Kaveri Engine

vijay jagannathan

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do you believe it? ADA is going to open the discussions only 2 weeks( make that infinite weeks) from now with the two vendors. Just to think of the sense of urgency these people are showing. this aspect of Indian beauracracy will never ever improve.
 

vijay jagannathan

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sorry but this video means nothing. what is the actually status and latest dry and wet thrust as per russian testing?
 

RUDRESH N V

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Kaveri thrust

many people here think kaveri's thrust is 52kn that is just dry thrust but its complete afterburner thrust is 81 kn 13% more than GE 404 and 4kn less than another variant of ge 404 ie ge 404IN20. all the previous comments about 52kn is useless....

previously it used to throw blades now the engine gives sustained thrust ......so dont worry.

the only problem with the kaveri engine is its bypass ratios .22 as of recent advancements some of the sc blade technology is incorporated into u may see increase in thrust values because it will be tweaked for good performance ......

THE ENGINE IS GOING TO BRING SOME VERY GOOD NEWS FROM RUSSIA just wait for it ............
 
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nrj

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many people here think kaveri's thrust is 52kn that is just dry thrust but its complete afterburner thrust is 81 kn 13% more than GE 404 and 4kn less than another variant of ge 404 ie ge 404IN20. all the previous comments about 52kn is useless....

previously it used to throw blades now the engine gives sustained thrust ......so dont worry.

the only problem with the kaveri engine is its bypass ratios .22 as of recent advancements some of the sc blade technology is incorporated into u may see increase in thrust values because it will be tweaked for good performance ......

THE ENGINE IS GOING TO BRING SOME VERY GOOD NEWS FROM RUSSIA just wait for it ............
If that is true then we can expect that the AMCA won't be delayed due to engine. However, physical testing of these successes is essential. Required infrastructure for that should be developed as soon as possible.
 

Agantrope

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many people here think kaveri's thrust is 52kn that is just dry thrust but its complete afterburner thrust is 81 kn 13% more than GE 404 and 4kn less than another variant of ge 404 ie ge 404IN20. all the previous comments about 52kn is useless....

previously it used to throw blades now the engine gives sustained thrust ......so dont worry.

the only problem with the kaveri engine is its bypass ratios .22 as of recent advancements some of the sc blade technology is incorporated into u may see increase in thrust values because it will be tweaked for good performance ......

THE ENGINE IS GOING TO BRING SOME VERY GOOD NEWS FROM RUSSIA just wait for it ............
From my sources i heard that Kaveri has more thrust than ej200 ie, it will weighs 60 Kgs more than EJ200 and have 7% more thrust than EJ200. But waiting for it got confirmed with the official data
 
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nitesh

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From my sources that Kaveri has far more thrust than the ej200, it weighs more than 60 Kgs than EJ200 and more than 7% EJ200. But need to get itconfirmed
I think u should rephrase your quote :)
 

Armand2REP

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many people here think kaveri's thrust is 52kn that is just dry thrust but its complete afterburner thrust is 81 kn 13% more than GE 404 and 4kn less than another variant of ge 404 ie ge 404IN20. all the previous comments about 52kn is useless....

previously it used to throw blades now the engine gives sustained thrust ......so dont worry.

the only problem with the kaveri engine is its bypass ratios .22 as of recent advancements some of the sc blade technology is incorporated into u may see increase in thrust values because it will be tweaked for good performance ......

THE ENGINE IS GOING TO BRING SOME VERY GOOD NEWS FROM RUSSIA just wait for it ............
Current Kaveri max thrust is 65 KN or 14,612 lb. With a weight of 1265kg it is 368kg heavier than the Snecma M88. If it had a max thrust of 81 KN it would not likely have been rejected for Mk1. Now it is to be used as a ship engine.

Business Standard said:
"The reason was two-fold", explains Mohana Rao. "The Kaveri turned out 15% heavier than we planned. From the planned 1100 kg, its final weight has gone up to 1265 kg."

Meanwhile, the Tejas fighter also turned out heavier than planned, demanding a more powerful engine; the Kaveri's maximum thrust of 65 Kilo Newtons (KN) is simply not enough. The air force has chosen American GE 404-IN engines, which produce 80 KN at full power, to power the first 20 Tejas fighters. And subsequent Tejas will get about 95 KN of thrust from a new-generation engine: the General Electric GE-414 and the Eurojet EJ200 engines are currently being evaluated.

http://www.business-standard.com/in...omes-alive-will-power-indian-fighters/379333/
 

Rahul Singh

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May be things are changing and changing for good in Russia. ......................To me 81 KN mark is hard to believe. But i'll for test results to come out.
 

EagleOne

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Air Force says DRDO stalling Tejas fighter engine-a bad news

AF feels DRDO fronting for French engine, citing 'joint development'.

India's Tejas light fighter is failing to meet performance targets, largely because of an underpowered engine. And, the Indian Air Force (IAF) believes the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is actively stalling the process of choosing a new engine.

A furious IAF, which urgently needs the Tejas to replace its retiring MiG-21 squadrons, has complained in writing to the Ministry of Defence (MoD). The IAF report says that even as the Aeronautical Development Agency, or ADA — which oversees the Tejas programme — is choosing between two powerful, modern engines from the global market, the DRDO has confused the issue by throwing up a third option: An offer to resurrect its failed Kaveri engine programme, this time in partnership with French engine-maker, Snecma.
The IAF report, currently with the highest levels of the MoD, makes two points. First, since the DRDO has been unable, for over two decades, to deliver a Kaveri engine that can power the Tejas, the ongoing procurement — of either the General Electric (GE) F-414, or the Eurojet EJ200 engine — should go ahead.

The IAF's second objection is even more damning for the DRDO: Snecma, the IAF charges, has already developed the heart of the engine it is offering, an uprated derivative of the M88-2 engine that powers the French Rafale fighter. The DRDO, therefore, will not co-develop the engine, but merely provide Snecma with an indigenous stamp. In reality, the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), the DRDO laboratory that has laboured for decades on the Kaveri, will hardly participate in any "joint development".

Further, says a top IAF source, a Kaveri engine based on Snecma's new core will leave the Tejas short of performance, providing barely 83-85 Kilonewtons (KN) of maximum thrust. In contrast, the GE and Eurojet engines already short-listed for selection provide 90-96 KN, a significant advantage. The source says sneaking in the underpowered Kaveri-Snecma engine through the GTRE back door will damage the LCA project.

For the IAF, the performance of the new engine is crucial. It has agreed to accept the Tejas into service as soon as the fighter obtains its Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) in December, even though the Tejas does not yet fly, climb, turn or accelerate fast enough. The IAF's accommodation is based on a promise from the ADA that a new, more powerful engine will overcome all the Tejas' current performance shortfalls.

Senior IAF officers explain that the DRDO needs the Tejas project to endorse the Kaveri-Snecma engine because Snecma insists on a minimum assured order of 300 engines as a precondition for partnering GTRE in "joint development". Since India's futuristic Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) — the other potential user of a Kaveri-Snecma engine — has not yet been sanctioned, only the Tejas programme, with some 120-140 fighters planned, provides the numbers needed for satisfying Snecma.

The IAF will buy two squadrons (42 fighters) of Tejas Mark 1, which use older GE F-404 engines. In addition, five squadrons (110 fighters) of Tejas Mark 2 are planned, which will be powered by a new engine. Given that each Tejas could go through 2-3 engines during its lifetime, the LCA Mk 2 will actually need 200-300 of the new engines.

http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/air-force-says-drdo-stalling-tejas-fighter-engine/399639/

Contacted by Business Standard, the DRDO declined to comment on the subject.

Business Standard has already reported (December 12, 2009, "Kaveri engine comes alive; will power Indian fighters") that the MoD is backing Kaveri-Snecma as a new engine for the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). That report was corroborated on May 13 by Defence Minister A K Antony, who told Parliament that the Kaveri "requires to be optimised for lower weight and higher performance so that it can be used for the Tejas and possibly for Indian next generation combat Aircraft."

But there are mixed signals from the establishment. In the same statement, Antony also talked about the possibility of engine import. And the ADA chief, P S Subramaniam, has told Business Standard: "There are many Tejas already flying that will soon need new engines and we will use the Kaveri-Snecma engines for those. The Tejas Mark 2 will be powered by either GE F-414 or the EJ200."

According to ADA sources, both the GE and Eurojet engines have fully met the technical requirements for the Tejas Mk 2. The Eurojet EJ200 is the more modern, lighter, flexible engine and has impressed the IAF. The GE F-414 is significantly heavier, but provides more power. The Indian tender for 99 engines (plus options) demands that all engines after the first 10 be built in India.
 
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Armand2REP

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The M88-3 will have over 90 KN of thrust, not 83-85. With the decreased weight it will have a higher T/W than the Eurojet or GE414 and it has also undergone the ECO programme.
 

vijay jagannathan

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I have been saying this for a long time. when it has been crystal lear that Kaveri will not power the LCA as far back as 2007 and the search for alternative engine had been decided upon what in the hell has it taken so long for the concerned authorities to even finalise the engine deal. The negotiations have not even started. The DRDO /GTRE simply has to stop playing dirty games when it comes to this kind of decision making. Moreover they have not maintained clarity on the issue. atleast being forthright will help things. Maybe what is being said in the above news article may not be 100% but it is the DRDO/GTRE fault that they haven't been clear and gone on the silent mode regarding the engine issue.

As far as I know the kaveri -snecma JV is to provide a engine with a thrust between 85-90 KN and reduce weight issues and optimise performance. The current Kaveri thrust is in the region of 75-80 KN,and is overweight and suboptimal performance.

The snecma JV will take about 4-5 years to frutify. Why then is the DRDO trying to sneak in the kaveri engine through the back door and stalling the EJ/GE414 selection? The IAF no wonder will be infuriated if this is true. Looks like Arjun MBT story part 2.

can the DRDO chief and GTRE chief clear the air please? They must step forward if this issue is to be sorted ASAP.
 

vijay jagannathan

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What PS meant perhaps was the LCA mark 1 may be retro fitted with the GTRE-Snecma engine as and when it is ready which is about 4-5 years and when it provides the required thrust of atleast 90 KN.
But the fact that is clouding the issue is there are multiple mouthpieces and single information window.
 

EagleOne

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The project for design and development of Kaveri engine was sanctioned to achieve the interim flight standard for LCA 'Tejas' integration. Though the Kaveri engine was not fully meeting the requirement of LCA 'Tejas', it provided a platform for gas turbine technology development in the country.



This project was the first indigenous aero-engine development project in the country. Besides, some of the reasons for delay in the project are:-



(i) Ab-initio development of state-of-the-art gas turbine technologies.

(ii) Technical/technological complexities.

(iii) Lack of availability of critical equipment & materials and denial of technologies by the technologically advanced countries.

(iv) Lack of availability of test facilities in the country necessitating testing abroad.

(v) Non availability of skilled/technically specialized manpower.



Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) associated itself with a premier scientific organisation of Russia i.e., Central Institute of Aviation Motors (CIAM) with an objective of fine tuning of Kaveri engine performance. This association brought GTRE per se Kaveri project in higher platform, resulting in successful completion of one major milestone i.e. altitude testing, simulating Kaveri engine performance at different altitude and Mach No. Subsequently, one of Kaveri prototype (K9) is being integrated with IL-76 aircraft at Gromov Flight Research Institute (GFRI), Russia for ground and flight tests, of Flying Test Bed (FTB) trials, this will be the second major milestone to be achieved. These two milestones would make 'Kaveri engine flightworthy.



The details of the funds allocated and utilized are as under:



Financial Year
Allocation

(Rs in crore)
Expenditure

(Rs in crore)

2007-2008
157.05
152.51

2008-2009
153.54
153.54

2009-2010
123.20
122.06




This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri C Rajendran in Lok Sabha today.

http://pib.nic.in/release/release.asp?relid=63983
 

luckyy

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going with Snecma for the JV is a better option in long run then buying F414 or EJ200........

HAL is doing very well with helicopter engine JV with french...
 

neo29

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going with Snecma for the JV is a better option in long run then buying F414 or EJ200........

HAL is doing very well with helicopter engine JV with french...
JV with Snecma for LCA engine is currently waste of time. Already falling short in fighters and projected delayed considerably. The only current solution is to buy the engine. JV may be done fr AMCA engine.
 

nitesh

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good news guys:

http://frontierindia.net/indian-army-t-72-tanks-now-have-night-vision

On kaveri engine development he said that GTRE has successfully completed one major milestone i.e. altitude testing, simulating Kaveri engine performance at different altitude and Mach No_One of Kaveri prototype (K9) is being integrated with IL-76 aircraft at Gromov Flight Research Institute (GFRI), Russia for ground and flight tests, of Flying Test Bed (FTB) trials, this will be the second major milestone to be achieved. These two milestones would make 'Kaveri engine flightworthy.
 

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