Know Your 'Rafale'

[Bahamut]

India is paying for two bases of Rafale. To only station one squadron per base is absurd so they will at least double the order.

With more ToT only........................................................................................

 

[SarcasmXXL]

The way the current deal evolved (36 instead 18 of initial Made in France Rafale?) I suspect a follow-on Make in India Rafale could be simmering under covers. Not sure if that would be 90 as it would mean another 20-22 billions (1/10th of Porkis GDP LOL).

 

[indiandefencefan]

India signs $9bn deal to buy French fighter jets
World's biggest arms importer agrees to buy 36 jets, ending 18 months of wrangling over terms.

India has signed a deal to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets from France for around $8.7bn, the country's first major acquisition of combat planes in two decades and a boost for Prime Minister Narendra Modi's plan to rebuild an ageing fleet.

The first ready-to-fly Rafales are expected to arrive by 2019 and India is set to have all 36 within six years.

French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian signed the agreement with his Indian counterpart, Manohar Parrikar, in New Delhi, on Friday, ending almost 18 months of wrangling over terms between New Delhi and manufacturer Dassault Aviation.

Parrikar said the deal would "significantly improve India's strike and defence capabilities".

Air force officials have warned for years of a major capability gap opening up with China and Pakistan without new state-of-the-art planes, as India's outdated and largely Russian-made fleet retires and production of a locally made plane was delayed.

India had originally awarded Dassault with an order for 126 Rafales in 2012 after the twin-engine fourth-generation fighter beat rivals in a decade-long selection process, but subsequent talks collapsed.

Modi, who has vowed to modernise India's armed forces with a $150bn spending spree, personally intervened in April 2015 to agree on the smaller order of 36 and give the air force a near-term boost as he weighed options for a more fundamental overhaul.

But an industry expert says the deal does not stand to benefit India.

"I don't think it's a good deal," Bharat Karnad, a research professor in national security studies at the Centre for Policy Reseach, told Al Jazeera.

"The original deal was for 126 aircrafts for a sum of $12-15bn. If you look at 36 being bought for $9bn without any transfer of technology, it ends up being a solution to ensure the health of the aviation sector in France.

"The aircrafts are far too few to have a great operation significance in war."

Al Jazeera's Natacha Butler, reporting from Paris, said there was a lot of lobbying that took place behind the scenes to make this deal happen.

"It's a big deal indeed for France and is expected to create up to 5,000 jobs here," she said.

"The 36 planes will be built here before being sent to India ready for service. At many stages, it looked as if it wasn't going to be signed but the French government and President Francois Hollande have been very instrumental and lobbied hard over the years."

'Mark of recognition'
Friday's agreement is a major vote of confidence in the Rafale, which had long struggled to find buyers overseas, despite heavy lobbying efforts by the administration of President Hollande.

Hollande hailed the deal as recognition of France's aviation industry.

"The agreement ... is a mark of the recognition by a major military power of the operational performance, the technical quality and the competitiveness of the French aviation industry," Hollande said in a statement.

India says its locally made Tejas fighter, which took to the skies in July 33 years after it was cleared for development, will form a major part of its future fleet, but Parrikar has also said that India needed 100 new light combat aircraft by 2020 to replace Russian MiG-21s.

India is the world's biggest arms importer, and despite Modi's pledge to build a local manufacturing base, foreign defence firms view India as one of the most lucrative markets as Western states trim defence budgets.

Tensions have flared up between Pakistan and India following the Uri attack last week that killed 17 soldiers in Indian-administered Kashmir.

Pakistan Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, at his UN General Assembly address on Wednesday, said he did not want an "arms race with India". But Eenam Gambhir, India's UN diplomat called the neighbours "a terrorist state", blaming the neighbouring country of planning the attack in Uri.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/...-buy-french-fighter-jets-160923102728743.html

 

[Bahamut]

I expect more aggressive marketing after election if right wing party comes to power

 

[SarcasmXXL]

Secondhand F-16's are just better than even new Rafale's, in term of quality, measures and operational permutes wartime and in every perspective it's better than this.

Range Winner: F-16
The F-16 can fly 280 nautical miles farther than the Dassault.

Relative to Class Averages:
Fighter Plane: 869.5 nm

Rafale: +1,130.5 nm

F-16 : +1,410.5 nm

I am new here, please help where is BIG BIG BIG LOL icon......

 

[Imaxxx]

Secondhand F-16's are just better than even new Rafale's, in term of quality, measures and operational permutes wartime and in every perspective it's better than this.

Range Winner: F-16
The F-16 can fly 280 nautical miles farther than the Dassault.

Relative to Class Averages:
Fighter Plane: 869.5 nm

Rafale: +1,130.5 nm

F-16 : +1,410.5 nm

Clearly a military aviation expert from paf. Respect his analysis. It is now in the open that paf measures superiority of fighter planes by range alone.:biggrin2:

 

[SarcasmXXL]

I am new here, please help where is BIG BIG BIG LOL icon......

For Porkis F-16 is Raptor, JF-17 is PAK FA and 250 billion is dream come true GDP, ROLF

 

[Bahamut]

Secondhand F-16's are just better than even new Rafale's, in term of quality, measures and operational permutes wartime and in every perspective it's better than this.

Range Winner: F-16
The F-16 can fly 280 nautical miles farther than the Dassault.

Relative to Class Averages:
Fighter Plane: 869.5 nm

Rafale: +1,130.5 nm

F-16 : +1,410.5 nm

RAFALE vs Typhoon/Eurofighter, F-16s, and more…andevenF-22Raptor! Guess which gives the others a rough ride?
Posté le décembre 20, 2009 de Recce

RAFALE to defeat any other fighter aircraft? Photo:© Mass Communication Specialist 3rd Class Ricardo J. Reyes

Strange as it may seem, the French have not managed to export Rafale fighter aircraft so far…

However, the Rafale has been deemed to be an excellent fighter aircraft so many times – formidable in dogfighting, awesome when it strikes, and its superb CATIA-designed streamlining turns it into a feline grace nonetheless redoubtable whenever it is to be challenged in the skies.

There have already been rumours such as:

– Rafales – thanks to its RCS (Radar Cross Section) – would have beaten F/A-18s Hornet.

– After several dogfights reported between the Rafale and the Raptor, ( Rafale vs F-22 Raptor: 1 – 1 , according to the rumours ) BVR engagement exercises would have been cancelled. Another version deems that F-22s never took part in such exercises, so what did they do there at that time? Sightseeing? Not to mention the F-22’s withdrawal at the Paris Air Show 2009…

– The Rafale was onboard American CVs (aircraft carriers) in 2007, 2008, and 2009. The rumour in forums spread about American fighter aircraft that could not stand the Rafales’ level of performance during exercises.

But who knows, actually? However, some other elements have also been reported. They do not come from forums or blogs. So, can they be called « rumours »?

For instance, I still remember an article from The New York Times dated July 16th 2006. It was reported that the Rafales could outfly F-15, F-16 and F-18 opponents in dogfights. They also won against F-15s and Eurofighter Typhoons in technical and performance evaluations . The American media paid tribute to the French jet but almost nobody knew that in France at that time. How bizarre… Well, it must be admitted that there is a curious fad in France that consists in criticizing everything that works.

Remember, according to French TF1 channel in 2008… This was the balance sheet:

FAF Rafales vs USAF F-16s : 6 – 2
Moreover, the former Red Arrows team leader – Peter Collins – stated last month that it should be done justice to this aircraft for the Rafale would be according to him – as he had just flown a standard F3 Rafale – a « war-fighter par excellence ». He added that he deemed the Rafale to be the best and most complete combat aircraft that he had ever flown. He concluded in saying that if he had to go into combat, on any mission, against anyone, he would, without question, choose the Rafale.

Last but not least, the French Rafales would have slammed – if I may put it this way – the other aircraft in an exercise in the UAE – United Arab Emirates. Even the F-22 Raptor – though 5th generation fighter – could hardly do anything to « tame » this tough challenger. According to Jean-Marc Tanguy’s information, defence journalist, the balance sheet lies in the figures hereafter:

Dogfighting (with Rafale weapons system’s performance lowered on purpose):

FAF Rafales vs RAF Typhoons : 4 – 0
Dogfighting with further Rafale weapons system reduction:

FAF Rafales vs RAF Typhoons : 3 – 1
Final balance sheet (in both scenarii the Rafales did not have full weapons systems…):

FAF Rafales vs RAF Typhoons : 7 – 1
Not to mention Rafales outperform F-16CJs in targeting while in air-to-air and ground attacks thanks to the Rafale’s FSO – Front Sector Optronic.

I read from a remarkable Swiss aviation specialist’s website: AVIA NEWS. Pascal – AVIA NEWS webmaster – let me quote his analysis according to which the Rafale obtained the best score (95%) among the fighter aircraft evaluated for choosing which will replace the Swiss Air Force’s F-5 Tiger. The other two competitors were the SAAB JAS-39 Gripen, and the Eurofighter / Typhoon.

Furthermore, the Dutch did compare various fighter aircraft in 2002. Who remembers? The RNLAF – the Royal Netherlands Air Force – carried out this study and the balance sheet came out in the Dutch press:

Here are the ratings reported:
F-35 = 6.97

RAFALE = 6.95

Eurofighter = 5.83

F-16 Block 60 = 5.80

Well, we must admit that the JSF / F-35 Lightning II is the best fighter among those that were assessed. However it was a close shave, wasn’t it?

You will find an excerpt below of Jean-Marc Tanguy’s post from his blog « Le Mamouth« :


Rafale on deck – U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 3rd Class Ricardo J. Reyes
La première confrontation engageant quatre Rafale contre quatre Typhoon s’est terminée par un 4-0 en faveur des Français. Malgré, explique-t-on, l’emport d’un armement air-air fictivement dégradé. Après avoir un peu dégradé encore l’armement, le Rafale l’a encore emporté, 3-1.
Le Rafale a été confronté au F22 lors d’un vol, mais dans un cadre limité au combat air-air à vue. Il n’aurait été dans le collimateur du chasseur américain qu’ à une reprise, explique t-on aussi. CLIQUEZ ICI pour lire L’ARTICLE ENTIER en français

Citation du Mamouth – Le Mamouth courtesy

Photos: U.S. Air Force Link

 

[airtel]

according to Tejas MRCA page , cost of one Rafael is 85 million $ .........................rest of the money will be spend on bases , modifications like new more powerful engine , Israeli systems like helmet mounted display ,missiles like mica , meteor etc & integrating Indian weapons like Astra , bramhos .................

 

[SarcasmXXL]

Clearly a military aviation expert from paf. Respect his analysis. It is now in the open that paf measures superiority of fighter planes by range alone.:biggrin2:

Even if that is true how big is Pakistan 500 x 1000 KM, Ooops and Baluchistan is not there part anyway

 

[SarcasmXXL]

according to Tejas MRCA page , cost of one Rafael is 85 million $ .........................rest of the money will be spend on bases , modifications like new more powerful engine , Israeli systems like helmet mounted display ,missiles like mica , meteor etc & integrating Indian weapons like Astra , bramhos .................

And I guess maintenance package and training as well. As per DNA "Pleased to inform that India has signed an agreement for procurement of 36 Rafale aircraft with weapon systems, five years complete spares and maintenance, performance based logistics, India specific special provisions. This is an achievement which will give the IAF the required potency in terms of penetration and capability," Parrikar told reporters at the South Block."

 

[Pulkit]

I don't repeat you mate, I have presented my views here. You think, Russia is only for weapons sale market? NO, as recent American Think tanks suggested that Russia would be more tend to focus towards those countries, which America and its allies are far from them. Meanwhile, your country is near to America and Russia knows, so he is thinking to strategist its imagery, he should seek new friends, so that's why today he is here as a new friend of Pakistan China brothers.

That was really hilarious ....
in the international communities relationships changes with money power.


THis is only to make India feel that India is loosing a friend by making new Friend USA.

There are few deals in pipeline once they are matured Russia will no longer need you...

Waise
Cherry on the top was statement........ "Pakistan China brothers".....it was more like "slaves".....hehe

 

[Pulkit]

Please don't abuse my country as I have not of yours, soon you would hear the news like this " Pakistan received 40 batches of fresh su-35's, based on with first steps to a friendship concession on normal prices. So, Next step would be to give a talk of SAM S-400. Bravo :biggrin2:

Oh Really great....
Chalo time will tell us better....

 

[SarcasmXXL]

Please don't abuse my country as I have not of yours, soon you would hear the news like this " Pakistan received 40 batches of fresh su-35's, based on with first steps to a friendship concession on normal prices. So, Next step would be to give a talk of SAM S-400. Bravo :biggrin2:

Well no intent to do what the world is doing.
Question - you couldn't pay USA for few F-16s (800 Millions). 40 Su-35s would be definitely more than 6 Billions and then you have to pay for s-400 - how are you gonna finance this.

I am not sure Russia would give you any discount and I would stretch further that I doubt they will sell S-400.

 

[Imaxxx]

Even if that is true how big is Pakistan 500 x 1000 KM, Ooops and Baluchistan is not there part anyway

Offtopic: By limiting the narrative to Balochistan, we are doing ourselves a big disfavor. There is a significant resentment in Sind province against the domination of pakjabis in all spheres of governance both civvy and military. Just like Balochisthan, this is ripe for the picking. But this is for more discussions in another thread.

 

[Bahamut]

Pakistan received 40 batches of fresh su-35's, based on with first steps to a friendship concession on normal prices. So, Next step would be to give a talk of SAM S-400. Bravo :biggrin2:

Just tell the cost of these item..................................................................

 

[Bahamut]

Of course, these costs would be in the billions, but I think we would some how persuade them or will try some sudden arrangements to negotiate a deal in terms of discounts a little much than expected. But, if the oil prices rose chances are less. But, I am still hoping

Forget discount they have ton of countries ready to buy their weapons ,if you cannot pay ,they will simply sell it another country,The combine will be close to 10$billion USD and you cannot afford it .Just tell what is your entire defense budget ?

 

[Filtercoffee]

They have as they say a black budget and secret ties with some major super power. Don't think of them as such they are always hoping.

 

[ezsasa]

Chalo good, one less outrage to worry about.....

Bhai log, what is the next outrage ??????:blah:
what else modi govt is not doing right...

 

[republic_roi97]

Of course, these costs would be in the billions, but I think we would some how persuade them or will try some sudden arrangements to negotiate a deal in terms of discounts a little much than expected. But, if the oil prices rose chances are less. But, I am still hoping

Bhai kyo apna popat bana rahe ho ?
You will never have a Su-35, because its not just about buying a Sukhoi, you will have to buy its weapon system, you have to upgrade your systems, air bases, it is going to cost you guys billions of dollars in double digit figures, not to mention the maintenance costs and service life upgrades, its just too much costly for you guys to operate, you would have to postpone (if not cancel) all your expenditure including maintenance and every other defence expenditure for nearly 10-15 years in order to just cover up the cost of the Sukhoi and accessories. Kangal ho jaoge tum log.