Know Your 'Rafale'

Tactical Frog

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Let' s all relax ... if everything goes smoothly IAF will be a wonderfully scary airforce in three years , with lot of upgraded Jaguar and Mirage 2000, one Rafale squadron, and the giant Sukhoi 30 MKI / Mig 29 fleet .
I really loved that photo of UAE Mirage 2000 " escorted " by Indian Sukhoi 30 MKI. Gives a good idea of the power of Indian airforce , which aligns such planes in numbers !
 

BON PLAN

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In none of the conflicts that India fought, no french aircraft was the show stopper (Show stopper means Star)
1971 it was the Hunters which created the most impact at Longewal, We did use French planes, but they were like the nameless extras in movie.

Everyone knows that Mirage 2000 had to be escorted by MiG-29 so as to avoid F-16 humping Mirage 2000
Try not to give the turkish example.. where Mirage 2000 shot down F-16 trainer aircraft .
1) Mirage 2000, before "-5" model was unable to carry simultaneously AtoA medium range missile and AtoG weapons.... so.... you had to make a choice. But it was Mirage2000 which made a decisiv breakthrough in Kargil. Now your upgraded Mirage (and tomorrow Rafale) can do the dual missions simultaneously.
2) It was not a trainer, it was a fully operational dual seat F16 (F16D). And this particular turkish F16D was flown by skilled pilots. I even don't know if a dedecated trainer F16 exist.
 

sasum

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Sorry , but the Mystere IV was not a nameless extra in the 1965 war with Pakistan. And Mirage 2000 was a decisive asset in Kargil war, period.
Dassault has a long standing relationship with India, whether you like it or not.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Galleries/Aircraft/Vintage/Fighters/Mystere/
Do not quote such obscure source. Tomorrow you may quote @BON PLAN 's posts as source material. Fact is, the 2 non-descript planes - Ouragan and Mystere were used just once, for minor roles, during capture of Portuguese administered Goa. Indian Authority encountered very little resistance. The 3 real wars India fought against Pak were with the help of Folland Gnat (later upgraded as Ajeet), Hunter, Vampire - all British and SU-7 and Mig-21. Out of these Gnat and Mig-21 stood out. I am sure nobody heard about Ouragan & Mystere including Trappier..that is why, Dassault Chief (wrongly) mentioned only Mirage. Kargil was not a full-fledged war, it was a border skirmish. IAF bombed India's own territory to flush out Pakis. Neither Army nor Air Force crossed LoC.
 

Tactical Frog

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Do not quote such obscure source. Tomorrow you may quote @BON PLAN 's posts as source material. Fact is, the 2 non-descript planes - Ouragan and Mystere were used just once, for minor roles, during capture of Portuguese administered Goa. Indian Authority encountered very little resistance. The 3 real wars India fought against Pak were with the help of Folland Gnat (later upgraded as Ajeet), Hunter, Vampire - all British and SU-7 and Mig-21. Out of these Gnat and Mig-21 stood out. I am sure nobody heard about Ouragan & Mystere including Trappier..that is why, Dassault Chief (wrongly) mentioned only Mirage. Kargil was not a full-fledged war, it was a border skirmish. IAF bombed India's own territory to flush out Pakis. Neither Army nor Air Force crossed LoC.
You don' t know Eric Trappier .. he spent his whole career at Dassault. But when talking to a French newspaper like Les Echos , he has to simplify ... even if the specialist like you is shocked after ;)
 

manutdfan

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You don't know me and my activity on this forum, don't you?
So you are trying to lay your crap on a person you don't even know.
It is a sign of ill manners and bad education.
If you cannot operate the facts, than why do you believe your oppinion worth something?
You should more read than wright just like our frenchie friends :)
hey kid good to see that you have finally learnt some manners. i don't give a crap about your past 3000+ odd pile of shit.
it's you who should check my history. we're on the same side of the fence dumbo. i don't blame you, it's your shitty upbringing and lack of education's fault.
only difference is that you lack foresight and blindly believe whatever batshit is written in your state controlled media. we're a democracy unlike you so we have a better perspective of things.
if you have any differences keep it civil and you might just change my mind. and i guarantee i'll acknowledge you and be grateful to you for that.
when i started on this thread i was pro-Rafale but after a couple of very civil and insightful discussions with a couple of members i'm now 60/40 anti-Rafale. so double check b4 giving your half ass opinions or opening your joke of a trap.
 

BON PLAN

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AMX-30 had modern gun with high ballistics and modern cumulative and solid rod penetrators. So this is not the case to compare. Modern Russian high ballistic 57mm gun can easily penetrate AMX-30, but WW2 tanks cannot.

Отправлено с моего XT1080 через Tapatalk
AMX30 armor is light. 50 to 80mm molded and rolled steel. no chobam like armor.
I'm sure a 75mm Panther gun penetrate it (89 mm penetrated from 2 000 meters with Panzergranate 39/42)
 

AnantS

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Mirage 2000 was a game changer in Kargil as it enabled India to lob LGB on Himalyan Peaks. Its another story that French played tantrums about integrating Israeli munitions on Mirage.

Mig 29 provided CAP during Kargil. Interestingly Mig 29 at that time had BVR capability whereas Paki F 16 had none. So latter maintained their distance.(Other factor bing low F16 serviceability the Paki airforce was facing at that time)
 

gadeshi

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I gave up on him. He is an unwashed, demented slum-dog. Doesn't even deserve a response.
Thanks for a good advice, man! :)
I won't spend my breath on the guy with manners of a slumdog who's sources are wikipedia and the like.

Отправлено с моего XT1080 через Tapatalk
 

manutdfan

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looks like the two retards have formed a frat. god what a sorry ass group it's gonna be. reigned supreme by the idiots. btw stop barking whenever i post something that doesn't concern the two of you jobless tools.
 
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ersakthivel

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are they asking now, or from 1990s



Can you tell me when will our Tejas will fire a BVR missile, is the data link between MKI and Tejas tested



Yes we need all available aircraft in our arsenal, let's say variety of fighters all over from the world

Suck the trainings and commonality shit
Ask Manohar Parrikar when will tejas fire Derby missile & he will tell you!!!
Surprisingly french are standardizing mostly on rafales for future!!! not needing variety!!

Surprisingly (uncomfortably for some!!) it seems manohar PArrikar knows something more about tejas which was later endorsed by IAF chief Aroop raha , when he said that " there is no doubt in IAF about tejas's fighting capability"

Tejas to replace MiG as key fighter

Majority of the 250 planes will be phased out in 15 years, says Parrikar.
Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said the indigenously developed Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas would be the mainstay of the Indian Air Force and would likely replace the entire MIG-21 fleet of almost 250 fighters.

The Minister’s statement is significant given the recent noises emanating from the Ministry, hinting at the possibility of another single-engine fighter being considered to make up for the shortfall of fighters. In the past, the IAF had been reluctant to fully back the domestic Tejas programme.

“LCA is mainstay. There will be seven squadrons of it. It is 3-4 times better than MiG-21s,” he told The Hindu on Thursday giving an overview of the IAF modernisation plans.

About 250 MiG-21s were in service, most of which would be phased out in the next 10-15 years, Mr. Parrikar said, adding that they would be “replaced by the LCA and another single-engine fighter.”

Asked if another single-engine fighter was under consideration, he declined to confirm.

“We may consider. I have not said we are looking. Tomorrow we may decide to have everything from Tejas. The second version of Tejas, which is an improved version, is coming into production after the first two squadrons,” he said.


Mirage and Jaguar upgrade programmes were currently under way which, Mr. Parrikar said, would add 10-30 years to their life.

“In five to six years, we should start getting new double-engine fighters, not Rafales only,” he stated.

The improved version of LCA referred to as Mk-1A with four major improvements over the Mk-1 variant has been offered by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) as an interim measure in view of the delay in LCA-MK2.

Mr. Parrikar said the third squadron with 1A would be a highly improved version, which was under trials. “Those special additives are under trial like firing a Bond Visual Range (BVR) missile etc,” he said.

‘LCA has limitations’
However, the LCA being a single-engine, light-weight fighter, it has its limitations, which is why another twin-engine fighter would be needed other than the Rafale, Mr. Parrikar stated.

“Functionally, the LCA is better than many other foreign fighters. It reacts very smoothly, fly-by-wire, its turn radius is very good, manoeuvrability is very good but it has limitation in the sense that it is a light combatant… It cannot go into deep penetration… It is mostly good for dogfights in your own sky or to degrade the opponent Army’s command posts,” Mr. Parrikar observed and added that “we need more twin-engine fighters for deep penetration.”

Source: The Hindu

But Manohar parrikar is in no hurry to take a 20 billion dollar bet on rafale, he seems to be of the opinion with super sukhoi upgrade tejas versions & SU-30 MKI will be good enough till AMCA, FGFA arrive,

And by courting all other fighter makers for "another twin engined fighter in IAF" he has frankly made it clear that options are open on twin engined fighter front, in case govt cant afford rafale's price & find the "conditions" on rafale deal by french unsatisfactory
 
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ersakthivel

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Its better we have to give the G suit to the Politicians to fly those jets and also give a mission to breach Pakistani airspace.

Nowadays Service persons loosing their credibility that Idiot politicians over ruling them

Parrikar is a shit
http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/india/indian-arms-dealers-the-defence-dynasty

I too share your concerns regarding the falling credibility of defence personnel,

However even without putting on a G suit manohar parrikar's chpoice of tejas mk1A combo was summarily endorsed by present Airchief Aroop Raha, who was pleased as peach & announced happily, "Tejas is a good fighter to induct in IAF,"

he sure knows that whether tejas will fire a Derby or not!!!
 

SajeevJino

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Do not quote such obscure source. Tomorrow you may quote @BON PLAN 's posts as source material. Fact is, the 2 non-descript planes - Ouragan and Mystere were used just once, for minor roles, during capture of Portuguese administered Goa. Indian Authority encountered very little resistance. The 3 real wars India fought against Pak were with the help of Folland Gnat (later upgraded as Ajeet), Hunter, Vampire - all British and SU-7 and Mig-21. Out of these Gnat and Mig-21 stood out. I am sure nobody heard about Ouragan & Mystere including Trappier..that is why, Dassault Chief (wrongly) mentioned only Mirage. Kargil was not a full-fledged war, it was a border skirmish. IAF bombed India's own territory to flush out Pakis. Neither Army nor Air Force crossed LoC.
Bharath Rakshak is a obscure source ... My fifty paise
 

sasum

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http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/india/indian-arms-dealers-the-defence-dynasty

I too share your concerns regarding the falling credibility of defence personnel,

However even without putting on a G suit manohar parrikar's chpoice of tejas mk1A combo was summarily endorsed by present Airchief Aroop Raha, who was pleased as peach & announced happily, "Tejas is a good fighter to induct in IAF,"
he sure knows that whether tejas will fire a Derby or not!!!
In 2003, the then DM, George Fernandez, flied in a MIG-21, when a few novice pilots were bad-mouthing Mig-21 as "Flying Coffin". This he did at the age of 73, and despite being a patient of hypertension, just to nail the lie.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3115547.stm
 

sasum

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Mirage and Jaguar upgrade programmes were currently under way which, Mr. Parrikar said, would add 10-30 years to their life.
What are the life-spans of Airframes of Mirage & Jaguar? Considering both are 3rd gen with all metal body? Can they last another 10-15 years, even if flown 100 hrs. per year?
 

smestarz

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A big IF no?
Upgraded Jaguars and Mirage 2000 will be OK against PAF, against PLAAF, the only dependable plane would be Su-30 MKI, In case of PLAAF, Rafale also joins the other "French collaboration" planes as cannon fodder.. MiG-29 is more capable than Jaguar or Mirage 2000 but it wont be able to do much against Chinese Su-35, Rafale included

Let' s all relax ... if everything goes smoothly IAF will be a wonderfully scary airforce in three years , with lot of upgraded Jaguar and Mirage 2000, one Rafale squadron, and the giant Sukhoi 30 MKI / Mig 29 fleet .
I really loved that photo of UAE Mirage 2000 " escorted " by Indian Sukhoi 30 MKI. Gives a good idea of the power of Indian airforce , which aligns such planes in numbers !
 

smestarz

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Point by point
What we had in IAF was not the most modern, so by your admission what Mirage 2000 India had was crap, so either A2A or A2G and hence it did need Mig-29 from getting it Vaped by PAF F-16.. we are getting headway somewhere

Mirage 2000 was not decisive, but did help in the effort, There is a big difference. But how did Mirage 2000 get to use? With help of HAL/DRDO and Israeli help. Not much of french help.
And if Mirage was not able to conduct those missions, Perhaps Mirage 2000 would be perhspa along with MiG-21 to be retired by 2017.

The upgraded Mirage 2000 is still useless, does not really have strong A2A capabbility, in my view, it is slightly more capable than Jaguar in A2A, but Jaguar does better in A2G.. take your pick.

If Rafale was 60 million a plane and say 90 million including 10 years spares and weapons, it would have been worth the price, but since its not.. guess not

RE: Turkey, F-16 incident, this might really blow you up and you really might believe there is world outside france.
Do research and read it better, The pilot was on training mission, The pilot in the second seat was Lt Colonel in Turkish air force who had just come back from being a Military Attache in UK

"Turkish pilot Lt. Col Cemil Cicekli who just returned from U.K after serving two years as a military attache. The claim of back seater was IDF pilot came from someone in Greece(probably from HAF) saying that rescued pilot did not speak Turkish but speaking good English...I dont see the relationship of speaking good english and being IDF pilot? Lt Col Cicekli later explainded that he did not talk to Greek officers in Turkish but they asked questions in English. I also personally watched Greek TV show in my cable channel in US after the shot down, Lt Col Cicekli was talking to the press in English. So, IDF pilot claim is totally bogus...

As far as why this happened, according to Turkish pilot Lt Col Cicekli, Greek pilot Grivas who fired the Magic-II visited him in the hospital right after the rescue and he said "I am sorry I forgot that Arm Switch was On". This explanation is also coonfirmed by a Greek source(probably a F-16 pilot) in http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewt...c-start-0.html So, this is the only reasonable explanation we have so far..."


http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=755

Here is the complete with Link, And now you see how Greek Mirage 2000 shot Turkish F-16 by mistake because the Greek Pilot forgot the arm switch is on, Does not really talk of how user friendly Mirage 2000 is maybe the plane is trigger happy.


1) Mirage 2000, before "-5" model was unable to carry simultaneously AtoA medium range missile and AtoG weapons.... so.... you had to make a choice. But it was Mirage2000 which made a decisiv breakthrough in Kargil. Now your upgraded Mirage (and tomorrow Rafale) can do the dual missions simultaneously.
2) It was not a trainer, it was a fully operational dual seat F16 (F16D). And this particular turkish F16D was flown by skilled pilots. I even don't know if a dedecated trainer F16 exist.
 

smestarz

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Here is some more news,, perhaps the Turks should also put the case against Dassault and France, along with the Greek pilot, after all it is the French which are trying to promote an accident to their own advantage to push the sales of 3rd Gen scrap called Mirage 2000

http://greece.greekreporter.com/201...force-pilot-for-downing-turkish-f-16-in-1996/

Turkish Authorities Seeking to Sue Greek Air Force Pilot for Downing Turkish F-16 in 1996
By A. Makris -
May 18, 2016
63 9 Google +0 0 0 116
An Ankara prosecutor on Tuesday sent a letter to Greece’s Supreme Court Prosecutor asking for judicial assistance in bringing a compensation suit against a Hellenic Air Force pilot for felling a Turkish fighter jet. According to Turkish authorities, the Greek pilot allegedly shot down a Turkish F16 using a missile during an engagement on October 8, 1996. During the incident, generally attributed to an accident, the Turkish plane fell and its Turkish pilot Nail Erdogan was killed, while his co-pilot was injured but survived.

The charges included in the Ankara prosecutor’s letter are that the Greek pilot, while intercepting the Turkish plane in a Mirage 2000, shot the Turkish fighter jet down over international waters using a missile. He is also accused of violating Turkish laws for the protection of the independence, unity, integrity and security of the Turkish state.

The legal proceedings were initiated by the family of the dead Turkish pilot, whose body was never recovered, assisted by Turkish unions of retired military officers and nationalist organizations. Also involved is the surviving co-pilot Lt. Col. Osman Çilekli, who had ejected from the plane when he realized it was falling and is now claiming one million euros in compensation.

According to Turkish authorities, the two pilots were on a training flight in the Aegean.
The issue of the fallen plane is periodically revived by Ankara, especially during times of tension in Greek-Turkish relations, and some years ago it employed a Canadian firm in an attempt to find and raise the sunken aircraft, which was ultimately abandoned.

The Greek side considers the aircraft’s fall an accident, while the Turkish co-pilot that survived was recovered in the Greek search-and-rescue area, indicating that the aircraft fell while in Greek airspace. In fact, Çilekli had thanked Greek authorities for his rescue and the care he received in Greek hospitals at that time.

The fatal crash occurred during a mock dogfight between two Turkish F-16s and two Greek fighter jets that were scrambling to identify and intercept them after they entered Greek airspace. At some point during the intense maneuvres, the unlucky F-16 pilots radioed that the aircraft was out of control and that its crew were ejecting.

There were no Turkish vessels or helicopters taking part in the subsequent search-and-rescue operation because the Turkish side declined to put them under the orders of the Greek frigate “Elli,” which was coordinating the operation.


1) Mirage 2000, before "-5" model was unable to carry simultaneously AtoA medium range missile and AtoG weapons.... so.... you had to make a choice. But it was Mirage2000 which made a decisiv breakthrough in Kargil. Now your upgraded Mirage (and tomorrow Rafale) can do the dual missions simultaneously.
2) It was not a trainer, it was a fully operational dual seat F16 (F16D). And this particular turkish F16D was flown by skilled pilots. I even don't know if a dedecated trainer F16 exist.
 

smestarz

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Here is some more news,, perhaps the Turks should also put the case against Dassault and France, along with the Greek pilot, after all it is the French which are trying to promote an accident to their own advantage to push the sales of 3rd Gen scrap called Mirage 2000

http://greece.greekreporter.com/201...force-pilot-for-downing-turkish-f-16-in-1996/

Turkish Authorities Seeking to Sue Greek Air Force Pilot for Downing Turkish F-16 in 1996
By A. Makris -
May 18, 2016
63 9 Google +0 0 0 116
An Ankara prosecutor on Tuesday sent a letter to Greece’s Supreme Court Prosecutor asking for judicial assistance in bringing a compensation suit against a Hellenic Air Force pilot for felling a Turkish fighter jet. According to Turkish authorities, the Greek pilot allegedly shot down a Turkish F16 using a missile during an engagement on October 8, 1996. During the incident, generally attributed to an accident, the Turkish plane fell and its Turkish pilot Nail Erdogan was killed, while his co-pilot was injured but survived.

The charges included in the Ankara prosecutor’s letter are that the Greek pilot, while intercepting the Turkish plane in a Mirage 2000, shot the Turkish fighter jet down over international waters using a missile. He is also accused of violating Turkish laws for the protection of the independence, unity, integrity and security of the Turkish state.

The legal proceedings were initiated by the family of the dead Turkish pilot, whose body was never recovered, assisted by Turkish unions of retired military officers and nationalist organizations. Also involved is the surviving co-pilot Lt. Col. Osman Çilekli, who had ejected from the plane when he realized it was falling and is now claiming one million euros in compensation.

According to Turkish authorities, the two pilots were on a training flight in the Aegean.
The issue of the fallen plane is periodically revived by Ankara, especially during times of tension in Greek-Turkish relations, and some years ago it employed a Canadian firm in an attempt to find and raise the sunken aircraft, which was ultimately abandoned.

The Greek side considers the aircraft’s fall an accident, while the Turkish co-pilot that survived was recovered in the Greek search-and-rescue area, indicating that the aircraft fell while in Greek airspace. In fact, Çilekli had thanked Greek authorities for his rescue and the care he received in Greek hospitals at that time.

The fatal crash occurred during a mock dogfight between two Turkish F-16s and two Greek fighter jets that were scrambling to identify and intercept them after they entered Greek airspace. At some point during the intense maneuvres, the unlucky F-16 pilots radioed that the aircraft was out of control and that its crew were ejecting.

There were no Turkish vessels or helicopters taking part in the subsequent search-and-rescue operation because the Turkish side declined to put them under the orders of the Greek frigate “Elli,” which was coordinating the operation.


1) Mirage 2000, before "-5" model was unable to carry simultaneously AtoA medium range missile and AtoG weapons.... so.... you had to make a choice. But it was Mirage2000 which made a decisiv breakthrough in Kargil. Now your upgraded Mirage (and tomorrow Rafale) can do the dual missions simultaneously.
2) It was not a trainer, it was a fully operational dual seat F16 (F16D). And this particular turkish F16D was flown by skilled pilots. I even don't know if a dedecated trainer F16 exist.
 

smestarz

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Spending the career at one company is commendable, but then I guess his memory is fading, Had it not on at least 10 different times said that Rafale deal would be signed in few weeks? He does simplify and maybe that gives hope and pride to French, but then the reality is very different than what he says.

LOL we can then have BAe company also claiming that they have done wonders in India and to an extent its true, Hunter are planes which were built by companies that later merged into BAe and they would be more correct than French.

You don' t know Eric Trappier .. he spent his whole career at Dassault. But when talking to a French newspaper like Les Echos , he has to simplify ... even if the specialist like you is shocked after ;)
 

manutdfan

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