Know Your 'Rafale'

[halloweene]

Ok i was just reading now "Nav Bharat Times" part of Times group. they are reporting that allthough Rafale cost less them Typhoon but when technology transfere cost is added then its cost more then Typhoon . And also they are reporting that in specs Typhoon is better then Rafale. Is that true Typhoon is better then rafale in specs.I know i can go through thread to determine which is better but if some can summarise it here in simple language then it would be better

Also Did european consortium had added technology transfere cost while tendering

Did you know for ex that Times grp also owns "Arabian aerospace", Ed in chief jon lake? (a journalist usually considered on "this side" as a lobbyist for eurofighter consortium).
Journos from Times grp have been in favour of Eurofighter all along the mmrca.
Typhoon has some better specs then Rafale, others lower.

 

[anoop_mig25]

Did you know for ex that Times grp also owns "Arabian aerospace", Ed in chief jon lake? (a journalist usually considered on "this side" as a lobbyist for eurofighter consortium).
Journos from Times grp have been in favour of Eurofighter all along the mmrca.
Typhoon has some better specs then Rafale, others lower.

thanks info , i didn`t know that .And also i donot have so much clout to take out such information

 

[arunpat]

David Cameron aims to 'steal' Indian Air Force fighter deal from France: report

London: British Prime Minister David Cameron will attempt to 'steal' a six billion pound Indian defence contract from under the nose of French President Francois Hollande when he visits New Delhi this week, according to a media report.

"The Prime Minister will use a trip to India to try to persuade the New Delhi government to buy more than 100 Eurofighter jets after the French President left empty-handed this week," the Daily Mail reported ahead of Cameron's three-day official visit which begins tomorrow.

French contractor Dassault Aviation was chosen last year as the preferred bidder for the contract to supply Rafale jet fighters to the Indian Air Force under a USD 10-billion deal - a blow for the UK-German-Spanish-Italian consortium, which includes Britain's BAE Systems, which builds the Eurofighter.
But Hollande's hopes of signing a final contract came to nothing this week - despite him squeezing in a visit before Mr Cameron. The French premier also failed to secure any major trade deals, the British paper claimed.

"That has sparked hopes in Downing Street that Cameron can persuade the Indian authorities to rethink the deal and buy the Eurofighter instead," it said.

"Officials made clear that the Prime Minister wants to steal a march on Hollande, who has repeatedly clashed with Cameron," the paper said.

Cameron angered the French by offering to put out a "red carpet" for entrepreneurs fleeing Hollande's new 75 per cent top rate of tax, while the French government retaliated with the same offer for British businessmen if the UK quits the EU in the referendum Mr Cameron has offered.

Quoting a British government source, the Daily Mail said: "Hollande was in India this week and a deal has not been signed so we will want to find out from the Indians how their talks are progressing with the French."

A No 10 official added: "We respect the fact that the Indians have chosen their preferred bidder and are currently negotiating with the French. Of course, we will continue to promote Eurofighter as a great fast jet not just in India but around the world."

However Prime Minister Manmohan Singh last week said that "discussions on the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) (Rafale) contract are progressing well."
Cameron will lead the largest ever trade delegation of ministers and businessmen to India, designed to strike defence, energy and education deals with the emerging
superpower, the paper said.

David Cameron aims to 'steal' Indian Air Force fighter deal from France: report | NDTV.com

 

[p2prada]

The article's tone is aggressive, but will fizzle out.

Nobody can simply sweet talk the IAF into choosing a different aircraft once everything's done.

 

[anoop_mig25]

The article's tone is aggressive, but will fizzle out.

Nobody can simply sweet talk the IAF into choosing a different aircraft once everything's done.

Hope so Rafale wins .But you never know Indian babus , they would would select Typhoon as MMRCA winner declare that rafale was mere L1 and not winner of MMRCA

 

[halloweene]

David Cameron aims to 'steal' Indian Air Force fighter deal from France: report

London: British Prime Minister David Cameron will attempt to 'steal' a six billion pound Indian defence contract from under the nose of French President Francois Hollande when he visits New Delhi this week, according to a media report.

"The Prime Minister will use a trip to India to try to persuade the New Delhi government to buy more than 100 Eurofighter jets after the French President left empty-handed this week," the Daily Mail reported ahead of Cameron's three-day official visit which begins tomorrow.

French contractor Dassault Aviation was chosen last year as the preferred bidder for the contract to supply Rafale jet fighters to the Indian Air Force under a USD 10-billion deal - a blow for the UK-German-Spanish-Italian consortium, which includes Britain's BAE Systems, which builds the Eurofighter.
But Hollande's hopes of signing a final contract came to nothing this week - despite him squeezing in a visit before Mr Cameron. The French premier also failed to secure any major trade deals, the British paper claimed.

"That has sparked hopes in Downing Street that Cameron can persuade the Indian authorities to rethink the deal and buy the Eurofighter instead," it said.

"Officials made clear that the Prime Minister wants to steal a march on Hollande, who has repeatedly clashed with Cameron," the paper said.

Cameron angered the French by offering to put out a "red carpet" for entrepreneurs fleeing Hollande's new 75 per cent top rate of tax, while the French government retaliated with the same offer for British businessmen if the UK quits the EU in the referendum Mr Cameron has offered.

Quoting a British government source, the Daily Mail said: "Hollande was in India this week and a deal has not been signed so we will want to find out from the Indians how their talks are progressing with the French."

A No 10 official added: "We respect the fact that the Indians have chosen their preferred bidder and are currently negotiating with the French. Of course, we will continue to promote Eurofighter as a great fast jet not just in India but around the world."

However Prime Minister Manmohan Singh last week said that "discussions on the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) (Rafale) contract are progressing well."
Cameron will lead the largest ever trade delegation of ministers and businessmen to India, designed to strike defence, energy and education deals with the emerging
superpower, the paper said.

David Cameron aims to 'steal' Indian Air Force fighter deal from France: report | NDTV.com

Its becoming very funny : if you want to know Mr Cameron foreign agenda, look at french president one and add few weeks (UAE, India etc.)

 

[halloweene]

Long list but i loved the meteors.

 

[p2prada]

Hope so Rafale wins .But you never know Indian babus , they would would select Typhoon as MMRCA winner declare that rafale was mere L1 and not winner of MMRCA

Lucky for us, Anthony has been making a lot of positive statements about transparency fair play. As far as we can see, he has backed it up with his actions.

If you notice, not one company actually fussed about their loss in their deal. That says a lot.

Some sponsored analysts and journos made some noises, but it died out quickly.

In most other deals companies are sending written complaints to the ministry, like the helicopter contract.

Its becoming very funny : if you want to know Mr Cameron foreign agenda, look at french president one and add few weeks (UAE, India etc.)

The author of the article is unnecessarily aggressive, as though Cameron's gonna pick a fight over it.

The actual message quoted directly by the ministry is quite benign.

Like

"Hollande was in India this week and a deal has not been signed so we will want to find out from the Indians how their talks are progressing with the French."

and,

We respect the fact that the Indians have chosen their preferred bidder and are currently negotiating with the French. Of course, we will continue to promote Eurofighter as a great fast jet not just in India but around the world.

But, yeah, it seems the British are trying to copy the French foreign policy. This also shows how well both the countries' interests are very similar to each other.

 

[p2prada]

Will Rafale carry Meteors on the wing tips? I don't think so.

 

[Crusader53]

Will Rafale carry Meteors on the wing tips? I don't think so.

The IAF doesn't currently operate Meteors. So, while Rafale could use them I don't see it as likely.

 

[halloweene]

The IAF doesn't currently operate Meteors. So, while Rafale could use them I don't see it as likely.

Noone operates Meteor yet :thumb:

 

[Immanuel]

Rafale out performing the F-15 and F-18SH hot weather another joke, both the teens have lived their considerable lives on deserts, no way Rafale can match that. The french magazine is sometimes so full of hot air tales.

 

[Immanuel]

Not so many atm : GPS/INS, + IR or + laser kits. Rest is price of the bomb in itself.

Both SDB 1/2 beats this weapon at a far lower price, JDAM/LJDAM/JDAM-ER/Paveway Family is cheaper too. SDB also comes in neat small packaging to allow for almost 16+ weapons to be carried by any regular fighter. SDB 1 in its basic version can be used against moving as well hardened targets. AASM is nice weapon but no thanks at the price. The SDB 2 has the tri seeker (IR/Radar/Laser) as well a GPS reciever.

 

[Shirman]

India says too early to look for foul play in Rafale deal | Reuters

India says "too early" to look for foul play in Rafale deal

Reuters) - Defence Minister A.K. Antony said on Tuesday it was "too early" to consider the possibility of foul play in a planned $10 billion deal with France's Dassault Aviation (AVMD.PA) for Rafale war planes.

India has threatened to scrap a $750 million deal for a dozen AgustaWestland helicopters after Italian police arrested the former head of parent company Finmeccanica (SIFI.MI), Giuseppe Orsi, last week for allegedly paying bribes to Indian politicians to win the contract.

The Rafale purchase, one of the world's largest defence deals, has come under increased scrutiny in the Indian media because of the Finmeccanica case.
The allegations surrounding the AgustaWestland deal also hung over the visit by British Prime Minister David Cameron to India this week. After meeting PM Manmohan Singh, Cameron promised to assist India's investigation into the sale of the helicopters, which are manufactured in Britain.
Antony was responding to a question from Reuters at a news conference on whether the government was looking into any possibility of corruption in the deal with Rafale to buy 126 fighter jets, which is in the final stages of negotiation between Dassault and India.

"It is too early," he said, adding that there were many levels of scrutiny in the deal.

"I can assure you one thing, as far as our government is concerned, regarding integrity, transparency, we will not compromise," he said.

"We will go to any extent to take action," he said, if there was any evidence of corruption.
French President Francois Hollande said on a visit to India last week that his government was committed to deals being done according to "commercial rules" and France remained vigilant in the fight against corruption.

"We are working with Indian authorities, we have nothing to do with Finmeccanica and even less with the problems that they're having now," Eric Trappier, chief executive of Dassault Aviation, told reporters during Hollande's visit.

"VERY SERIOUS CONCERNS"

The Finmeccanica case has sent shockwaves through the defence industry in India, the world's largest weapons importer. It follows a series of corruption scandals that have dogged the government, which faces a general election due by 2014.

The Defence Ministry is considering cancelling the helicopter deal, which would put in question some $12 billion in sales the Italian company is chasing.

India prohibits any middlemen in arms deals.

Several Indian newspapers have quoted a 2002 Paris court judgment that a British-based broker, Christian Michel, was employed by Dassault during a bid to sell India 10 Mirage 2000 jets. The court ruled that Dassault and Michel had parted ways by the time that deal was signed in 2000.

"Today there are only reports. We are very clear if for any deal, any foul play is found, we will take action," Antony said.
Michel is now accused by Italian prosecutors of funnelling bribes to Indian officials to swing the AgustaWestland helicopter deal.

Cameron is in India hoping to tap one of the world's fastest-growing major economies for new trade and investment opportunities, including in the defence sector.

Britain was part of a consortium hoping to win the contract to sell Eurofighter jets worth about $10 billion to India. That consortium has lost out to Dassault but Cameron has sought to persuade the Indian government that Eurofighter remains an attractive option if India decides to review the Rafale deal.

The timing of Cameron's visit was not ideal, coming just after the AgustaWestland corruption allegations erupted

"I also conveyed to the prime minister our very serious concerns regarding allegations about unethical means used in securing the 2010 contract of the AgustaWestland helicopters," Singh told reporters after their meeting.

"I have sought full assistance from the UK in this case. Prime Minister David Cameron has assured me of the cooperation of his government in the investigation."

Cameron, speaking after Singh, said his government would respond to any request for information about the deal.
"I'm glad the Italian authorities are looking into this issue in detail as Finmeccanica is an Italian company, the parent company of AgustaWestland," Cameron said.

(Additional reporting by Frank Jack Daniel, Annie Banerji and Nigam Prusty; Writing by Frank Jack Daniel and Matthias Williams; Editing by Raju Gopalakrishnan and Robert Birsel)

 

[Shirman]

^^^^^ whatever the above article is typhoon is not goin to be selected because of Finmeccanicas' involvement in Typhoon....

Link :-http://www.finmeccanica.com/Corporate/EN/Corporate/Settori/Aeronautica/Prodotti/Eurofighter_Typhoon_Alenia_Aeronautica/index.

 

[halloweene]

Rafale out performing the F-15 and F-18SH hot weather another joke, both the teens have lived their considerable lives on deserts, no way Rafale can match that. The french magazine is sometimes so full of hot air tales.

rafales are constantly depoyed in UAE, + lybia and mali. you cant call Rafalea beginner in desert. The article quotes an official source for whatever it means. Maybe one should have read outperformed ALSO in hot weather?

 

[halloweene]

Both SDB 1/2 beats this weapon at a far lower price, JDAM/LJDAM/JDAM-ER/Paveway Family is cheaper too. SDB also comes in neat small packaging to allow for almost 16+ weapons to be carried by any regular fighter. SDB 1 in its basic version can be used against moving as well hardened targets. AASM is nice weapon but no thanks at the price. The SDB 2 has the tri seeker (IR/Radar/Laser) as well a GPS reciever.

sdb1 vs hardened target? with 200 lb warhead....
SDB 1 do not have other sensors but GPS and only one warhead size. On the opposite, AASM already have IR and laser terminal guidance versions.
SDB2 will have tri seeker, aswell as AASM. But wont be reprogrammable afaik during bomb flight (AASM will be, and will also be from a third party like AWACS or JTAC). No 500/2000 lbs versions scheduled (for obvious reasons). Price unknown.
SDB has nice strongpoints : long range as far as launched from high altitude and... Small diameter. Far from as versatile as AASM kit.

Different stuff.

About JDAM (which are far more comparable to AASM because they are added kits), only GPS guidance, and similar rage only for ER version.
They come with ITAR restrictions, which may include retroactive ITAR as wished by Obama.
Dunno if any of those can be shot aside or backwards btw.

About Paveway, i assume you are talking about paveway iv, indeed. (paveway 2 is integrated on rafale as a low cost alternative to aasm for less demanding missions) A nice weapon, but
no IR version, spiral kit not available yet (so short range)

 

[Immanuel]

sdb1 vs hardened target? with 200 lb warhead....
SDB 1 do not have other sensors but GPS and only one warhead size. On the opposite, AASM already have IR and laser terminal guidance versions.
SDB2 will have tri seeker, aswell as AASM. But wont be reprogrammable afaik during bomb flight (AASM will be, and will also be from a third party like AWACS or JTAC). No 500/2000 lbs versions scheduled (for obvious reasons). Price unknown.
SDB has nice strongpoints : long range as far as launched from high altitude and... Small diameter. Far from as versatile as AASM kit.

Different stuff.

About JDAM (which are far more comparable to AASM because they are added kits), only GPS guidance, and similar rage only for ER version.
They come with ITAR restrictions, which may include retroactive ITAR as wished by Obama.
Dunno if any of those can be shot aside or backwards btw.

About Paveway, i assume you are talking about paveway iv, indeed. (paveway 2 is integrated on rafale as a low cost alternative to aasm for less demanding missions) A nice weapon, but
no IR version, spiral kit not available yet (so short range)

Indeed AASM comes in different weight categories but the price per unit is not worth this added advantage. If long range IR capability is needed might as use the CBU-105 SFW which allows for 40 targets to be pulverised in minutes. SDB 1 and 2 allow for most of the target types to be taken care of. DRDO seems to be working on Sudharshan NG for ranges over 50km as well rumors of recent GPS guided glide bomb test also is much needed progress. For heavy day to day stuff, the Sudharshan/Ng, Gps Glide bomb will be used. they can order hundreds of thousands of these since they'll be low cost and made in India. For special needs we'll need a few thousand SDB1/2 and around 3000 SFW/CLAW

http://www.airforce-magazine.com/Si...10/August 2010/Day25/SDBII_factsheet_0810.pdf

India is already getting the CBU-105SFW and ITAR is not a big deal when buying such cutting edge weapons. Even so some Rafale parts are ITAR too

It is kinda silly to be using such an expensive weapon like the AASM for a threat environment which simply is too extensive for economical considerations.

sdb-1 bunker - Google Search

The SDB can handle hardened shelters for eg. not really heavy bunker busting but good enough for most types of bunkers. Even France placed only a small order for the AASM and during Libya were running to Unkil for some much need PGM inventory and unkil kindly flew much used Paveways quickly. I don't see why IAF would waste money on a weapon that has little added advantage with a massive cost disadvantage.

 

[halloweene]

GBU 105 is a gliding bomb... Different purpose. You cannot ask a gliding bomb various angle of striking for example, neither can you use it with decent range during low altitude high speed high G lauching. It is a very good weapon, but ay not as versatile as Hammer. Try to lauch 6 SDB towards six different targets in six different direction in a single salvo for ex.
I dont understand your point about itar not being a big deal once again i'll quote obama's will to have itar retroactive. About Rafale, can you cite me which parts are ITAR? Near none (and french built afaik).
2m concrete is hardly a bunker.
France ordered 3400 AASM atm.
Not any ammo was lended/given to France during Lybian war, its an urban legend. Some were to other airforces, but its kinda out of topic no (and i dont get your sentence tbh, what is unkil?).
About cost, you can cite french order costs, as they include development costs we do not have any idea of weapon cost for export. But considering SA asked an implementation on their Tornado, one can guess it is not "unworkable" :cool2: .

I already see two types of missions : deep low altitude strike (propelled vs gliding) and Air interdiction (usage versatility) where it would be superior to SDB. That is not saying SDB isnt a good weapon (more weapons/rack, longer range under some circumstances) just they are different stuff/use.

No idea about future sdb2 price. Have you?

CBU 97/105 are cluster weapons, with all the collateral damage this type of ammo have, absolutely different from smart weapons like aasm and SDB. In lybia, first ROE was to avoid collateral damage...

Noone said India should use only AASM

 

[Drsomnath999]

Airforces Monthly, March 2013:

COURTESY:OLYBRIUS
THANK U FOR THE INFO MATE