Know Your 'Rafale'

pmaitra

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Yusuf,

Think about it this way.

How much are we willing to risk? Say we get those F-18s and the US refuses to give us spare parts in a limited conflict with PRC, which is obvious given the amount of trade between US and PRC (US companies will lobby to prevent the conflict from escalating), what would India do? I am pretty sure India will never reverse engineer those F-18s.

Now swap PRC and India and repeat everything I said. PRC will be quite fine, because they'll already have been three quarters on their way towards a complete cloning of the F-18s.

Either way, we have too much to lose.

I think Indo-US relations are maturing, but they are not yet matured enough. The Cold War ended, but only in 1991.
 

Yusuf

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Wrong premise. The way thing ls are, US will more than encourage India to go to war or if attacked help India give china a drubbing.
 

asianobserve

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The Cold War ended, but only in 1991.
I doubt if the Cold War has ended judging from your statements. Here's the US offering closer relations, because it's no longer the Cold War (at least not against the USSR), and because they have a bigger object of concern, and yet some people are still talking like it's the Cold War and the US is out to subvert India every step of the way. Forget about US' continued donations to Pakistan, it's a side show. The US has more to gain (not donate) from a strategic relationship with India.
 

pmaitra

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Wrong premise. The way thing ls are, US will more than encourage India to go to war or if attacked help India give china a drubbing.
Do you really think US corporations will not lobby against that? The US wants to prop up India to be strong enough to fight PRC, but they would any day prefer an equilibrium over an outright war. The US has too many trade ties with PRC than with India. There is a line that the US had drawn between making India strong enough for PRC and India and PRC actually fighting it out - they want to stay on that line.

At least that is what I think, after reading all those arguments about an alliance against PRC and encircling PRC, etc..
 

pmaitra

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I doubt if the Cold War has ended judging from your statements. Here's the US offering closer relations, because it's no longer the Cold War (at least not against the USSR), and because they have a bigger object of concern, and yet some people are still talking like it's the Cold War and the US is out to subvert India every step of the way. Forget about US' continued donations to Pakistan, it's a side show. The US has more to gain (not donate) from a strategic relationship with India.
So you doubt that the Cold War ended? In other words, you think the Cold War is still going on?

What are you talking about?
 

KS

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Though keeping history in mind is a good idea, being stuck up with it is not. Comparing India with Pakistan is a great insult to India. India is not on the same strategic level for the US as Pakistan which is but a tissue paper. Remember it was a victory for Indian diplomacy and stature in the world when we got the nuke deal. We are not a banana republic.
Believe me, I give a jack to the NAM & "independent foreign policy" airheads and I am all for co-operation with the US.

But co-operation should be for things that suit us (like containing China, nuclear deal etc)...not for things that may come to bite us in the future like fighters which will be essentially hangar queens in case any dickhead US president decides to impose sanctions on us for god-knows-what reason.

I don't know why people hype this deal so much...After all the mistrust of the past we have signed (or going to sign) defence deals worth billions of dollars with the US like C-130, C-17, P-8I, M777s, GE-414s, Javelins and hopefully Apaches,Chinooks etc..

If US cant settle for a relationship with all these deals. then whats the use of that relationship ?
 
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KS

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You know i had to read your post twice before hitting the like button to make sure what i was reading was not my imagination.
I'm pragmatic. I'm neither for surrendering foreign policy to US or just oppose them for the sake of opposing like those NAM airheads.

I want to co-operation with US where it benefits and and our own policy when it suits us.
 

sukhish

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Though keeping history in mind is a good idea, being stuck up with it is not. Comparing India with Pakistan is a great insult to India. India is not on the same strategic level for the US as Pakistan which is but a tissue paper. Remember it was a victory for Indian diplomacy and stature in the world when we got the nuke deal. We are not a banana republic.
Yusuf,
India US relations are going smoothly, over time the trust will develop, and the china factor is always going to play for India. the communist china is a direct threat to U.S, where as a vegetarian India is threat to nobody. U.S understands that. we never proliferate, we don't copy and don't create terrorists , these are the things which speak for themselves. Unlike russia and china which are hell bent on undermining the U.S all the time, India has no desire and never wanted to compete with the U.S . U.S has earned it's place because of the transparent hard work and not by manipulating it's currencies and India respects that. these are things which binds us together more than he sheer geopolitics. Indians are respected in the U.S , where as pakistanis are sent to jail for stealing nuclear technology. In the minds of the U.S citizens , India has carved out a niche for itself, although pakistan has also carved out a niche of different kind.
 

pmaitra

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Yusuf,
India US relations are going smoothly, over time the trust will develop, and the china factor is always going to play for India. the communist china is a direct threat to U.S, where as a vegetarian India is threat to nobody. U.S understands that. we never proliferate, we don't copy and don't create terrorists , these are the things which speak for themselves. Unlike russia and china which are hell bent on undermining the U.S all the time, India has no desire and never wanted to compete with the U.S . U.S has earned it's place because of the transparent hard work and not by manipulating it's currencies and India respects that. these are things which binds us together more than he sheer geopolitics. Indians are respected in the U.S , where as pakistanis are sent to jail for stealing nuclear technology. In the minds of the U.S citizens , India has carved out a niche for itself, although pakistan has also carved out a niche of different kind.
US has been manipulating the US$ since the 70's buddy! Rest I agree with.
 

sukhish

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pmaitra,
no matter what you think, U.S has the most tranparent economy , there is a reason why the confidence in the dollar is so high. just come here look for yourself.
rules are defined and are very easy to follow. red tape is very low and more over freedom is in abundance. these qualities made U.S distinct from other nations and are the backbone of prosperity of the U.S. India is also following the similar path.
 

pmaitra

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pmaitra,
no matter what you think, U.S has the most tranparent economy , there is a reason why the confidence in the dollar is so high. just come here look for yourself.
rules are defined and are very easy to follow. red tape is very low and more over freedom is in abundance. these qualities made U.S distinct from other nations and are the backbone of prosperity of the U.S. India is also following the similar path.
Well, all I am saying is that the US has been printing currency out of thin air, since the 70's. Unless you explicitly disagree with that, we should not enter into an argument that is not at all necessary.

P.S.: There was a time where a dollar used to be a large coin made of silver. The dollar today is worth a small fraction of that silver. I have one such souvenir.
 

asianobserve

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So you doubt that the Cold War ended? In other words, you think the Cold War is still going on?

What are you talking about?
I'm referring to the contradictory messages in your statements. On one hand you said the the Cold War ended in 1991 yet your line of thought on the US still is straight out of the Cold War play book: US is out to undermine India and is thereby inherently untrustworthy.
 

johnee

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Though keeping history in mind is a good idea, being stuck up with it is not. Comparing India with Pakistan is a great insult to India. India is not on the same strategic level for the US as Pakistan which is but a tissue paper. Remember it was a victory for Indian diplomacy and stature in the world when we got the nuke deal. We are not a banana republic.
Saar,
it is not only history that is against India partnering with US but present and future are also against any long-term partnership with US. India's goals(as an independent power) do not gel with the US' aims in the long term. Why long term, even right now, US funds PA. Without US' funds, PA would be useless in 1yr. Just 1 yr. PA has been source of great misery to Indian people, but US' still supports them(knowing very well what PA is upto). PA has acquired Nukes and threatens to nuke India at the drop of a hat. And US is still funding that terror Org. On the other hand, Iraq has not even acquired any Nukes, but there are sanctions on it. US wants India to acquiesce to those sanctions even if they are detrimental to India's goals.

In future, India's rise as an independent power is not in US' interests. US would want India to become its lackey in the region. And to become US' lackey is not in India's interests. So, neither history nor future(and not even the present) bodes well for any US-India alliance. US is as much our enemies as Chinese or Pakis. In many ways, Pakis could challenge India because of US and China. Pakis are the knife, China is the cloak, US is the stabber and europeans(particularly Anglo-Saxons) are the brain. India must be careful from all these entities.

All these entities would prefer if India could piggy back them and their nations by providing markets and raw materials. Yet, India's rise beyond a threshold threatens their hold on to power, globally and regionally.

There would be points of convergence of interest, where India could cooperate and work with them. But that should not be confused as 'friendship'. These entities will try to harm, did try to harm and are continuing to harm India, directly or indirectly.

About this particular deal:
Dealing with French is far more easier than US. India would be at the mercy of US diktats, if that deal went to US(specially at the time of war). You say that Pakis are no match to India. I say, India(right now) is no match to Pakis. Pakis have a handle on US and know how to squeeze their balls and get what they want. On the other hand, India does not have any significant handle on US. So, if US starts dictating how and when and where we fight with whom through these deals, what will India do? India would have to look for US' approval before planning a combat, which would be a disaster for India. Pakis have atleast built up an aura of being suicidal bastards and crazy f@cks. India does not even have such image to depend on.

And we can be sure that US will try to make India dance to its tunes using whatever means it can.

Anyway, India just saved that French company and can milk it to hilt. Further, the French company may be open to future joint projects, which is what India should be doing instead of simply buying.

In conclusion: India and US are not natural allies. They have some common interests(there are differences even among these interests), where they can work together. US cannot be trusted to support India, if some combat is planned by India. French are more trustworthy in this matter. French are also desperate and will give good offers to India including potential joint projects in long-term. French are also less vulnerable to US unlike UK.
 

Daredevil

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IAF fighter deal: Rafale much cheaper than Typhoon; govt rules out review

NEW DELHI: It was the "substantially higher cost" of acquiring and operating the Eurofighter Typhoon that led to its ejection from the almost $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project to supply 126 fighters to IAF.

"The French Rafale jet, the eventual winner, beat the Typhoon hollow both in terms of life cycle costs and direct acquisition costs. The entire MMRCA project cost would have gone up by around Rs 25,000 crore if Typhoon had been selected over Rafale," a top defence ministry source said on Thursday.

Given all this, MoD has ruled out the possibility of "any comeback" by Typhoon despite carping by the four nations (UK, Germany, Spain and Italy) backing it, and will begin "exclusive and extensive negotiations" with Rafale-manufacturer Dassault Aviation next week. "The actual contract for the complex project should be ready for inking by September-October," said a source.

British PM David Cameron may have vowed to "encourage" India to reconsider its decision to go in for Rafale, instead of the EADS-manufactured Typhoon, in the largest "open-tender" military aviation deal going around the globe. But that is highly unlikely to happen.

"The fact is that the cost deferential between Typhoon and Rafale was very high... it would cost India around 22% to 25% more if the former had been selected. No government can agree to so much extra," the source said.

Both Rafale and Typhoon had been found "compliant" on all the 643-660 technical parameters laid down to meet specific operational requirements of India, after gruelling field trials by IAF test pilots spread over two years.

The other four jets -- the American F/A-18 'Super Hornet' and F-16 'Super Viper', the Russian MiG-35 and Swedish Gripen - were weeded out from the hotly-contested race last year since they did not meet all the "test points".

"We went by the book, first in the extensive technical evaluation and now in the meticulous commercial evaluation, without any external factors coming into play," said the source.

For one, the "life cycle cost" of operating the Typhoon over a 40-year period, with 6,000 hours of flying, was found to be "higher" than Rafale after extensive calculations of flight costs, spares, maintenance and the like. "The life cycle costs were actually the tool to determine who was L-1 (lowest bidder)," he said.

For another, the difference in the 'direct acquisition cost', which will actually be used to ink the contract, was even bigger. "The Typhoon's commercial bid was way too high. Rafale was the clear L-1 in both life cycle as well as direct acquisition costs," he added.

Dassault will now have to submit a detailed project report on the transfer of technology (ToT) to Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). While the first 18 jets will come in "fly-away condition'' from France from mid-2015 onwards, the rest 108 fighters will subsequently be manufactured under licence by HAL over six years.

"We will negotiate each and every element in the complex project with the French. Payments, as also the 50% offsets specified in the contract, will be spread over 11 to 13 years," he said.

The first jet built in HAL is expected to roll out by 2017-2018. Thereafter, HAL will deliver six jets per year, which will go up to 20 per year later. "HAL will achieve 85% technology absorption by the end. Incidentally, Typhoon's cost of ToT was also very high," he said.

This "mother" of all defence deals will later become the "granny", as reported by TOI earlier, since India will in all probability go in for another 63 fighters after the first 126 jets.

IAF is looking at these 126 new jets, apart from the ongoing progressive induction of 272 Sukhoi-30MKIs contracted from Russia for around $12 billion, to stem its fast-eroding combat edge against Pakistan and China. IAF has already identified Ambala and Jodhpur airbases in the western sector, followed by Hashimara in the eastern sector, to house the first MMRCA squadrons.

India is now finalizing details of the stealth Indo-Russian FGFA (fifth-generation fighter aircraft) to be built in the coming decades. IAF hopes to begin inducting the first lot of the 250 to 300 FGFA from 2020 onwards, which rough calculations show will eventually cost India around $35 billion.
 

Yusuf

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Johnee, whatever you have written is derived from past experience. We need to pursue newer objectives US is not what it was. It has realized that days of poodles have gone and partnerships are in. It first tried to partner china to rule the world. China wanted everything for itself. India has no ambition to "rule" but have a place of its own where it's people can prosper.

I dont agree with all the assessments about US wanting vassals. Naha din, nayi soch is the order of the day.
 

anoop_mig25

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Saar,
right now, US funds PA. Without US' funds, PA would be useless in 1yr.
off topic but even if us stops finding PA there other who would fund them including china and some one from gulf conutries specially SA .
 

anoop_mig25

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again off topic and since seniors here are discussing ind-us realtionship i want to know what they think of present relationship of us-turkey. since present gov of turkey has done lots of things which i donot think us gov likes eg hardening position viz isreal. inviting chinese for war games , join production of militrary hardware with chinese
 

shashi

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Us recently supplied the last of the F 16s to pak.That explains the danger of trusting US completely.US might help us against China(secretly) but what if it is a two front war ?
 

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