Know Your 'Rafale'

[Lions Of Punjab]

Rafale issue will be resolved in fast-tracked manner: Manohar Parrikar - The Economic Times

Rafale issue will be resolved in fast-tracked manner: Manohar Parrikar

NEW DELHI: French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian tonight raised the issue of the multi-billion dollar deal for 126 Rafale combat aircraft during talks with his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar who said it would be "resolved in a fast-tracked manner".

India had in 2012 selected Rafale aircraft in a deal estimated to be over Rs 60,000 crore but negotiations are still continuing between the Defence Ministry and the French firm Dassault Aviation.

"The talks were held in a cordial atmosphere. All issues relating to India-French defence cooperation were discussed," an official source told PTI.

Asked if the Rafale deal was discussed during the talks at Kota House here, sources said that there are issues on which differences still exist between the two sides.

Parrikar told his French counterpart that "this would be resolved in a fast-tracked manner", they said.

The final negotiations for the deal have been stuck on a number of issues including pricing and work-sharing.

As per the RFP issued in 2007, the first 18 jets are to be imported and the rest manufactured under licence by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

According to the sources, Dassault was reluctant to stand guarantee for the 108 fighters to be built by HAL as far as liquidity damages and timelines for production are concerned.

This, the sources said, is the critical issue that is delaying the final inking.

The Defence Ministry is of the view that the guarantee clause was part of the Air Staff Qualitative Requirements (ASQR) under the RFP that was issued.

Dassault had agreed to the ASQR and hence was chosen the winner, the sources maintained.

"How can the ASQR be relaxed? This is not allowed under the Defence Procurement Procedure, 2013," a source said.

This is the second time that France has raised the issue of Rafale with the NDA government since May.

French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius had met External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj and then Defence Minister Arun Jaitley in June and had pushed for early purchase of Rafale combat jet planes.

Fabius had said France hopes that with the new government, which was keen on efficiency, the implementation of the decision will be swift and had expressed confidence of a "positive outcome" to the ongoing negotiations in the deal.

Asserting that there was a difference in "some time" and "too long", Fabius had said that Rafale meets all the requirements of India, including cutting-edge technology and highest quality.

Rafale, which would replace India's Russian-made fleet of MiG-21 and MiG-27 planes, had stood over combat aircraft manufactured by rivals like Boeing and Lockheed Martin.

At present, India has 34 fighter jet squadrons (16-18 planes in each) against the projected need of 45 squadrons.

The French Defence Minister presented Parrikar with two photographs of Indian soldiers in World War 1.

Both the leaders also agreed that Indo-French Strategic Partnership of 1998 will be taken forward.

 

[Compersion]

the deal will be good. but we dont want a repeat of the submarine scorpene deal we have with France. i am sure both sides will agree on that and it is in a positive manner and focus that we can say that to one another (we want the other to do well and look good).

 

[Srinivas_K]

India, France close to sealing $15bn Rafale deal

India, France close to sealing $15bn Rafale deal

NEW DELHI: An Indian defence spokesman says India is close to finalizing a deal to buy 126 Rafale fighter planes for about 12 billion euros ($15 billion). It would be France's first foreign sale of the combat-tested planes.

France and French manufacturer Dassault Aviation have been trying for years to sell the jets abroad.

French defence minister Jean-Yves Le Drian is currently visiting India.

Defense spokesman Sitanshu Kar said on Tuesday that defence minister Manohar Parrikar met his French counterpart on Monday.

Kar said the two ministers discussed all defence issues between the two countries and decided to resolve all outstanding issues, including Rafale, quickly.

A French defence official, who was not authorized to discuss the matter publicly, also confirmed that the two defence ministers agreed to accelerate negotiations.

India, France close to seal $15bn Rafale deal - The Times of India

 

[santosh10]

Re: India, France close to sealing $15bn Rafale deal

its a very good news, we hope to see this bird on the border soon :thumb:

 

[Kshatriya87]

Re: India, France close to sealing $15bn Rafale deal

India, France close to sealing $15bn Rafale deal

NEW DELHI: An Indian defence spokesman says India is close to finalizing a deal to buy 126 Rafale fighter planes for about 12 billion euros ($15 billion). It would be France's first foreign sale of the combat-tested planes.

France and French manufacturer Dassault Aviation have been trying for years to sell the jets abroad.

French defence minister Jean-Yves Le Drian is currently visiting India.

Defense spokesman Sitanshu Kar said on Tuesday that defence minister Manohar Parrikar met his French counterpart on Monday.

Kar said the two ministers discussed all defence issues between the two countries and decided to resolve all outstanding issues, including Rafale, quickly.

A French defence official, who was not authorized to discuss the matter publicly, also confirmed that the two defence ministers agreed to accelerate negotiations.

India, France close to seal $15bn Rafale deal - The Times of India

Combat tested? Which one please?

 

[Vishwarupa]

Re: India, France close to sealing $15bn Rafale deal

Combat tested? Which one please?

There you go again:cool2:

 

[IBSA]

Re: India, France close to sealing $15bn Rafale deal

Combat tested? Which one please?

OTAN's campaign against Libyan regime in 2011

 

[Srinivas_K]

Re: India, France close to sealing $15bn Rafale deal

Combat tested? Which one please?

Rafale is used in Libya and also in other NATO operations !!

 

[Neo]

Re: India, France close to sealing $15bn Rafale deal

Rafale is used in Libya and also in other NATO operations !!

It was first used in Afghanistan followed by Lybia.


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oo8zhyYakx4

 

[Srinivas_K]

Re: India, France close to sealing $15bn Rafale deal

It was first used in Afghanistan followed by Lybia.


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oo8zhyYakx4

Reason why I have mentioned Libya and NATO operations !!

 

[Neo]

Re: India, France close to sealing $15bn Rafale deal

Reason why I have mentioned Libya and NATO operations !!

The Rafale also flew sorties in Mauritania and bombed the AQ hideouts few years ago.

 

[Srinivas_K]

Re: India, France close to sealing $15bn Rafale deal

The Rafale also flew sorties in Mauritania and bombed the AQ hideouts few years ago.

Rafale is a good ground attack aircraft.

Thanks for the video !!

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: India, France close to sealing $15bn Rafale deal

Another bogus article following the long and illustrious lines of Rajat Pandit farts. TOI carries such frivolous articles giving fake news on MMRCA imminent signing while disparaging tejas program at the same time.
Reality on rafale will be known only after Putin visit. If issues on FGFA are resolved soon on the lines of phased induction of Su-30 , it will be very hard for Indian govt to allocate huge funding to rafale

 

[Neo]

Re: India, France close to sealing $15bn Rafale deal

Welcome

 

[rohit b3]

Re: India, France close to sealing $15bn Rafale deal

Pray that the Deal is cancelled.

 

[Hari Sud]

Re: India, France close to sealing $15bn Rafale deal

Rafale deal may still happen, although India is in a tight spot. If it does not happen.

There are pros and cons of this deal. But before we go into the pros and cons, let us agree on price of the whole deal and what we get for the money paid. Various prices have been quoted. This deal, I believe on comparable basis was priced at $10 billion in 2011, then we began to hear noises of $20 billion, only a few months back the price quoted was $30 billion. There is a world of difference in $10 billion and $30 billion for 126 planes and their two years of parts and training including technical assistance and full supervision to assemble it in India (screw driver technology).

Some of price increases is definitely inflation (never higher than 3% in the west since 2006), we do not know the origin of wild figure of $30 billion unless of course it is life cycle cost or guess work of people opposed to the deal. A figure of $15 billion appears to be right. It includes inflation, minor changes in specs and cost of new assembly line at HAL.

What is the right figure, it is anybody's guess.

Now the pros of the deal (please pardon me, I am covering the major ones only).

. The IAF gets a toy, it is yearning for the last six years. It bypasses both our enemy neighbours in quality and modern hardware. It would make Pakistan and China much harder to invade and succeed jointly or singly.

. With some technology transfer, India learns more about building fighters. In late sixties and seventies assembly line of MIG-21, helped India to learn about making modern jet fighters. The technical competence improved and India quickly absorbed technology of subsequent fighter purchases from Soviets/Russia. The LCA project evolved out of it.

. Our dependence on Russia for military hardware is permanently put on back burner. The learning process of the 4.5 generation fighter, it's avionics, it's tactics etc. would teach a lot to the IAF. It would become the premier Air Force of the Asia and among best in the world. Chinese with their still under development stealth fighters will not be able to come within 100 miles of our northern border.

. HAL also gains a lot with newer manufacturing techniques, although TOT will not cover everything HAL wish to know. Still the learning opportunity is great. It is upto HAL to grasp it fully.

. Ancillary industry which would supply some parts and services would come out much ahead. If the parts makers keep in step with the assembly lines at HAL, they would become world class suppliers. Export potential is great with whatever TOT occurs.

. Etc.

Now the Cons:

. The deal could bankrupt the national defence budget. It is not only the initial price per plane you pay, it is yearly drain of foreign exchange to buy spare parts, services, overhaul costs etc.

. How well is the IAF prepared to absorb the new technology. Our accident rate is the highest. We have excuses for that like lack of trainers, substandard spare parts, human error etc. in fact, it is mostly human errors. Hence question here is how is IAF positioned itself to absorb the new technology, train new pilot line, build new taring facilities etc. On top of it, new air bases would have to be built all over the country to accommodate these 126 planes.

. Will this purchase slow down the development of LCA-2. I hope not. LCA 1 &2 are pride and joy of India. These cannot be slowed down. Air Force and Defence Ministry must have done studies to this affect. These studies cannot be trusted. They are either mostly bureacratic in nature or vested interest in IAF pushing for Rafale purchase. Hence what is the truth?

. Will acquisition of half priced but equally capable SU-30 MK1 will be impacted. This plane beat USAF hollow twice in last ten years, further accelrated the defelopment of the stealth fighter F-22. The SU program can neither be slowed down or abondoned.

. The much touted Rafale in action in Libya is worthless. It is still untried and untested plane. Libya was a cake walk for the west. Superiority is established when you tangle with an equally worthy enemy. Hence this plane, if all it ever goes to war would go in India only. Chances of that happening are remote as our enemies are taking note of all these developments, would prefer not to tangle with India.

. Etc.

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

India and France to fast-track Rafale deal

It would be France's first foreign sale of the combat-tested planes.

Indian and France agreed on Monday to overcome differences and fast-track ongoing negotiations for the purchase of 126 Rafale fighter jets from France, a Defence Ministry spokesperson said.

The decision came during discussions between visiting French Defence Minister Yves Le Drian and his Indian counterpart, Manohar Parrikar. Both sides also decided to expand strategic cooperation, the official added.

Negotiations have been going on since 2012 when India selected Dassault Rafale from among competing medium multi-role combat aircraft. Differences cropped up between the two sides on delivery guarantees and price.

The tender stipulates that the first 18 jets should come in "fly-away" condition from France, while the remaining 108 will be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) in India over seven years with Transfer of Technology (ToT).

Dassault has refused to give delivery guarantees for HAL-made aircraft, which the Air Force is insisting on. With the ToT, the cost too escalated from the initial estimate of $10 billion to almost $30 billion.

India and France to fast-track Rafale deal - The Hindu

 

[Hari Sud]

Re: India, France close to sealing $15bn Rafale deal

Defence News is reporting Rafale deal at $12 billion.

What is the right figure? Although, I have quoted in the above write-up figure from $10 billion to $30 Billion from various sources.

 

[halloweene]

In french minister declarations, he stated that india may export Rafale either.

 

[ersakthivel]

Parrikar’s Priority | Security Wise

The air force and army are way behind, with the former displaying distrust in extremis of home-made aircraft even after the Marut HF-24 showed it could be done 50 years back, and the Tejas light combat aircraft is a beautiful fighter plane. According to Pushpindar Singh, agent for Dornier, the German aviation sector was so impressed it offered to jointly develop the latter aircraft. With the lack of foresight the Indian government is known for the MoD, of course, declined just as it had done the offer by Bonn in the Sixties to co-develop the Marut! The import option has proved a bonanza for foreign defence suppliers, providing foreign countries the handle to influence Indian foreign and military policies by manipulating, especially during crises, the supply of spares.

Parrikar will, however, have to first terminate the negotiations for Rafale. It is a buyer's market and Paris can ill-afford anger and damage the prospects of French firms losing out on potential partnerships with Indian companies to produce weapons systems in toto in India. Such a decision will oxygenate the Tejas light combat aircraft programme, particularly if it is combined with the speedy approval of the upscaled Tejas Mk-II design—the Advanced MMRCA (AMMRCA) project, which has been finalised by the Aircraft Development Agency (ADA).

As in the case of the 75i submarine, it is the more efficient and capable private sector who should be lead contractor and prime integrator on the AMMRCA with ADA design and production technologies transferred to it, so that the 15-year timeline for induction is met. Indeed, the country is farther ahead in the realm of combat plane production than of diesel submarines, considering the technology is indigenous and ingested, the design is ready as are the tooling and manufacturing processes for the Tejas series. To ensure success, however, Parrikar will have to make the IAF responsible for the success of the project and bringing the AMMRCA in on time and within cost. This is a larger, truly 5th generation, warplane with the fully composite fuselage and leading edges, higher ordnance-carrying capacity, and more advanced avionics compared to the Rafale straddling the 3rd and 4th generations of fighter aircraft dating to the 1980s.

That India even shortlisted Rafale, a day-before-yesterday's plane for tomorrow's needs, and has made ready to spend in excess of $30 billion over the next 30 years when a home-grown alternative is available, shows how skewed the procurement system has become and which Parrikar will have to right on a war footing. He can show India's resolve to be self-sufficient in arms and invest such vast sums, in line with Modi's "Make in India" policy, with a design-to-delivery AMMRCA product and thus power the Indian aviation sector with private companies permitted to utilise the under-used wherewithal of the DPSUs. Or, Parrikar can funnel the `1,80,000 crore into helping Paris recover its investment in the prohibitively expensive Rafale programme that has found no other buyers and keeping the French company, Dassault, financially afloat. What makes more sense doing?

Parrikar should not be intimidated by IAF's media orchestrated squawking about depleted combat aircraft strength, especially when there's a ready solution the IAF is loath to pursue to meet short-term needs, namely, buying more Su-30s, MiG-29Ms, and sprucing up their spares situation. The AMMRCA at the top end and the Avro 748 medium transport replacement and the army's requirement for 197 light helicopters in its train will help consolidate a strong aerospace sector that India has waited too long for.