Know Your 'Rafale'

[smestarz]

YES surely,
India was trying to keep sanctity of Pakistan space.
Though India and pakistan were not at war (it was suppsoed to be terrorists then remember) so the Mirage 2000 when they went near Pak border the PAF F-16 locked on Mirage 2000 and that is natural but they did not fire.
Either you can view this from PAF point of view where PAF planes warned the Mirage 2000 by locking on them that they were in their sights and IAF countered them by locking them with MiG-29 thus ensuring status quo of the border. Else another and more jingoistic and acceptable version in india is that PAF F-16 tried to lock on the Mirage 2000 and MiG-29 locked on the F-16 and kept them at bay..

So you can select whatever statment you like as per your choice. But the fact is that unlike in Greek-Turkey, India pakistan is more difficult and dangerous situation and yet the pilots on both sides locked on each other, but knowing that the other is not aggresssive (or crossing the border) opted NOT TO SHOOT,.Would the PAF F-16 fired on Mirage 2000 ,if it had crossed the border even after being locked, perhaps then the matter would have escalated

@smestarz

So once again it was not the jets but the A2A munitions that they carried that made it difficult. I see that you still haven't commented on OUR MiG29s locking onto the Napaki Solahs and forcing them to turn tail. If not for operational rules in place, there would have been 2 downed Solahs over occupied G-B.

Care to comment on that?

 

[smestarz]

And some of them did it more cost effectively in Paris also 5000 + few kms from their..

Better value for money.. JUST AN EXAMPLE

It's what the islamic terrorists in Mali said. They were smashed, on their land, at 5000km from ours.

Just an exemple.

 

[smestarz]

Compare the cost of France sending planes and killing few terrorists (by the way, France did not finish it at all, seems France always keeps it work incomplete) But on other hand, these "terrorists" managed to do the same at better value for money.
No expensive plane, no maintenance, or spares etc .
France is going nowhere, nor are your examples

It's what the islamic terrorists in Mali said. They were smashed, on their land, at 5000km from ours.

Just an exemple.

 

[Screambowl]

1) in peace time you have to positively identify the opponent, so move closer.

How closer that depends on the ground beneath.

IF IOR is the region then for India with Rafales it would become more easier to identify.

 

[Screambowl]

@smestarz

So once again it was not the jets but the A2A munitions that they carried that made it difficult. I see that you still haven't commented on OUR MiG29s locking onto the Napaki Solahs and forcing them to turn tail. If not for operational rules in place, there would have been 2 downed Solahs over occupied G-B.

Care to comment on that?

I would rather like to see M2K Vs F16s over GB
....................................................................

 

[smestarz]

Not only that, but also the capability and experience of the pilot, Also how effective your EW suite is and can you counter your opponents

Yeah but nowdays, it all depends on just 2 BVR AAM and a powerful radar. No one lets you come closer than 30NM

 

[smestarz]

GB? Great Britain?
France would supply the M2K who supplies the F-16? The dutch have older versions ,just in case

I would rather like to see M2K Vs F16s over GB
....................................................................

 

[smestarz]

Unfortunately for you the bases where Rafales would be stationed by India are thousands of kms from Ocean. Just seems that there is a lot of spin about ability of Rafales. Unfortunately just a lot of spin, far from fact.

How closer that depends on the ground beneath.

IF IOR is the region then for India with Rafales it would become more easier to identify.

 

[Armand2REP]

F-15E is >>>>>>> Rafale,,
When compared to F-15, Rafale is hardly anything.

When compared to Rafale, the F-15 is a death trap.

 

[smestarz]

BTW just to add. PAF has more than 500 AIM-120 C-5 (I am telling you the model no too) since 2010
AdlA does it have Meteor? I dont think so, right? hmmm

Indian Mirage 2000 were pure fighter ("C" model). They were used as air to ground laser bomber because NO OTHER DEDICATED PLANE CAN DO IT AT THIS ALTUTUDE.
Now these M2000 are upgraded (very slowly... 7/year. Congrats HAL) to a "-5" model and can cary simultaneously MICA and a SCALP, or 2 laser bombs or 4 iron bombs.

First F16 can only carry Sidewinder (no AMRAAM) and no laser bombs. don't forget it.

 

[Screambowl]

GB? Great Britain?
France would supply the M2K who supplies the F-16? The dutch have older versions ,just in case

My Bad
correction:
F16 Vs LCA Mk2 not M2000 over Gilgit Baltistan

 

[smestarz]

Is that why the French only send their planes in countries which have no SAMs?

When compared to Rafale, the F-15 is a death trap.

 

[smestarz]

LCA MK2? I guess the F-16 that PAF has would be retired by then, Mk2 does not even have a prototype,

My Bad
correction:
F16 Vs LCA Mk2 not M2000 over Gilgit Baltistan

 

[Screambowl]

Unfortunately for you the bases where Rafales would be stationed by India are thousands of kms from Ocean. Just seems that there is a lot of spin about ability of Rafales. Unfortunately just a lot of spin, far from fact.

That would depend on the need and their ability to carry ASM.
Sometimes I feel that IN should have bought atleast one SQN of rafales to be stationed on IAC2

 

[smestarz]

You qualify Saudis as excellent pilots? Really?
BTW the last one that you are saying about F-15 shot down in libya,
Do read some comments on the video too
No evidence of SAM damage to engines. Relatively flat / nose down crash profile suggests unrecoverable flat spin / lose of control surface response. It happens in training too. Still time to go.

Also

22 March: One USAF F-15E flying from Aviano crashed in Bu Marim, northwest of Benghazi. The pilot was rescued alive by US Marines from the 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit based on the USS Kearsarge. The weapons systems officer evaded hostile forces and was subsequently repatriated by undisclosed forces.[196][197] The aircraft crashed due to a mechanical failure.[198] The rescue operation involved two Bell-Boeing V-22 Osprey aircraft, two Sikorsky CH-53 Sea Stallion helicopters, and two McDonnell Douglas AV-8B Harrier II aircraft, all launched from the USS Kearsarge.[199] The operation involved the Harriers' dropping 227 kg (500 lb) bombs and strafing the area around the crash site before an Osprey recovered at least one of the downed aircraft's crew;[199][200] injuring six local civilians in the process.[201][202]"

French are really getting desperate, hahahaha

When compared to Rafale, the F-15 is a death trap.

 

[smestarz]

Well the French are trying to push for it, unfortunately Rafale M does not have folding wings and may not qualify,
The two options that Qualify would be MiG-29K or F/A-18 E/F
For Rafale to qualify the expense would be too high
Either the French make it Folding wings and they want Indian navy to pay for this which would reach close to billion (my speculation) else we have to change the design and size of the lift (and also for that we pay a few hundred million dollars)

That would depend on the need and their ability to carry ASM.
Sometimes I feel that IN should have bought atleast one SQN of rafales to be stationed on IAC2

 

[Screambowl]

Well the French are trying to push for it, unfortunately Rafale M does not have folding wings and may not qualify,
The two options that Qualify would be MiG-29K or F/A-18 E/F
For Rafale to qualify the expense would be too high
Either the French make it Folding wings and they want Indian navy to pay for this which would reach close to billion (my speculation) else we have to change the design and size of the lift (and also for that we pay a few hundred million dollars)

HAL has expertize in this regard. They have designed folding wings for Mig29K

 

[Armand2REP]

Is that why the French only send their planes in countries which have no SAMs?

Libya, Syria... how many countries with long range SAMs has Su-30 bombed recently?

 

[Sancho]

NO,
CFT add drag and reduce agility. It's the case on F16, F15 and will be the case on SH. Just have a look at : they are never so sharpened than the rest of the frame.

Compared to a clean config, but the comparison is to external fuel tanks.

An F18 B3 with CFTs, doesn't not have drag to a config with external fuel tanks.

YES,
They are better for RCS than a classical cylindrical external tank (but why not studied external tanks shaped as a SCALP ?)

Because they are still external mountings on the wings, while CFTs are mounted on the airframe and delete wing payloads. So they reduce RCS and free stations, while shaped fuel tanks still block stations, add drag due to the design and still won't reduce RCS much.

CFT studied for Rafale were 1150 liters. What about SH 3 ones?

1500l, therfore sufficient not only for A2A missions without external fuel tanks, but also for A2G, while a centerline tank, further adds range.
Rafales CFTs have less capacity than it's supersonic tanks, which means they still would need a centerline tank for A2A and certainly for A2G as well.

 

[Sancho]

If the SH was as good as you say it is you would think it would have more export success, especially considering it is cheaper and has the American lobby behind it.

Simple logic should tell you, that a fighter designed for the navy, can't be an export success (how many exports does the Rafale M has?). That's why the US had the F15 and F16s and now the F35, aimed on Air Forces primarily and with far more export success of course.

Not to mention that despite Rafale being one of the best 4.5th gen fighters, it's exports are far from being a success story. So there are always more factors that makes a fighter a success or not (Dassaults ego problem for example).