Know Your 'Rafale'

[natarajan]

name one country with which india has shared foreign ToT

india itself not going to get full tech just going to assemble knocked down components like children building with block(toy)

 

[arundo]

Swiss open to concrete offer from Dassault for jets

Feb 14 (Reuters) - Switzerland would be prepared to examine a concrete offer from rival Dassault to buy figher jet planes if it were to be presented with one, its defence minister said on Tuesday.

"We've asked the French to give us a really concrete offer," Defence Minister Ueli Maurer told a news conference on Tuesday.

"If we really do get a lower offer, we'd be able to look at it. We only have a deal with Sweden when the parliament's given the funding and there's possibly been a referendum," he said.

In November the government opted to buy 22 JAS-39 Gripens for a price tag of 3.1 billion Swiss francs ($3.4 bln) over rival bids for the Rafale built by France's Dassault Aviation and EADS's Anglo-German-Italian Eurofighter Typhoon.

Newspapers hreported that Dassault had made a cheaper counter bid, but Maurer said he had not received another offer from Dassault.

Swiss open to concrete offer from Dassault for jets | Reuters

Herr Maurer is trying to save his ass by backtracking on Gripen. Rafale for the WIN!

I do not think they will go back. Even if the criteria were to high for the Gripen and Rafale won, they will stick to their decision (for financial reasons of course and not to lose their face of course). To be honest, Gripen would be good enough for the tasks in CH, especially in its improved version and its operating is far less expensive (besides the aircraft price).
Swiss tend to demand a lot, but also to be pragmatic and there were other things they have taken into account.

Faut oublier la Suisse !

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Swiss open to concrete offer from Dassault for jets

Feb 14 (Reuters) - Switzerland would be prepared to examine a concrete offer from rival Dassault to buy figher jet planes if it were to be presented with one, its defence minister said on Tuesday.

"We've asked the French to give us a really concrete offer," Defence Minister Ueli Maurer told a news conference on Tuesday.

"If we really do get a lower offer, we'd be able to look at it. We only have a deal with Sweden when the parliament's given the funding and there's possibly been a referendum," he said.

In November the government opted to buy 22 JAS-39 Gripens for a price tag of 3.1 billion Swiss francs ($3.4 bln) over rival bids for the Rafale built by France's Dassault Aviation and EADS's Anglo-German-Italian Eurofighter Typhoon.

Newspapers hreported that Dassault had made a cheaper counter bid, but Maurer said he had not received another offer from Dassault.

Swiss open to concrete offer from Dassault for jets | Reuters

Herr Maurer is trying to save his ass by backtracking on Gripen. Rafale for the WIN!

Wow...Looks like the MMRCA deal has surely screwed the fortunes of EF-2000. British should have not sent that raving football hooligan Jeremy Clarkson down as an Ambassador!

 

[Armand2REP]

I do not think they will go back. Even if the criteria were to high for the Gripen and Rafale won, they will stick to their decision (for financial reasons of course and not to lose their face of course). To be honest, Gripen would be good enough for the tasks in CH, especially in its improved version and its operating is far less expensive (besides the aircraft price).
Swiss tend to demand a lot, but also to be pragmatic and there were other things they have taken into account.

Faut oublier la Suisse !

The National Council has said Gripen is "crossed off" the list. They won't be buying it after this scandal as it would be political suicide. Suisse primary mission is air defence which Gripen failed to even meet the minimum score. It is without doubt out of the competition. It is either Rafale with its L1 bid or the disarmament lobby gets it cancelled. Considering it was already decided that new fighters were needed, Rafale has the upper-hand.

 

[methos]

Gripen has also lowered the price.

 

[Armand2REP]

Gripen isn't even a consideration anymore, except in whose heads are going to roll.

 

[Cola]

Gripen isn't even a consideration anymore, except in whose heads are going to roll.

LOL Armand, you got carried away a bit, haven't you?
It isn't Armasuisse who foots the bill, but government and last time I checked military junta wasn't in control of Switzerland, but a parliamentary government.
Besides, by the same token, Rafale is out of the picture in Brazil since FAB preferred Gripen.
So, the only heads that could roll here, are military (for this "brochure") and occasional French (possibly yours if you forgot to keep the vouchers).

What's MICA's Pk?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

 

[Armand2REP]

LOL Armand, you got carried away a bit, haven't you?
It isn't Armasuisse who foots the bill, but government and last time I checked military junta wasn't in control of Switzerland, but a parliamentary government.
Besides, by the same token, Rafale is out of the picture in Brazil since FAB preferred Gripen.
So, the only heads that could roll here, are military (for this "brochure") and occasional French (possibly yours if you forgot to keep the vouchers).

LOL Cola, you got carried away a bit, haven't you?

It is the National Council that "crossed out" Gripen and not their DefMin, last time I checked the National Council was the purse string of Switzerland and the parliamentary government.
Besides, by the same token, Rafale was preferred by FAB over other contenders.

BRASILIA, April 7 (Reuters) - Brazil's air force prefers France's Rafale jet as its next-generation fighter despite the plane's higher price tag.

Brazil favors France's Rafale jet - minister | Reuters

So, the only heads that could roll here are the fools at Armasuisse that thought they could hide the evaluations of the Suisse AF. Although your head might roll when a crashing Eurofighter cuts it off.

 

[Cola]

It is the National Council that "crossed out" Gripen...

Well: "Maurer, at a press conference in Bern Tuesday 14 February that was attended by a number of senior military officials, confirmed his faith in the Federal Council's decision to spend CHF3.1 billion for the 22 Swedish jets."

http://genevalunch.com/blog/2012/02/13/swiss-fighter-plane-deal-takes-nose-dive/
Where did you get the idea the Gripen is crossed, by National Council?

Brazil favors France's Rafale jet - minister | Reuters

From your own link: "Analysts said Jobim may have pressured the air force to change its position. Jobim and President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva have repeatedly expressed their preference for the Rafale. Late last year, Lula said the choice was not technical but political and strategic and that he would have the final word."
Seems to me that Rafale can't win against Gripen on technical merits (well, except in Switzerland, ofc ).

So, the only heads that could roll here are the fools at Armasuisse that thought they could hide the evaluations of the Suisse AF.

Or the ones that "draw conclusions", from their bank accounts instead of actual measurements and already bought parcels on the Azure coast?

Although your head might roll when a crashing Eurofighter cuts it off.

Oh c'mon, don't get all deffensive.
Seriously, you're my favourite peddler and I just like to tease you a bit.
No offence, really.

Still, you didn't tell what's MICA's Pk?
I'd imagine considerably higher then R27's...

 

[Armand2REP]

Well: "Maurer, at a press conference in Bern Tuesday 14 February that was attended by a number of senior military officials, confirmed his faith in the Federal Council's decision to spend CHF3.1 billion for the 22 Swedish jets."

Let me school you on Suisse government bodies. The Federal Council is the executive branch which includes the Ministry of Defence. The National Council is the Parliament and the power of the purse. Of course the DefMin will back his loser horse to save his ass. He would look more of a smuck than he already does.

From your own link: "Analysts said Jobim may have pressured the air force to change its position. Jobim and President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva have repeatedly expressed their preference for the Rafale. Late last year, Lula said the choice was not technical but political and strategic and that he would have the final word."
Seems to me that Rafale can't win against Gripen on technical merits (well, except in Switzerland, ofc ).

Analysts do not equate to a FAB evaluation.

Or the ones that "draw conclusions", from their bank accounts instead of actual measurements and already bought parcels on the Azure coast?

The conclusion was drawn by SAF, they know what they need better than bribed politicians.

Oh c'mon, don't get all deffensive.
Seriously, you're my favourite peddler and I just like to tease you a bit.
No offence, really.

It was a swipe @ cannablised EFs of the Austrians.

Still, you didn't tell what's MICA's Pk?
I'd imagine considerably higher then R27's...

There hasn't been a failed intercept by MICA out of 50 tests. It would be in the 90+ percentile.

 

[vanadium]

Well, Armand, I have said for a long long time that BVR combat success is overhyped. It is really good when the contest is grossly overmatched by one side - like NATO against Serbia or against Iraq or Afghanistan. But against two similarly matched foes, the chances are not that great.

Here are some counterpoints -
1. The Eritrean war you are talking about was in 1999, when they were fighting using soviet-era old missiles (R-27R) with questionable seeker performance, low-tech radars on the aircraft and two evenly matched sides. A total of ~24 missiles were fired by both sides and only one "hit" was recorded.
2. The vaunted AIM7 Sparrow (AIM7E) has a kill potential of 10% and after firing about 1000 missiles till date have had ~5% success rate - that too against much less equipped opponents. The AMRAAM AIM120 used by USAF and NATO forces has a kill ratio of 20% - considered to be the best of all times - mostly against vastly inferior enemy- neither well trained pilots, nor very well protected (ECM and observability) aircraft. It will be interesting to see how the AIM 120 perform against a more balanced opponent (PAF against IAF or USAF against PLAAF).

When one side enjoys air supremacy over the other there is no air combat at all. There are some initial attacks which are wiped out and then the losing side simply try to save its assets (hiding them, flying them to third countries).

In fact up to date there has been very little BVR combat.

Most of it is simulated, either in exercises or in operational analyses.

BVR combat is still the mode of combat favored by true air superiority fighters. And it will remain so for a long time. Missiles such as Meteor and long range AESA radar are indicating the path of future air combat. Wipe them away as far as possible from you.

 

[ace009]

Yeah - There is the whole concept of maximum range of a missile and the "no escape zone"- NEZ. Most people go by the "max range" - which is pretty meaningless for the current technology of missiles - since they are not ramjet missiles. The initial 5-10 seconds are thrust and then the missile follows an inertial arc with minor course modifications till the target is neared. Anyway - too off topic here. Meteor will be different as it uses the Ramjet technology.

the Eritrea/ Ehtiopean wars were amateurs and mercenary pilots firing BVR missiles at each other as soon as the opponent was within the maximum range. Professional well trained pilots will never do that in actual combat, but wait for the opponent to reach NEZ.Also important are radar ranges, seeker heads, fuze quality and not to mention ECM of the opponent.

Back on topic. My problems with Rafale are neither it's weapons nor it's combat abilities - I think the radar is a bit small and the engine is underpowered.

As to Armand's claim that MICA has 50% "hit ratio" - it's in simulated conditions/ practice exercises. I am sure the Russians can claim similar numbers too for "controlled" experiments. AFAIK, MICA has never been used in BVR combat.

 

[methos]

Regarding Switzerland:

Armee-Spitze hält geschlossen an Gripen-Entscheid fest
(Heads of armed forces keep Gripen decision tightly)

Excerpt:

Der Bericht sei im Jahr 2008 mit dem Gripen-Typ C/D entstanden. Inzwischen stehe aber der neuere Gripen-Typ E/F zur Diskussion. Wie sich die Weiterentwicklung des Flugzeugs auswirke, lasse sich berechnen.

Rückmeldungen aus Schweden über die vorgenommenen Entwicklungsschritte hin zum Modell E/F zeigten nun, dass diese Annahmen sogar übertroffen würden, sagte Luftwaffenchef Markus Gygax.

In English:
The report was made in 2008 with the Gripen C/D. But currently the Gripen E/F is discussed. How the further developments affect the aircraft can be calculated.
Acknowledgements from Sweden about the steps of development made in E/F showed that the expectations were even surpassed, said chief of air force Markus Gygax.

 

[Armand2REP]

The second report was made in 2009 and it calculates Gripen NG impovements into the scale. It still did not meet satisfactory requirements. Gygax signed it so his head will roll too.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

LCA is the same as gripen, seriously. Once the issues are sorted out it has a lower cost and more or less same avionics. The Tejas Mark2 will have the same f-414 engine as the GripenNG. As soon as we buy all these technologies from France and Israel, we will have to use it in the Tejas and AMCA. So it makes no sense to buy the Gripen, its to much of the same with LCA.

 

[nitesh]

India Chose Rafale On Cost But Britain Demands Second Chance for Eurofighter | Aviation International News

France's Dassault Rafale fighter won India's $10 billion-plus medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contest for 126 combat jets because its direct acquisition and life-cycle costs were 22 to 25 percent lower than those of the Eurofighter Typhoon. This verdict came from "a top [Indian] defense ministry source" quoted by The Times of India newspaper in Delhi last Friday. AIN believes that the report is credible. Negotiations on the contract should be completed by October, the source added.

Before the contract is signed the following points need to be nailed down: the level of technology transfer for the 108 aircraft to be built in India; the coproduction plan; whether and how any government-furnished equipment is to be integrated; the guaranteed mean time between failure rates; and whether to choose an engineering support package or a performance-based logistics package. The life-cycle cost data supplied by the MMRCA contenders covered 6,000 hours of flying over 40 years.

The 18 aircraft to be supplied in flyaway condition comprise 12 single- and six twin-seaters. They should be delivered within 48 months of the contract taking effect, with the complete weapons package. Of note, the MMRCA weapons and stores specification includes anti-radiation and anti-ship missiles, a reconnaissance pod and a buddy refueling pod.

Neither the Rafale nor the Eurofighter has an anti-radiation missile, nor is one planned for either type. The Exocet anti-ship missile has already been integrated on the Rafale. The Typhoon bid included the Saab Rbs15 or the MBDA Marte ER anti-ship missile, neither of which are required by any of the Eurofighter partner nations. No reconnaissance or buddy refueling pod has yet been integrated on the Typhoon. The Thales Areos recce pod has already been fitted to the Rafale, which also already does buddy refueling.

The Indian production will comprise 74 single- and 34 twin-seaters. Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) has been designated as the lead production agency for the airframe and engine, and as system integrator. The first deliveries are due four years after contract signing, in a three-phase transfer of production. HAL is expected to produce six aircraft in that first year, 10 in the second and the total of 108 by the seventh year of local production.

The Indian government expects licensed production of engine accessories, avionics, radars, systems, role equipment and tooling. Some or all of this could be undertaken by privately owned Indian defense companies that have been chosen by the successful bidder. The MMRCA package also includes simulators and other training aids, and ground handling and support equipment.

In any event, the industrial benefits for Indian industry should multiply after the MMRCA enters service. Following the 24-month warranty period, the lifetime support and depot level maintenance must be provided by an Indian partner. "To ensure high aircraft availability, each operating base will have second-line facilities, including servicing of radar and avionics LRUs, electronic warfare equipment and hydraulics. An engine repair section and test bed will need to be set up," said an Indian air force engineer. There will be three operating bases, each with two squadrons. Depot-level maintenance will benefit from technology transfer including metallic and composite structures, canopy, radome, castings and forgings, landing gear, engine including Fadec, turbine and compressor blades, wheels and brakes, hydraulics and fuel system, including in-flight fueling.

 

[Armand2REP]

Oh Gawd, please don't tell me we have to integrate the crappy Kh-31 onto our beautiful Rafale.

 

[asianobserve]

Oh Gawd, please don't tell me we have to integrate the crappy Kh-31 onto our beautiful Rafale.

You can understand now the logic of the Russians in building a humongous fighter... Their missiles are giants...

 

[praveen]

Oh Gawd, please don't tell me we have to integrate the crappy Kh-31 onto our beautiful Rafale.

Very true , its the brute strength and not miniaturization and sophistication the russians believe in .