5-years deal to get 99 additional F404 instead.

Keeping that fact in mind, if the Yanks could tweak the F414 a bit to reduce its weight by 50kg, it would fit seamlessly... same has been done for AL-31 of J-10.
Thrust (installed) increase of 10kN would dramatically improve the performance of Tejas.
Required air intakes can be copy/pasted from Mark2, while increased fuel requirement can be handled by the new 1360lt wing & 800lt centerline drop-tanks. The enhanced lift will allow carrying those.

Slim chances for something that drastic, but the chance is exists. @Chinmoy hasn't replied to the DM yet.

 

[patriots]

I am not talking about soft integration here. Tejas gives us the ability of soft integrating any weapon of our choice provided we receive the source code for the same. I am talking about hard integration of the weapon itself. There are certain challenges to integrate few of the weapon system physically in Tejas. Example Python. R-73 was not even the first choice for Tejas. Designers wanted a complete Israeli package of Python and Derby to go with Tejas. But because of the integration issue with Python, which were observed in Taxi as well as captive flight trial, we opted for R-73.

https://www.reliableplant.com/Read/26841/India-GE-engines-jet

Do you think India ordered these numbers for a plane which is yet on paper?

@Steven Rogers @Bleh

@Porky

If you look at the original induction timelines, it makes sense to order 99 of them that early. But since it got dragged again and again repeatedly due to change of IAF ASQR's and their full fledged efforts not to induct Tejas.. we are wondering now why they were ordered that early and did nothing about it.

F414 should be the same dimensions and if i remember correctly, they had plans then to tweak the airframe a bit to reduce the drag to compensate for the range loss with the newer engine. But now after so many changes, it might have already been incorporated and we are no wiser.

Once again this order was at the time when everyone is talking about how underpowered Tejas is (reality or not). So it made sense to order F414 for old MK1/MK2.

F414 fuel efficiency is increased over F404.

Range just 350km?

Also i am not sure if the air intake problem that everybody talks is still a thing? Wondering if that issue is ever fully resolved. I still haven't seen a confirmation on it yet.

Ya air intake of Tejas is a problem,that's why auxiliary intake is planned for mk1a
And after several discussion it was decided not to put f414 in mk1a

 

[aerokan]

The main factor to be considered is that no change had been made in ladt 7 years even after Mark2 was delayed MWF & Mark1A... They could easily alter the gathering-dust-for-5-years deal to get 99 additional F404 instead.

Keeping that fact in mind, if the Yanks could tweak the F414 a bit to reduce its weight by 50kg, it would fit seamlessly... same has been done for AL-31 of J-10.
Thrust (installed) increase of 10kN would dramatically improve the performance of Tejas.
Required air intakes can be copy/pasted from Mark2, while increased fuel requirement can be handled by the new 1360lt wing & 800lt centerline drop-tanks. The enhanced lift will allow carrying those.

Slim chances for something that drastic, but the chance is exists. @Chinmoy hasn't replied to the DM yet.

Seems like HAL learnt their lesson not to order in advance in hope of IAF order. They will order F404/F414 when the actual deal is signed. Even if we get F414 it will be a drop fit for MK1 (just saying). I know CG etc.. blah blah but i assume they already accounted for that already in FBW control laws. F414 air intake requirement should be more than F404. That's why i asked if that issue was ever resolved to satisfaction. Regarding weight increase of 50 kgs.. it shouldn't be really an issue. If a plane which can take a lot more weapons load gets shaken down by just 50 kgs, then we have a much bigger problem than that.

 

[aerokan]

@Porky
Ya air intake of Tejas is a problem,that's why auxiliary intake is planned for mk1a
And after several discussion it was decided not to put f414 in mk1a

Don't we already have three intakes already including the auxillary ones?

 

[airtel]

Apart from Mk2, only AMCA was there in 2013. So is there any way for you to justify the number for which deal was signed?

TEDBF, ORCA, MWF all came recently.

Just because TEdbf . Orca , mwf are in news recently does not mean nobody thought about these aircrafts back then.
This may be the reason for a bigger order of GE 414 and smaller order of Rafael .

 

[Emperor Kalki]

Hey guys, I see that the discussion has veered off from this particular topic, but i asked hvt the million dollar STR question and well....eh, he said.....

 

[Holy Triad]

It's a 4yrs old video of tejas scale model being tested in a wind tunnel.

(Ignore it,If this video has been posted already)

 

[IndianHawk]

Hey guys, I see that the discussion has veered off from this particular topic, but i asked hvt the million dollar STR question and well....eh, he said.....

He was probably saying str is not as useful in combat as itr.

 

[BeEverVectorMan]

It's high time that design of air craft should be changed, with more flexibility in aerodynamic maneuvering I wonder if member have seen movie called stealth and green lantern where AI fighter plane have been shown and if they have seen then whose maneuvering was liked more

 

[piKacHHu]

He was probably saying str is not as useful in combat as itr.

No!
He is saying STR is as important as ITR.

Tejas STR he can't reveal as this information may be exploited by our adversary who has great rate turners i.e. F16 or its too bad w.r.t it's peers like Gripen. Anyway, STR charts like those I shared before for F16 are used for development of dogfight tactics.

Third, as expected from Delta winged aircraft Tejas, it gives good performance in ITR. It means it has greater authority on pointing nose at the target and take a shot. Reason being the delta wings generates higher lift as the AoA goes up. Therefore, the aircraft can sustain pointing it's nose towards the target relatively longer as compared to aircraft with conventional wings. This however comes at a cost of kinetic energy of the aircraft.

Check out this video of DCS simulation of M2K vs F16 dogfight.