LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[Bhurki]

Says production standard Prototypes will be in air by 2021-22

Fiscal year 2021-2022 means 15-27 months from now.. Has it been funded?

If what he is saying is correct that very well explains why no orders for mk1a have been placed since mk2 will start production from 2021 itself.

Hope it's true.

What do you mean? Mk2 will ordered instead of Mk1a?

 

[Knowitall]

Says production standard Prototypes will be in air by 2021-22

If what he is saying is correct that very well explains why no orders for mk1a have been placed since mk2 will start production from 2021 itself.

Hope it's true.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Fiscal year 2021-2022 means 15-27 months from now.. Has it been funded?

Yeah it's funded well enough i guess.
Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar today said the project for design and development of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Tejas Mk-II was sanctioned in November 2009 at a cost of Rs 2431.55 crore with Probable Date of Completion (PDC) of December 2018.
I think there are decent resources now compared to what we had in case of tejas.
Now we also have bunch of private sector companies which can make jet parts etc even the frontal fuselage.

 

[lcafanboy]

Yeah it's funded well enough i guess.
Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar today said the project for design and development of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Tejas Mk-II was sanctioned in November 2009 at a cost of Rs 2431.55 crore with Probable Date of Completion (PDC) of December 2018.

I didn't new DRDO developed technology to bring dead people alive....
Or did we just appointed a ghost as our defence minister.....

 

[patriots]

Any update on gun trials? Aerial gun trials and calibration were supposed to be done by now. the VIbration issue not yet solved or something?

Gun trial is in first quarter of 2020............
I hv forgotten the reason why in pushed back

 

[Frontrunner]

If what he is saying is correct that very well explains why no orders for mk1a have been placed since mk2 will start production from 2021 itself.

Hope it's true.

Nope not true.. ADA has already confirmed.. MWF will not have TD or prototype aircraft.. instead first aircraft flown at around 2023 will be IOC version.. this is done to decrease aircraft development cycle to 6-7 yrs.. else if we go by book of aircraft development.. this means first TD (technology demonstrator) aircraft.. then IOC.. then FOC.. then production aircraft.. in which IOC & FOC will take more than 8 yrs as it was in case of LCA MK1.. all this means long development cycle...

MWF is racing against time to enter production line at around 2026-27.. because the competition is between MWF & AMCA MK1... IAF has already made it's stand clear.. that whichever aircraft will be ready at their schedule time without delay..will get mass order..

 

[lcafanboy]

Nope not true.. ADA has already confirmed.. MWF will not have TD or prototype aircraft.. instead first aircraft flown at around 2023 will be IOC version.. this is done to decrease aircraft development cycle to 6-7 yrs.. else if we go by book of aircraft development.. this means first TD (technology demonstrator) aircraft.. then IOC.. then FOC.. then production aircraft.. in which IOC & FOC will take more than 8 yrs as it was in case of LCA MK1.. all this means long development cycle...

MWF is racing against time to enter production line at around 2026-27.. because the competition is between MWF & AMCA MK1... IAF has already made it's stand clear.. that whichever aircraft will be ready at their schedule time without delay..will get mass order..

Mk1a order will be signed at defence expo 2020 in January. Production will start by mid/end of 2022 with first aircraft coming in 2023 end. Mk2 will enter production by 2027-28. Amca TD will be in air 2024-25 but will enter production only in 2035 not before that as it will take 10yrs minimum for all the tests. Look at timeline of pakfa, f35 you will understand what I am saying. All 3 are needed mk1a, mk2, amca. Fact is one more fighter program will be commenced in heavy weight category 30+ ton to replace su30mki in 2040 after completion of mk1a and mk2 development.

 

[patriots]

Mk1a order will be signed at defence expo 2020 in January. Production will start by mid/end of 2022 with first aircraft coming in 2023 end. Mk2 will enter production by 2027-28. Amca TD will be in air 2024-25 but will enter production only in 2035 not before that as it will take 10yrs minimum for all the tests. Look at timeline of pakfa, f35 you will understand what I am saying. All 3 are needed mk1a, mk2, amca. Fact is one more fighter program will be commenced in heavy weight category 30+ ton to replace su30mki in 2040 after completion of mk1a and mk2 development.

Now we have...
1.mk1a
2.mwf
3.amca
4.tedbf(twin engine, navy)

And all are running parallel.....hope will be completed in time. .

 

[Knowitall]

Nope not true.. ADA has already confirmed.. MWF will not have TD or prototype aircraft.. instead first aircraft flown at around 2023 will be IOC version.. this is done to decrease aircraft development cycle to 6-7 yrs.. else if we go by book of aircraft development.. this means first TD (technology demonstrator) aircraft.. then IOC.. then FOC.. then production aircraft.. in which IOC & FOC will take more than 8 yrs as it was in case of LCA MK1.. all this means long development cycle...

MWF is racing against time to enter production line at around 2026-27.. because the competition is between MWF & AMCA MK1... IAF has already made it's stand clear.. that whichever aircraft will be ready at their schedule time without delay..will get mass order..

MATLAB DRDO wale ne fir ullu banaya he said production model for MWF will be in air by 2021.

But I believe IAF will place mass orders for both AMCA and MK2 there is no race between them
Both jets have very different roles are are being inducted for very different reasons and both will get mass orders irrespective of which one flies first.

 

[Frontrunner]

Mk1a order will be signed at defence expo 2020 in January. Production will start by mid/end of 2022 with first aircraft coming in 2023 end. Mk2 will enter production by 2027-28. Amca TD will be in air 2024-25 but will enter production only in 2035 not before that as it will take 10yrs minimum for all the tests. Look at timeline of pakfa, f35 you will understand what I am saying. All 3 are needed mk1a, mk2, amca. Fact is one more fighter program will be commenced in heavy weight category 30+ ton to replace su30mki in 2040 after completion of mk1a and mk2 development.

One correction about AMCA.. amca mk1 which field ge414 engine.. & as stated by ADA will go into production in 2028-2030 which seems onerous task but that's wht ADA timeline suggests.. & thus after 2035 AMCA mk2 will go hot with an indigenous/foreign collaborated engine (result of MMRCA deal with engine TOT) with optimum required thrust for AMCA & featuring TVC nozzles..

 

[Frontrunner]

MATLAB DRDO wale ne fir ullu banaya he said production model for MWF will be in air by 2021.

But I believe IAF will place mass orders for both AMCA and MK2 there is no race between them
Both jets have very different roles are are being inducted for very different reasons and both will get mass orders irrespective of which one flies first.

Tejas mwf & AMCA both nodal design teams are under ADA & thus are competing against each other to secure mass order...

Tejas mwf will go in production in 2027-28.. AMCA mk1 featuring GE414 engine will go hot at around 2028-30.. any delay in any of the project will give advantage to other program to secure mass order.. IAF has provided an intend for 36 AMCA mk1.. if mwf get's delayed it will only help AMCA to secure mass order...

 

[Narasimh]

MATLAB DRDO wale ne fir ullu banaya he said production model for MWF will be in air by 2021.

But I believe IAF will place mass orders for both AMCA and MK2 there is no race between them
Both jets have very different roles are are being inducted for very different reasons and both will get mass orders irrespective of which one flies first.

What Dr. Deodhare was saying was the first Prototype(production standard) to fly in 2021-2022. There are 4 prototypes to be built with testing to continue 3-4 years. So first production version will be produced by 2025-26 just as mk1A orders are tapering off. MK1A is very much a stop gap reality that will keep the LCA line busy till mk2 gets certified.

 

[Knowitall]

Tejas mwf & AMCA both nodal design teams are under ADA & thus are competing against each other to secure mass order...

Tejas mwf will go in production in 2027-28.. AMCA mk1 featuring GE414 engine will go hot at around 2028-30.. any delay in any of the project will give advantage to other program to secure mass order.. IAF has provided an intend for 36 AMCA mk1.. if mwf get's delayed it will only help AMCA to secure mass order...

No both aircrafts have completely different functions and needs one cannot compare them to each other.

Both of them are needed in mass numbers. Nowhere has IAF stated that the aircraft to come first will get the mass order.

How will Tejas MK2 play the role of AMCA that is deep strike capability similarly we cannot expect AMCA to do frequent caps that will be Tejas forte.

Both programs are running in parallel to fullfill different requirements of the airforce.

There is no competition between them it's like comparing apples to oranges.

 

[Frontrunner]

No both aircrafts have completely different functions and needs one cannot compare them to each other.

Both of them are needed in mass numbers. Nowhere has IAF stated that the aircraft to come first will be get the mass order.

How will Tejas MK2 play the role of AMCA that is deep strike capability similarly we cannot expect AMCA to do frequent caps that will be Tejas forte.

Both programs are running in parallel to fullfill different requirements of the airforce.

There is no competition between them it's like comparing apples to oranges.

Their's a competition.. however both aircrafts will be ordered at sufficient nos.. only competition is to secure first order in bulk.. this is needed & seems logical when one sees the track record of ADA/HAL where imperative programs are usually mired with delays & lack of accountability.. so having a competition suffices the purpose.. so both team can pull their socks & complete their respective projects in their scheduled time..

Both aircrafts will serve in sufficient nos.. however IAF Chief strongly backs indigenous 5th generation jet, says no plan to import
MWF will replace mig29 & mirage2k .. AMCA is wht IAF is more inclined towards as it will be a much desired 5th gen aircraft.. with stealth & bells, whistles.. that's why to expedite the project ADA is going ahead with less powerful ge414 engine in AMCA mk1.. only to meet timelines & schedule.. specified by IAF.

 

[ezsasa]

One correction about AMCA.. amca mk1 which field ge414 engine.. & as stated by ADA will go into production in 2028-2030 which seems onerous task but that's wht ADA timeline suggests.. & thus after 2035 AMCA mk2 will go hot with an indigenous/foreign collaborated engine (result of MMRCA deal with engine TOT) with optimum required thrust for AMCA & featuring TVC nozzles..

Why does AMCA need TVC?
isn’t it the whole point of 5th gen is being able to punch from long distances?

and moreover installing TVC adds weight penalty to the aircraft.

 

[Frontrunner]

Why does AMCA need TVC?
isn’t it the whole point of 5th gen is being able to punch from long distances?

and moreover installing TVC adds weight penalty to the aircraft.

That's for post 2030 era.. where u will need a dogfighter with advent of Chinese 5th gen aircrafts.. it's normal for long range shots when the fight is between a 5th gen & 4th gen aircrafts... however when a 5th gen goes against a 5th gen aircraft... Both won't be able to employ long range BVR missiles against each other owing to LOW & VLO RCS of stealth jets.. thus most of the time they will end up in a near visual range dogfight using IR & PASSIVE missiles.

Remember long range BVR missiles comes with few caveats.. i.e ROE where one would need to visualy id the adversary aircraft.. as u don't wnt to end up in a soup where u shoot down a civilian airliner or a fatricide.. & also BVR missiles effectiveness decreases drastically when shot at dmax (70-100% max range).. adversary can just turn tail & avoid the missile.. as the tail on chase of bvr missile is marginal as compared to head on chase.. that's why effectiveness of bvr missiles are low as compared to wvr missiles which hv higher effectiveness & pk of ~70%

Bvr missiles are active & also when it is employed.... aircraft has to use it's radar to lock & provide guidance & telemetry to bvr missile... So whenever aircraft will use it's main radar to lock.. adversary aircraft's RWR will go abuzz alerting him there is lock on his aircraft .. thus he can take evasive action & turn tail.

However WVR missiles are passive i.e it can be used passively without giving away any active emissions for enemy to get alerted & thus refraining from taking any evasive action.. increasing Pk..

True stealth is not only about Low & VLO RCS 5th gen aircrafts.. it's also about ability to not been seen or heard wrt it's active radar emissions.. that's why we are seeing IRST as an imperative with new gen aircrafts..

 

[captscooby81]

I am 100 % confident sooner or later we will buy few Su-57 off the rack as and when it available. Lets wait and watch .

IAF Chief strongly backs indigenous 5th generation jet, says no plan to import

 

[rohit b3]

One correction about AMCA.. amca mk1 which field ge414 engine.. & as stated by ADA will go into production in 2028-2030 which seems onerous task but that's wht ADA timeline suggests.. & thus after 2035 AMCA mk2 will go hot with an indigenous/foreign collaborated engine (result of MMRCA deal with engine TOT) with optimum required thrust for AMCA & featuring TVC nozzles..

Its impossible to get the first flight in by 2025 and then production within 4 years.
2035 is a more realistic time frame for AMCA.
I am more worried about the delay of Tejas mk1A . If its being said the first one will join service by "end 2023", it will pretty much get into 2024, whereas I personally was expecting it to enter service by 2021-22 when it was announced by Parrikar back in 2017. With Parrikar gone, IAF has simply delayed the formal contract.

Anyway , the 100 odd Tejas mk1/mk1A will replace the 100 odd remaining Mig -21
120 off Tejas mk2 will replace the 120 odd Jaguars
100+ AMCA can be used to replace the 100+ Mig29/Mirage2000 from the mid/late 2030s.

^ I think that perfectly fits in.

Now to increase squadron strength...36 Rafales have been ordered already. And since we had to pay for all the Rafale related infrastructure already.......order a follow on of 36 More Rafales.

One extra squadron of Su-30MKI can also be looked at to fill up for the numbers lost in crashes . However i have serious doubts over the capabilities of the MKI ever since the skirmish with Pakistan. On theory i had expected MKI to take out F-16/JF17 as target practice to be honest.

 

[Frontrunner]

I am 100 % confident sooner or later we will buy few Su-57 off the rack as and when it available. Lets wait and watch .

Lol i also suspect it... However it would be only in one scenario.. i.e if al bakis somehow gets hold of 5th gen aircrafts from China & if AMCA gets delayed...

 

[Narasimh]

One extra squadron of Su-30MKI can also be looked at to fill up for the numbers lost in crashes . However i have serious doubts over the capabilities of the MKI ever since the skirmish with Pakistan. On theory i had expected MKI to take out F-16/JF17 as target practice to be honest.

Su30 and F-16s are nearly same generation aircrafts and you have to see the tactical aspects of 27 Feb objectively to come to conclusions on SU30's capabilities. It was never going to be a target practice and wont be target practice with Rafales in service with meteors either.