Know Your 'Rafale'

[The enlightened]

The only AESA advantages are better signal/noise ratio and wider range of ray forming and control algorythms available.
No, Bars-R is not mechanically augmented.
LPI is sane for radical VLO aircraft only.

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'The only AESA advantages are better signal/noise ratio and wider range of ray forming and control algorythms available.'
Yes of course. The only advantage of using an AK-47 Assault rifle over throwing a stone is better penetration, extended engagement range and faster engagement/disengagement cycle dealing with multiple targets.
A radar especially one as powerful as the IRBIS-E will be detected by passive systems at far more longer range than the radar itself can detect targets. There are EW suites that can home in missiles to the Su-35 simply using its own emissions. LPI can prevent all that.

 

[smestarz]

lol ..who said this ..!!

30 meteor missiles and 30 Rafale F 3

Are F3 Qualified for Meteor? Or is it your assumption? When you consider the range and nos of R77 India has, 30 Meteors are just peanuts, and what after using the 30? Start begging?

 

[SajeevJino]

Are F3 Qualified for Meteor? Or is it your assumption? When you consider the range and nos of R77 India has, 30 Meteors are just peanuts, and what after using the 30? Start begging?

that 30 is 30 character limit ...!! meh

ask @halloweene F 3 R is fully supports the Meteor, F 3 too

 

[Zebra]

iNDIA is discussing the F3 version which did not have Meteor, to further add Meteor or any other missile of our choice will be costing EXTRA.
Also the METEORs seeem to be expensive, even France can just afford 100 Meteors between their 141 Rafales, do the maths

Sir, with all due respect, the French guy who represents French products on DFI, if he him self says that all new build aircrafts will be "Meteor ready".

I can't understand why the hell you are dying for extra costing .

If F3 versions didn't have Meteor, then they can make Meteor ready F3 version for India now.

Is that to hard....?

Seriously, its getting funny now.

 

[Zebra]

^^
Who knows that the French company already changed their baseline product configuration and now all new aircrafts comes in "Meteor ready" config, no matter what.

 

[gadeshi]

'The only AESA advantages are better signal/noise ratio and wider range of ray forming and control algorythms available.'
Yes of course. The only advantage of using an AK-47 Assault rifle over throwing a stone is better penetration, extended engagement range and faster engagement/disengagement cycle dealing with multiple targets.
A radar especially one as powerful as the IRBIS-E will be detected by passive systems at far more longer range than the radar itself can detect targets. There are EW suites that can home in missiles to the Su-35 simply using its own emissions. LPI can prevent all that.

You don't know what LPI is in physical meanings, don't you?
And how does it work is a big mystery for you as well

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[gadeshi]

interflight standard SU30 is a 28 hours no? M88 GCP pack is 8000 ours, aswell as Rafale cell (afaik)
BTW "normatives" during libian ops was aroud 95%

Those both are bullshit. 30hrs were for old MK with mechanical hyroscopes in the INS. And even in this case interflights were no more then 45 mins. 30 hrs were for cold start only, when those hyros had been starting from the rest.

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[halloweene]

I was talking about man/hours. I probably wasn't excplicit enough. My apologies.

 

[gadeshi]

I was talking about man/hours. I probably wasn't excplicit enough. My apologies.

Su-30 is almost twice bigger heavy fighter. It requires more crewmen, it's quite natural.

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[halloweene]

^^
Who knows that the French company already changed their baseline product configuration and now all new aircrafts comes in "Meteor ready" config, no matter what.

in french air force, Meteor will come with F3-R standard in 2018. (aka production already started). In Egyptian army, first F3 delivered willbe retrofittted to F3-R . The rest will be F3-R only.
UAE are as usual asking for "exotic" standard, so between signature and delivery it may take 60 months!
I know nothing about Qtari Rafales, but i suppose they will be F-R
Btw, the two Rafales participating to bod questexercise atm in USA are fully qualified for latest L-16 (wmf) standard and possess a satcom. This type of satcom won't be the one used for india.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Gadeshi, please show me the number or AVERAGE (not war time) 2 housrs maintenanace. Using the same message, you could answer about cell and engine lifetime please?

not so fast and not so simple man ...


if i am using more nos of engine in russian origin then i am also paying less in terms of initial acquisition costs - capex and also for each and every subsequent engine costs

now calculate the saving on capex & teh purchase of subsequent engine in terms of rusian origin and prices

then use the opportunity costs of money on those savings

then compare total costs at the end of life for both russian & dasault (rafale )

the russian works out cheaper option


you know the gujarati way of doing business calculations & calculation of rotating the money ?

i know and so does modi :bounce:


also we agree to technical higher life of western engines but it does not mean the engine wont suffer bird hits and not be needed to be changed

In iAF

57% of accidents / incidents are non Technical

major problem for IAF is Bird hits and the obvious damage is to the engine

now suppose

i have a russian engine which costs say x million and with life of y years and a western engine which costs 2x million and with life of 3y years

but

43% of incidents of bird hits will cause some extent of damage to both

now consider case 1
where entire engine need not be replaced but some parts needs to be replaced
then russian engine parts will be cheap
while wesern engine parts will cost2 times the russian one or maybe more

an case 2

where entire engine needs to be overhauled / replaced

here again russian ones obviously works out to be cheaper

as if engine needs to be replaced then my investment or capexon western engine will go in vain as i will need to replace it inspite of its long cell life etc etc etc too will go in vain


so you see

lab life or brouchure life of enigines dosent work out to be better however you try to spin it


sure western engines may be more easier to repair / overhaul / maintian but will cost as hell

and those costs should not always be calculated on lab conditions but actual field conditions

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

in french air force, Meteor will come with F3-R standard in 2018. (aka production already started). In Egyptian army, first F3 delivered willbe retrofittted to F3-R . The rest will be F3-R only.
UAE are as usual asking for "exotic" standard, so between signature and delivery it may take 60 months!
I know nothing about Qtari Rafales, but i suppose they will be F-R
Btw, the two Rafales participating to bod questexercise atm in USA are fully qualified for latest L-16 (wmf) standard and possess a satcom. This type of satcom won't be the one used for india.

but India is getting or (sorry make it negotiating for - not getting rafales) with configuration which was finalised under MMRCA

which according to rafale fanboys & french members consensus was F3 standard not F3-R standard

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Gadeshi, please show me the number or AVERAGE (not war time) 2 housrs maintenanace. Using the same message, you could answer about cell and engine lifetime please?

why dont you discuss the range v/s usefull payload (bombload) comparision of Rafale & Su30MKI ?

 

[Yumdoot]

not so fast and not so simple man ...


if i am using more nos of engine in russian origin then i am also paying less in terms of initial acquisition costs - capex and also for each and every subsequent engine costs

now calculate the saving on capex & teh purchase of subsequent engine in terms of rusian origin and prices

then use the opportunity costs of money on those savings

then compare total costs at the end of life for both russian & dasault (rafale )

the russian works out cheaper option


you know the gujarati way of doing business calculations & calculation of rotating the money ?

i know and so does modi :bounce:


also we agree to technical higher life of western engines but it does not mean the engine wont suffer bird hits and not be needed to be changed

In iAF

57% of accidents / incidents are non Technical

major problem for IAF is Bird hits and the obvious damage is to the engine

now suppose

i have a russian engine which costs say x million and with life of y years and a western engine which costs 2x million and with life of 3y years

but

43% of incidents of bird hits will cause some extent of damage to both

now consider case 1
where entire engine need not be replaced but some parts needs to be replaced
then russian engine parts will be cheap
while wesern engine parts will cost2 times the russian one or maybe more

an case 2

where entire engine needs to be overhauled / replaced

here again russian ones obviously works out to be cheaper

as if engine needs to be replaced then my investment or capexon western engine will go in vain as i will need to replace it inspite of its long cell life etc etc etc too will go in vain


so you see

lab life or brouchure life of enigines dosent work out to be better however you try to spin it


sure western engines may be more easier to repair / overhaul / maintian but will cost as hell

and those costs should not always be calculated on lab conditions but actual field conditions

And somehow these simple things hardly ever get discussed.

What gets discussed are the things that are ab-initio designed to benefit foreigners.

Additionally every dime saved should normally be going into Indian R&D.

 

[gadeshi]

why dont you discuss the range v/s usefull payload (bombload) comparision of Rafale & Su30MKI ?

Because they are not comparable at all (I talk about normal payload not an extreme max one which will be used 2-4 times per plane lifetime)

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

THe GoI refuses to entertain IAF hankering for 44 more rafales,

Says LCA Tejas is the way to go

haha good job

IAF thought after GoI - agreed to buy 36 rafales

IAF tried to give a Lollipop to GoI by saying we are looking forward to induct more Tejas

then made a play for forcing GoI to buy 44 more rafales

BUt the GoI stood firm and refused

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

The IAF trie to play smart

by asking the govt to go for 36 + 44 more = 80 rafales

these deal will include option for 50%

which is 40

so 80+40 =120 the original MMRCA figure

 

[jaci_zenfone2]

Is India Preparing For Short Wars?
It makes no sense to buy 36 Rafales Because They Will Not Give us the technology we need in such a small order.They Will deny us source codes.Price will be higher.So if they are to get more then its all right otherwise it will be better to scrap the whole deal.

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[Agnostic_Indian]

Is India Preparing For Short Wars?
It makes no sense to buy 36 Rafales Because They Will Not Give us the technology we need in such a small order.They Will deny us source codes.Price will be higher.So if they are to get more then its all right otherwise it will be better to scrap the whole deal.

Sent from my ASUS_Z008D using Tapatalk

We will order more when our financial situation improves. 36 is too small a number to maintain logistic support.

 

[halloweene]

Checjed my numbers in latest Air Fan" : mean time between missions is 1h25mins. One plane need 8 techs for maintenance.