LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[patriots]

Both have different designs,and Tejas is made of composite materials, though blk3 will have more composite than blk1&2
But I believe tejas mk1a will be better than blk3,Tejas mk1a will have elta spj better tha n chineese
Again tejas will have uttam/elta 2052 whichis liquid cooled but jf17 blk3 will have air cooled aesa ....so Tejas is better

Yes, I pointed out how Tejas platform is slightly better... But in videos of FC-1 performing in airshows, it is pretty impressive & with high energy maneuvers being better than Tejas for the 3/4th loop. Then it loses energy rapidly like an F-18, while Tejas maintains turn rate for multiple rounds.

Anyways, as of now BVR aspect is pretty evenly matched, Chinese Pl-15 being a copy of Derby. Quality aside, atleast on paper, Chinese Blk3 matches Mark1A feature to feature.

Designs

 

[IndianHawk]

But can the tejas mk1a take over the role of mirage 2000 with its limited range and perform balakot like operations as mwf is still a distant dream?

Miarge ferry range with 3 drop tanks == 3300km
Lca ferry range with 3 drop tanks == 3000km

Balakot is just 80 km from loc. While mirage flew from gwalior to hit it lca will be based just near the loc in place of mig21.

From there with payload of 3.5 ton lca can easily hit anyplace 500-600km away. Balakot is too close. Lca can hit entire pakistan from forward air bases.

Mirage Carried spice bomb which has range of 60km+ and weights 800-900kg.
Lca can carry 4 of them easy with Centreline tanks and 2 ccm. And hit balakot by just entering 20 km inside pok. Rest 60km spice will travel.
Or lca could carry 2 spice and 4 aam and centreline tank.

Mirage is more capable because mirage has an integrated powerful ew and protection suit hence mirage was chosen for balakot.

Lca mk1a will have ew suite with spj and jam proof aesa so it will be even better to penetrate enemy air space .

 

[IndianHawk]

Mark1A will most likely have Brahmos-NG as displayed in Aero India 2019. It won't even need to cross border. View attachment 48940Otherwise yes, even present Mark1 can carry centreline LGB (@IndianHawk
@Karthi what size tho?) for 100km range.
View attachment 48941

Lca centreline is probably rated for 1 ton payload.
I will have to check though.

But for spice or lgb it can carry them on inboard and midboard pylon which are rated for 1200kg and 1000 kg.

For bramhos ng mk1a inboard pylon will be rated for 1500kg.

 

[IndianHawk]

Both have different designs,and Tejas is made of composite materials, though blk3 will have more composite than blk1&2
But I believe tejas mk1a will be better than blk3,Tejas mk1a will have elta spj better tha n chineese
Again tejas will have uttam/elta 2052 whichis liquid cooled but jf17 blk3 will have air cooled aesa ....so Tejas is better
Designs

True. Porky wanted french avionics for jf17 but Indian mirage upgrade deal and mmrca forced french to stay away from Pakistan. And pakistan was forced to use third rate chini junk.

Air cooled aesa is a joke . It will get to hot to soon . Especially in summer season in subcontinent it is as good as useless. It's range remains limited too.

Also paki don't have pl15 and jf17 isn't capable of using pl15. It will most probably get pl12 which is far inferior to derby ER.

After all it was Israeli whose python chinese copied first.

Though the biggest difference in engine . Jf17 with single Russian engine is always a step behind from crash and it's availability is shit because of maintenance issues.

Same as Chinese j10 which keep crashing because of single al31.

There is a reason why Russian don't make single engine planes. Both china and paki are leaning that bitterly. Lol.

 

[Suhaan]

"Fifth gen plus AMCA" ,what does it exactly mean ,are they having another bird(imported) in mind besides AMCA?

 

[IndianHawk]

"Fifth gen plus AMCA" ,what does it exactly mean ,are they having another bird(imported) in mind besides AMCA?

Amca will.have drone swarm and unmanned landing takeoff capabilities . Which are 6th gen concepts.

Hence the term 5th gen +.

Just like rafale has aesa and hence 4gen + .

 

[Flying Dagger]

I guess lot of people have comprehension problems. Buying Rafale off the shelf for immediate consumption was needed to reduce the shortfalls in numbers. 100% agreed. I was only referring to the step-motherly treatment to the indigenous projects. Heck.. step-mothers would treat better than our govts.


Having said that, let me fix some 'dubious' things in your post.

'tech advantage against PAF' ? seriously? If we are still looking at PAF and not PLAAF, then that's the first and foremost strategic blunder. If we are equal to PAF and looking for advantage against PAF, with all the existing assets in our inventory, then IAF assertion that we can fight a two front war is so wrong. Which one is it correct today?



so you are saying that since we couldn't negotiate the price reduction to our desired price point for bigger numbers, we went ahead and purchased at a higher unit price (excluding support systems) and we purchased support systems to plan further purchases anyways at higher prices? see how illogical that sounds? Then why not go with the price they asked and sign the 126 deal instead of getting it in piecemeal orders if you are going to purchase anyways.

Also get rid of any illusions that France is going to help us in technical front. If that was the case, we would have achieved many things already.

Also if Modi can simply go and force the Rafale purchase decision.. why can't he force the speeding up of negotiations or mandatory conclusion of negotiations within the specified time frame for MK1A or other indigenous projects?




Forced? Without giving money and signing nothing?
Giving defense ministry to Jaitley and pulling back our only good defense minister Parrikar even when he was alive just to have advantage in Goa politics?

Infact govt was forced and IAF was forced to go desi fighter due to the lack of money.. not due to the lack of love of foreign maal.

Regarding the engine.. did you even follow the recent request for approval for a higher thrust engine? Govt shot it down as usual saying to finish smaller projects first and then we can look at it. Tell it to the govt that engine development takes a long time and refer them the 'tatti' channels that you were referring to.

Below is the link in case you missed this development.


http://idrw.org/drdo-ready-to-work-on-the-successor-to-kaveri-engine-govt-wants-basic-tech-ready/

"The proposed engine could be a clean slate design and will not borrow core and other technology from the now-closed Kaveri engine program but MOD wanted DRDO to prove that it can design and complete smaller projects first and in the process also develop next-generation technology for the engine"

 

[Bleh]

When will astra get integrated to tejas

Details unclear. Definitely by Mark1A, maybe earlier by 2021-22 on FOC too.

 

[patriots]

View attachment 49001
Details unclear. Definitely by Mark1A, maybe earlier by 2021-22 on FOC too.

No timeline
Only we know that astra integration is going with one of the lsp

 

[IndianHawk]

No timeline
Only we know that astra integration is going with one of the lsp

Once an lsp can fire Astra then all ioc foc can fire Astra simply with software upgrade.

 

[patriots]

Once an lsp can fire Astra then all ioc foc can fire Astra simply with software upgrade.

Atleast a year from now

 

[patriots]

Again

If indranil of brf to be believed
Lsp 8 to be converted to mk1a prototype

Hvt sir many times that most of the mk1a systems s are flying vwith different lsps

 

[IndianHawk]

Atleast a year from now

In emergency things can speed up way too fast.
In kargil we literally bought and integrated Israeli lgb in matter of weeks.

 

[patriots]

In emergency things can speed up way too fast.
In kargil we literally bought and integrated Israeli lgb in matter of weeks.

May be
But integrating missiles like asraam
As it doesn't require radar mating
Bdw derby integration with Tejas a long time

 

[IndianHawk]

May be
But integrating missiles like asraam
As it doesn't require radar mating
Bdw derby integration with Tejas a long time

For lca mk1 radar is Indo - Israel and Astra is fully Indian so shouldn't be much issue.

Regarding derby ER is is already mated with elta 2052 and operational in Columbia air Force.

So lca mk1a will get an almodst readymade combo of 2052+ derby ER. Won't take much time .

 

[Steven Rogers]

Both have different designs,and Tejas is made of composite materials, though blk3 will have more composite than blk1&2
But I believe tejas mk1a will be better than blk3,Tejas mk1a will have elta spj better tha n chineese
Again tejas will have uttam/elta 2052 whichis liquid cooled but jf17 blk3 will have air cooled aesa ....so Tejas is better
Designs

Sorry but composites on jf17 and that's too in quantity??? As far as I know all the composite parts will then be manufactured by china,further reducing Pakistan's involvement into the so called project since the only thing Pakistan does is making wings and body fuselage,so where exactly they will put composite and let china take that part of manufacturing...

 

[ObiWanKenobi]

For lca mk1 radar is Indo - Israel and Astra is fully Indian so shouldn't be much issue.

Regarding derby ER is is already mated with elta 2052 and operational in Columbia air Force.

So lca mk1a will get an almodst readymade combo of 2052+ derby ER. Won't take much time .

Or, we don't even worry about that!

Universal Miniaturized Missile Data-Link - MBDA

The UMMD is a fully customizable MBDA software that defines radio solution for missiles.

www.mbda-systems.com

'Meteor' all the things

 

[Prashant12]

Coming up in Nov a 3rd #LCA #Tejas line for 18 @IAF_MCC trainers

 

[Chinmoy]

Care to provide a source that the money got released?? The bigger question then is where did the money get released to?

Govt and IAF can play ping pong as much as they want with the little money they have and even little money they spend on indigenous products. If you can provide a source or any article which shows that the money got released to HAL, we would be more than happy to hear it. If there are no articles then i will take your word for it if you say you have an inside 'factual' source from which you heard. If the money is already paid to HAL without a contract signing.. then this would be a marvel in accounting practices world over and govt/IAF's own history of not paying even after a lot of time.

So you mean to say IAF sent back multiple times on 'particulars' for Tejas and delayed it for several years but it immediately accepted Rafale and signed within less than 18 months of Modi making deal with France? Can we infer that IAF is the reason for the delays and it has not mended it's ways from your statements?

First of all understand Chronology. MoD released the fund of 50K Crore to IAF for 83 Tejas Mk1A. During deal signoff, a percentage of pre delivery payment would be released to HAL by IAF. In due course the rest of the payment would be released by IAF in batches to HAL.

NEW DELHI—India’s Defense Acquisition Council (DAC) has approved a proposal to buy 83 indigenous Tejas Mk. 1-A Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) for the Indian air force (IAF) at a cost of 500.25 billion

https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/indian-air-force-get-83-tejas-mk-1-light-combat-aircraft

Second on Rafale deal, IAF was no where in loop of it not getting signed off in first place. It was all between HAL and Dassault. Then came the Govt to Govt deal, if you remember it. In Government to Government case, deal is signed between Governments where GoI is customer instead of IAF. In this case the fund gets released by GoI instead of IAF.

 

[aerokan]

First of all understand Chronology. MoD released the fund of 50K Crore to IAF for 83 Tejas Mk1A. During deal signoff, a percentage of pre delivery payment would be released to HAL by IAF. In due course the rest of the payment would be released by IAF in batches to HAL.



https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/indian-air-force-get-83-tejas-mk-1-light-combat-aircraft

Second on Rafale deal, IAF was nowhere in loop of it not getting signed off in first place. It was all between HAL and Dassault. Then came the Govt to Govt deal, if you remember it. In Government to Government case, deal is signed between Governments where GoI is customer instead of IAF. In this case the fund gets released by GoI instead of IAF.

That's not money released. That's approval only. Nowhere it is mentioned that the money got released.. As long as the money doesn't reach HAL.. the work won't start which you noted correctly and it is considered a delay however way it is phrased. My only gripe is why it is taking so many years to sign the deal when it could be done in less than 18 months like Rafale.

On Rafale deal, with regards to the original deal, IAF is not involved in money matters? So IAF just evaluated the wish list and govt would have bought it for IAF without IAF spending the money from IAF budget? HAL and Dassault can do all the negotiations they want and Trump can broker the negotiations as well but end of the day in a regular deal, the money would have to come out of IAF budget. We are all aware that the deal didn't materialize.

If you consider the modified reduced order, then govt bought the planes for IAF under G2G route but IAF didn't send any real objections that would cause the deal to slow down (done and dusted in 18 months including price negotiations). What stopped our AatmaNirbhar govt from doing a govt purchase of Tejas from HAL directly for IAF just like Rafale and what stopped IAF from finalizing the price within 18 months instead of resending MOD negotiated price back twice?

If govt and IAF can find a middle way to speed up Rafale contract signing, they can do the same for Tejas if they are really honest (not just sound bites). Yes, I am aware that the deal will be signed shortly (how shortly is anybody's guess) but this should have been signed in 2018 itself.


PS : i don't have subscription to Aviation Week article you linked.