Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

I keep a very open mind about it except few points and these are my firm beliefs
a) Rafale is not a need its want of IAF
b) we already employ more than 100 MMRCA like MiG-29 and Mirage 2000
c) If a plane is going to cost multiple times of Su-30 MKI then its not worth the price.
d) Future for IAF nos is LCA and not MMRCA or Rafake.

YES, F/A-18 E/F does not really come close to Rafale in terms of rate of turn, climb etc etc. But then are these components enough to make a plane survivable? Specially against new missiles?
No matter what the French say about their excellent tech, they will as long as possible will not try to go against Russian tech and this was apparent in Syria, the momemt the Russian air defence crusier was docked in Syria after the Su-24 was shot down, all the "allied " air force has kept well away from the Russian planes. It was a good chance for planes like Rafale to showcase their system "SPECTRA" but then its Russia, and the Russians are there with new tech Would France risk losing Rafale and hence the orders from Middle East? No.

Actually avionics will help a plane to be more survivable than perhaps the speed and maneuverability. With its better avionics it can detect a plane earlier and it can jam the enemy systems and blind them and hence only not increase its own chances of survival but also ensure that it can take down the enemy as required.
Did you not noticing that the French are not talking of rate of climb etc etc, all they talk is their new RBE2AA radar and SPECTRA..

If IAF does insist on a plane, I would support say Su-35, or more Su-30 MKI or then MiG-35 if its for "medium"
And if its in for "western" plane than Rafale and Eurofighter are equally expensive, and F/A-18 might end up being way cheaper as the Americans are now focused on 5th Gen planes.
One of the advantage of F/A-18 is that its a carrier plane, and if we use the same model (carrier plane) then we can not only use it for future carriers, but we can actually fly to the carrier based in sea, and use it as a mobile air base, and thus the carrier might not in a way be limited to just 20-40 planes it can carry, but be a based for more than 100 planes that arrive, Refuel, arm and go about the mission.




MIG-35 is one of the most maneuverable plane, and IAF does not like it at all, ITs a clean plane and can do a lot, and if we come up with an excellent avionics package, it will surely give any western plane run for its money. IT is cheap to buy, easier to use and maintain. What it lacks is ORDERS.
As I said if India really wants to go for MEDIUM MRCA, it should be MiG-35 purely because it can bring the numbers in short time. If it wants a western plane then F/A-18, but if it wants to buy any excellent plane for IAF my choice would be Su--35 or Su-30 MKI

Definitively, we are not flying in Syria to fought Russia, but Islamist terrorists. You need to create a WW3 ?

 

[BON PLAN]

Did you not noticing that the French are not talking of rate of climb etc etc, all they talk is their new RBE2AA radar and SPECTRA..

Because in term of rate of clim, manoeuvrability.... we know Rafale is on top ! And you also know that. Because it's clearly visible.

 

[BON PLAN]

Co-production of US fighter jets in India on the table
A proposal to manufacture US fighter jets on Indian soil is on the agenda of bilateral talks between US Defence Secretary Ashton Carter and Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar.
“Members of my team and industry are looking at the potential co-production of fighter aircraft,” Carter said at a discussion at the Council on Foreign Relations, New York, giving a clear hint prior to his departure.

His public comments come days after US aviation majors Boeing and Lockheed Martin gave a presentation to the Defence Ministry top brass about their proposal on producing fighter jets in India under the Make in India programme, though several officials in the defence ministry and Indian Air Force remained sceptical about the US move.
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/539959/co-production-us-fighter-jets.html

:blah::blah::blah: Tabloid story.

 

[BON PLAN]

I don't know about that exercise, but Typhoon will beat Rafale in most cases.

Source ?
I don't speak for an hypothetic future (EF will beat...) but from the real past (Rafale smashed EF in Corsica, with EF rules...)

 

[BON PLAN]

Those figures are of 2009, not of today.

Absolutely not.
180 on firm orders, and another last batch to ordered.

 

[BON PLAN]

Why? Why do you think our AMRAAM will be worse than theirs?

I don't know.
But if one of you think if PAK pilots can fly Rafale, Rafale loose its credibility, you must think the same thing about Missile. So avoid purchasing plane wich main AAM is AMRAAM. Simple logic.

 

[Superdefender]

Knowing the qualities of a fighter (ie Mig 29 by west air force) don't let it suddenly as obsolete.

In this case you can't accept an AMRAAM plane because PAK is AMRAAM equipped.

I just can not understand what you are posting. I am telling you one thing and you,replying another!

 

[BON PLAN]

Your logic is wrong. You think people will get convinced that French tech is better than American. I doubt many would buy that line of thinking.

May be with Russia, some people will accept what you say.

Russian AESA is not an issue as India is not thinking of buying Mig-35. But I am sure Indians would know its performance.

My logic is to compare a brand new (non AESA) radar with a old block 15 one. Even if french tech is not the best of the world, I can without a doubt claim the new Mirage 2000 radar is far better than those in the F16 bk15 one. Easely.
And except block 60, Mirage 2000 with RDY, RDY2, RDY3 are better than F16 radar (small nose cone).

 

[garg_bharat]

@BON PLAN, let us wait and see what exactly is on offer from the Americans and at what price.

All indications are that Americans are making a good offer. But it is not public and discussion goes on.

 

[Superdefender]

Full range of Meteor can't be fully utilised by Rafale as its radar aparatus is very small.

 

[Superdefender]

Because in term of rate of clim, manoeuvrability.... we know Rafale is on top ! And you also know that. Because it's clearly visible.

Wow, hearing this first time! Mig-35 is most manuevrable one. Rafale is best in sharp g-turns. While carrying full 9.5 ton, its range and manuevrability drop significantly.

 

[BON PLAN]

Full range of Meteor can't be fully utilised by Rafale as its radar aparatus is very small.

NOPE.

RBE2 PESA range is more than 100km against a fighter.

RBE2 AESA has 50% to 100% more range than PESA. More than enough.

 

[BON PLAN]

Wow, hearing this first time! Mig-35 is most manuevrable one. Rafale is best in sharp g-turns. While carrying full 9.5 ton, its range and manuevrability drop significantly.

Mig 35 never fight against Rafale. how could you say that? A cobra manoeuver serve to nothing in fight. It's just used to amaze the young women in the rallies.
the first turn may decide of the end of the fight.

Rafale is good to very good and in some area the best fighter of its class. Don't compare its range with a full load with a SU34 for exemple !

 

[Bahamut]

Mig 35 never fight against Rafale. how could you say that?

Its more of pilot ,both have very close spec.

A cobra manoeuver serve to nothing in fight. It's just used to amaze the young women in the rallies.
the first turn may decide of the end of the fight.

Using cobra in combat is difficult ,it has its application in defeating missile and for course to lose speed quickly ,making the enemy to overshoot you.

Rafale is good to very good and in some area the best fighter of its class. Don't compare its range with a full load with a SU34 for exemple !

Rafale is good ,but too expensive ,what Rafale can do ,a combined force of Mig 35 and Su 34 can do better and cheaper.
Any new news on deal and ToT?
Its a funny question,but can the refueling probe be retractable,it reduces drag and RCS.

 

[harsh]

Mig 35 never fight against Rafale. how could you say that? A cobra manoeuver serve to nothing in fight. It's just used to amaze the young women in the rallies.
the first turn may decide of the end of the fight.

Rafale is good to very good and in some area the best fighter of its class. Don't compare its range with a full load with a SU34 for exemple !

In air superiority missions mig 35 have decent load with very good manoeuvrability. With decent AESA radar 160 km range and good missile with thrust vectoring nozzles.
You saying rafale is good without thrust vectoring nozzles ........less than normal (small radar dome) .....

Only advantage is s shape intakes for semi stealth ( no one knows how effective semi stealth is) and 9.5 tons of load with under power 75 tons of thrust.

We don't need a bomber like su 34........even we don't need a heavy fighter who take 9.5 tons of load.
We need highly manoeuvrable and agile plane with decent load and radar and easy to maintain. Which mig 35 is. Even with growing GDP we can afford f 18 . All others are bullshit...........
Brochures don't win wars my friend you have to fight for it........... France did nothing in Syria after isis attack in paris . Russia kills ISIS with 30 odd planes and take its land. Russian bombing is effective where rafale is just show off.

 

[Bahamut]

AESA radar 160 km range

It is 250 km for the AESR range
Zhuk-MA/MAE[edit]
The first incarnation of the Zhuk radar family featuring an Active electronically scanned array (AESA) based on N031 Sokol series was introduced in 2005 at MAKS.[13] The Zhuk MA (MAE for export) used 1088 transceiver modules divide into 272 blocks and an antenna of 700 mm diameter. With a range of 200 km and ability to track 30 targets and engage 8 out of those. Was aimed for Su-27's and MiG-29's. However, the large size and weight (about 400~500 kg) it was deemed too heavy. (Official placard from 2005 MAKS contradicts this and puts the weight at 285 kg.)[14] It could be that Zhuk-MA was confused with the first Phazotron-NIIR AESA of which only the antenna was shown at MAKS 2001 [15]) Originally also known as FMG-29

Zhuk-A/AE[edit]
The second incarnation of the Zhuk radar family shown at MAKS 2007 featuring an Active electronically scanned array were the Zhuk-A (AE for export). Two variants of the Zhuk-A's exist: the FGA-29, and the bigger FGA-35.

the FGA-29 features a 575 mm antenna and 680 T/R modules. Was stated for initial stage performance to have a detection range of 120 km (Later advertised as 130 km)for 3m2 targets and able to track 30 targets and engaged 6 of those at any one time. Later the performance was raised to 148 km for detection and tracking and was expected to reach a detection range up to 250 km.[16] Work on FGA-29 was stopped. and the FGA-29 label was given to FGA-35 1016 T/R radar.

The FGA-35 featured 688mm antenna and 1016 T/R modules (originally planned 1064) with initial stage performance of a 200 km detection range for 3m2 RCS target. Later detection range was raised up to 250 km.[17] Able to track 30 targets and engage 6 of those at any one time. (Later reports mentioned capability of detecting 60 targets and tracking 30 with ability to engage 8 of those. Some western and Russian sources erroneously reporting 60 targets tracked instead of detected. ) The FGA-35 was later relabeled as FGA-29.

FGA-35(3D)[edit]
The FGA-35(3D) was first shown at MAKS in 2013. It's a GaN-based AESA, scalable, meant for various platforms with the version shown at MAKS having a 688mm antenna and 960 T/R's. FGA-35(3D) was later relabeled as FGA-35 while the original FGA-35 was relabeled as FGA-29.

 

[Superdefender]

Mig 35 never fight against Rafale. how could you say that? A cobra manoeuver serve to nothing in fight. It's just used to amaze the young women in the rallies.
the first turn may decide of the end of the fight.

Rafale is good to very good and in some area the best fighter of its class. Don't compare its range with a full load with a SU34 for exemple !

So you evaluate a fighter's manuevrability by watching its cobra manuevre!! Mig-35 is the best in this class. Rafale has low power generation and low engine thrust too. It can only perform swiftly if some friendly fighters clears the sky. So stop saying Rafale is the best in its class. It is not even funny. Typhoon is the best in medium class.

 

[Navnit Kundu]

Correct decision.
Others are doing the same.
UAE says Rafale proposal "unworkable"

LSA has also been finalized so there is a lot of water flowing behind the scenes. India wouldn't have agreed for it unless the US agreed to provide some critical tech, possibly engine tech. I'm surprised that the LSA issue isn't being vigorously discussed here, given the long and passionate debates everyone has had for so many years. Murica is trying very hard to scuttle French weapons deals wherever they can.

India, US ‘agree in principle’ to share military logistics

 

[BON PLAN]

Its a funny question,but can the refueling probe be retractable,it reduces drag and RCS.

NO.
drag penalty is very small, as impact on RCS (size and forms are adapted).
Dassault thaught too much technical complications for too few benefit.

 

[BON PLAN]

In air superiority missions mig 35 have decent load with very good manoeuvrability. With decent AESA radar 160 km range and good missile with thrust vectoring nozzles.
You saying rafale is good without thrust vectoring nozzles ........less than normal (small radar dome) .....

Only advantage is s shape intakes for semi stealth ( no one knows how effective semi stealth is) and 9.5 tons of load with under power 75 tons of thrust.

We don't need a bomber like su 34........even we don't need a heavy fighter who take 9.5 tons of load.
We need highly manoeuvrable and agile plane with decent load and radar and easy to maintain. Which mig 35 is. Even with growing GDP we can afford f 18 . All others are bullshit...........
Brochures don't win wars my friend you have to fight for it........... France did nothing in Syria after isis attack in paris . Russia kills ISIS with 30 odd planes and take its land. Russian bombing is effective where rafale is just show off.

FOR SYRIA : The result is there, indeed.
BUT :
- targets were at 100km from runaway for russian and helo plane. The "same" targets were at thousandS km for french plane.
- We only had 6/9 Rafale in UAE and 6/8 Mirage 2000 in Jordania.
- Russia fight to help Bachar regime, so as to keep the Tartous naval (and SAM and air force) base. Not our case.
- It's well known russian technic is to bomb a large zone, even with school, hospital, civilian .... We are making huge reco and positive target identification before a shoot.