Kaveri Engine

[lcafanboy]

I think even now we should have gone with americans from the point we had some issues with kaveri. Today we could have had some already tested and certified engine

Had Americans been co-operative India would have definitely gone to them, We had gone to them for LCA development what they did? They sanctioned us which delayed LCA. Americans do not give anything and if they do give they keep keys with them and when ever they want they can deny us and squeeze our balls. Look how Britain has been made PUPPY by them they have to wag tails when uncle wants.

With Rafale deal India will be independent from sanction and will own the technology, which we can use for developing newer engines down the lane.

 

[rudresh]

US outrightly refused technology transfer. Rafale was negotiated only for technology. When India felt doubtful that technology transfer won't take place, they strictly told rafale that the orders will be only after technology transfer. Till then, just 36 rafales were ordered. If France doesn't give a proper engine by 2018, there will be no 200 orders. First, rafale has been asked to prove that they can do it and then handover the built kaveri to india by 2018. Later, the manufacturing lines and technology should be transferred as an offset for additional orders.

Once Rafale is delivered it will be 2027-28, by when AMCA will be ready for serial production. Without AMCA designed yet, India has to meet its urgent needs. That is where rafale comes in. Once AMCA is ready, india will buy only AMCA, LCA and a heavy fighter like PAK-FA. It will take upto 2027-8 for that.

Americans did not not refuse to test and certify the engine they denied needed metallurgy and asked copyright for the engine. So it got sidelined.

What French have made to India to become independent.

AMCA design , critical tech etc etc have already getting frozen what help will Rafale do after that......90 + kn kaveri can be done by ourselves if they only plan to get it to 90kn means it is good for nothing neither LCA nor AMCA ...and by the way which engine they are going to put for those 200 rafales

 

[Vijyes]

Americans did not not refuse to test and certify the engine they denied needed metallurgy and asked copyright for the engine. So it got sidelined.

What French have made to India to become independent.

AMCA design , critical tech etc etc have already getting frozen what help will Rafale do after that......90 + kn kaveri can be done by ourselves if they only plan to get it to 90kn means it is good for nothing neither LCA nor AMCA ...and by the way which engine they are going to put for those 200 rafales

The kaveri engine is the key, safran will help in that. Rafales can't use Kaveri as the size, airframe are too different.
Even GE F414 gives 64/98kN, expecting Kaveri to exceed 100kN is a big deal. Even a 100kN Kaveri will be more than sufficient for LCA Mk2 and AMCA twin engine jets.

What India needs from france are - RAM paint, kaveri engine parts. Even the RAM paint has been developed in India though I am not sure if the quality matches that of Rafale's.

Also, considering that Indian fleet needs urgent replenishment, India needs lot of planes by 2027 when MiG21 and MiG27 etc will be replaced. Since, India has to buy planes anyways, buy those which will give the maximum technology transfers

 

[Prashant12]

MANIK small turbofan engine

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/

 

[lcafanboy]

by the way which engine they are going to put for those 200 rafales

Improved Snecma M88 with 55kn dry and 83kn wet thrust, instead of 50kndry/75kn wet French Rafales. And also with longer life of 8000 hrs. Do you any more arguments. Please read my earlier posts. Rafales are practically free for India.

 

[lcafanboy]

90 + kn kaveri can be done by ourselves if they only plan to get it to 90kn means it is good for nothing neither LCA nor AMCA

It is 60kn dry 90-95kn wet enough for LCA MK1A. Further development of Kaveri will continue with K-10 with 115-120kn engine again with snecma. Snecma will use present technology of M884e with 90kn thrust, which it is further improving it to 120kn with newer technologies same will be used for further improvement to Kaveri too which can be used for LCA MK2 & AMCA.

 

[Vijyes]

It is 60kn dry 90-95kn wet enough for LCA MK1A. Further development of Kaveri will continue with K-10 with 115-120kn engine again with snecma. Snecma will use present technology of M884e with 90kn thrust, which it is further improving it to 120kn with newer technologies same will be used for further improvement to Kaveri too which can be used for LCA MK2 & AMCA.

I don't think 115kN is possible. 100-105kN would be the best possible one. Even GE couldn't make F414 to 105kN. Of course, 100kN is quite enough for Mk2 and twin engine will be more than enough for AMCA. AMCA is 2 times the weight of LCA Mk2 and twin engine will be sufficient for lifting it. Hell, Rafale with 50/75kN twin engine can take off from aircraft carriers and supercruise at 1.4Mach with 18 ton weight. Why can't AMCA weighing 24 ton take off and supercruise at 66/100kN twin engine?
We should first focus on manufacturing capability of the engine. Making one or two engine in laboratory is different from mass manufacturing it for thousands of AMCA and LCA

 

[Alok Arya]

I don't think 115kN is possible. 100-105kN would be the best possible one. Even GE couldn't make F414 to 105kN. Of course, 100kN is quite enough for Mk2 and twin engine will be more than enough for AMCA. AMCA is 2 times the weight of LCA Mk2 and twin engine will be sufficient for lifting it. Hell, Rafale with 50/75kN twin engine can take off from aircraft carriers and supercruise at 1.4Mach with 18 ton weight. Why can't AMCA weighing 24 ton take off and supercruise at 66/100kN twin engine?
We should first focus on manufacturing capability of the engine. Making one or two engine in laboratory is different from mass manufacturing it for thousands of AMCA and LCA

K 10 will be 110 kn safe rated , with 120 kn to 125 kn max . 400 cores fund allocated with start of project from 2017 , with project completion date of 2020 .
K9 will be 95 kn max with safe rated to 88 kn wet and 57 kn dry with 30:1 pressure ratio with wide cord blade with fourth stage blisk absolutely equal to f404 . Snacma start to transfer manufacturing technology in 2020 for both after larger mii signed with foc stage gtre max production start in late 2021 .

 

[deepak ghanvatkar]

Had Americans been co-operative India would have definitely gone to them, We had gone to them for LCA development what they did? They sanctioned us which delayed LCA. Americans do not give anything and if they do give they keep keys with them and when ever they want they can deny us and squeeze our balls. Look how Britain has been made PUPPY by them they have to wag tails when uncle wants.

With Rafale deal India will be independent from sanction and will own the technology, which we can use for developing newer engines down the lane.

Americans will not give anything.

If they give then they will be like
Shylock of Merchant of Venice wanting a pound of flesh nearest to heart

 

[deepak ghanvatkar]

Americans already see India as competitors and look at the hatred they have for Indians the recent murder has put to light the brewing hate.

With such hate do you believe they would have sold anything?

When India asked for electronic exchange they were wanting to sell the scrapped cross bar exchange so India had to put up CDOT.

So, India will have to search for Indian talent in US for Jet Engine and The killing of the Indian is a god sent opportunity to knock the doors of NRI and PIO to develop Jet propulsion engine for which Kaveri was conceived....

 

[rudresh]

Please take some time to answer my questions

I know that we have made some advancement in scb but tell me why can't we completely implement it?

What if French show middle finger after 200 rafales.

What rafale can do extra that the present air crafts in iaf cannot do ?

What is so great about rafale fighter ? What are the several technologies that they will transfer?

What is the cost of 200 rafales?

Why shouldn't we think of 500 amca instead of those 200 rafales?

Will those 200 rafale fighters come with kaveri engine,Indian radar and technology that we have developed now with a lot of pain?

How does it help amca? If not what is the use of that tot ?

How much technology the French have transferred to India for the soooo called shakthi engine after so many engines are made even though there was a mandatory clause for 70% ToT? And why is HAL developing HTFE?

Hey baghawan I only will answer my questions I feel giddy on seeing the reply

1. The advancements made can be added to the final stage of the engine only. If added to any intermediate stage the other stages will melt as the temp increases towards the end ...this is where we need France to supply with parts. If they are providing some parts we can manage others ......and improve bypass along with the 30:1 pressure.

What happened to shakthi engine TOT they were mandated to provide 70% TOT where is that they have already shown middle finger during the previous agreement and they will do the same ....if given a chance. Even if they give some tech the tech will not be a recent one.

Rafale is no match to Su30 Mki in any way the upgraded Mki will eat rafale .....raw. It can detect rafale at a longer distance and kill it before only. If it is with brahmos god knows what happens to rafale .....it may not think even coming its way.so there is nothing extra really after Mki to super sukhoi upgrade.

Really I don't know what technologies are on offer I am certain that the technologies will only aid rafale. By the time they will get it it will be of no much use. The metal alloys that they are using on M88 eco 4 will may never come or may take Min 10-15 years to come even if you buy 400 rafales.

Cost of 200 rafale fighters you decide - it will eat up all the indegeneous programme funds and no more Amca rest of the funds will be for other purchases - why couldn't they were able to give the tech for the MMRCA contest for 126 planes which is official unofficial figure at that time was also 200 plus planes.suddenly what has changed in rafale fighters so they are mulling of TOT the same drama was done by sarkozy......I will tell u what happened during the contest there were 6 contenders TOT was a possibility and after rafale was selected the French voice suddenly got changed and asked that HAL was not able to absorb tech and selected an Indian traitor reliance which has not even assembled basic trainer before to magically manufacture rafale to French standards of screwdrivergiri which would not have been a possibility with an organization like HAL which has assembled and built some aircraft.

 

[kunal1123]

I don't think 115kN is possible. 100-105kN would be the best possible one. Even GE couldn't make F414 to 105kN. Of course, 100kN is quite enough for Mk2 and twin engine will be more than enough for AMCA. AMCA is 2 times the weight of LCA Mk2 and twin engine will be sufficient for lifting it. Hell, Rafale with 50/75kN twin engine can take off from aircraft carriers and supercruise at 1.4Mach with 18 ton weight. Why can't AMCA weighing 24 ton take off and supercruise at 66/100kN twin engine?
We should first focus on manufacturing capability of the engine. Making one or two engine in laboratory is different from mass manufacturing it for thousands of AMCA and LCA

well all three engine eurojet ej200, ge f414 and kaveri is of same class, and both eurojet and ge is targeting for 78+/120+ thrust , so t think kaveri can also achieve 78+/120+ rating but that up-to how much our GTRE can achieve
some one mention that they are targeting first 60/95 kn thrust so i think it first for lca mk1a/mk2 then they will be going for upgrade it even if they able to achieve 70+/110+ kn that will be sufficient for AMCA to make it super-cruise to 1.5+mach (more dry T/W WRT Rafael ).

 

[Akshay_Fenix]

Hey baghawan I only will answer my questions I feel giddy on seeing the reply

Cost of 200 rafale fighters you decide - it will eat up all the indegeneous programme funds and no more Amca rest of the funds will be for other purchases - why couldn't they were able to give the tech for the MMRCA contest for 126 planes which is official unofficial figure at that time was also 200 plus planes.suddenly what has changed in rafale fighters so they are mulling of TOT the same drama was done by sarkozy......

There is an offset clause, half of the money will be invested back in India.
AMCA will start its production in 2035, what are we supposed to do till then? Already the squadron strength is reduced to 36 from a much needed number of 42 to fight a two front war.

 

[tejas warrior]

Squadron strength of 36 is just one way of looking of it.

Every year IAF is getting 12+ MKIs and let me tell you each of them are at least equivalent to 4 of retiring Mig21s/Mig27s etc. (Let me not remind you all about their exercise with F16s & Typhoons).

As long of we have 200+ MKIs, backed with Air Defence missiles, Pakis will only scramble theirs F16s/Junk fighters in Lahore/Karachi to protect themselves (they will not dream in sending them near Indian boders).

Chinese are potent force but IAF is good enough to handle them even with this strength.

We have also started getting Tejas & in couple of years Rafaels which are much more potent than retiring fighters.. and add this to Super Sukhoi.

So, even with lower numbers of fighters, IAF is actually getting much much Stronger every year.

 

[rudresh]

Improved Snecma M88 with 55kn dry and 83kn wet thrust, instead of 50kndry/75kn wet French Rafales. And also with longer life of 8000 hrs. Do you any more arguments. Please read my earlier posts. Rafales are practically free for India.

Then what is the use of kaveri as we are getting Ge414 IN6 at 98kn for tejas we can get Ge 414 EPE at 125 kn and put to AMCA.Hence no need of 200 rafales. If they can't manage their own aircraft for kaveri what else they can manage ........already UAE wanted rafale with 90kn engine and the French asked 2billion for the modify the rafale for their own engines. Why do we need kaveri if we cannot use it on Tejas,AMCA or Rafale ......are we a banana republic?????

 

[Vijyes]

Then what is the use of kaveri as we are getting Ge414 IN6 at 98kn for tejas we can get Ge 414 EPE at 125 kn and put to AMCA.Hence no need of 200 rafales. If they can't manage their own aircraft for kaveri what else they can manage ........already UAE wanted rafale with 90kn engine and the French asked 2billion for the modify the rafale for their own engines. Why do we need kaveri if we cannot use it on Tejas,AMCA or Rafale ......are we a banana republic?????

Kaveri is to be used in LCA and in AMCA. Period. Rafale is not meant for kaveri engines. We are not ordering F414 for AMCA. They are just samples for testing LCA Mk2 and AMCA. They will not be used when actual production begins. India aims to be an independent power. India remembers how US, UK refused to supply in Kargil war. In 1965 war too, US refused supply. India doesn't want to use Foreign engines

UPA is funded by foreign governments to destabilize and weaken India. They will do random things. Don't try to rationalise their actions.

 

[rudresh]

Further India needs almost 4000-6000 jet engines over 20 yrs time which will cost us $25-30 billion over that period in Forex which will now be made in India which will save money so practically Rafales are free for India.

5) Agreed very good idea to buy 500 AMCA, do you have your plane ready? as we need it right now, do you have plants ready? has it been tested/proven, IAF sqdn strength is down to just 30 sanctioned 42, minimum need is 45 and if no new plane will be added will be down to just 13 Su30 mki, 3 jaguars, 3 mig 29upg, and 2.5 mirage, total 21.5 sqdns by 2022 as rest all mig 21s, mig27s, pre-2000



7) Rafale will come with MII part, the very companies involved in making parts for Rafale will supply for AMCA too like composite body parts made by Reliance Dssault JV company. KAVERI will be further developed to K-10 by Snecma with 115-120kn for AMCA, this engine can be manufactured in Safran plant Goa..

8) We are getting Jet engine technology not only for Kaveri but also for HAL HTFE-25 too which ahs 25kn dry power and will be improved to 35-38KN and with after burner 55-57KN.

Further India needs 6000 engines of 90kn ???? For which aircraft ????

Tejas mark 2 requires 100- 105kn engine for air force version for navy you tell.

AMCA needs 115 to 125 kn.

If that engine is not suitable for any of them , why do we need 6000 engines.

When will AMCA come? if 2035 according to you means that you are staying in LA LA land and please come out of it .....it will be by 2020-2024. By that time even French cannot make 200 planes. According to best possibility even the jv engine comes in 2018. When will the negotiations will start and complete ????(2018-2020)

When will French complete fly away condition planes (2020-2022)

When will French complete hand holding screwdrivergiri to reliance in CKD and skd kits (2022-2028)

When will French start to transfer TOT to reliance (2028-2032).

When will we get 50-60% indegeneously built 200 rafale (2032-2050)????????


See it for AMCA
It will before 2024 into serial production.

 

[rudresh]

No one is trying to undrestand my point

If French intend to make kaveri which has been alive for many years (under testing and upgrades) to 90 kn only, I don't use we (Indian's) but I use they ( French ) need min 5-6 years to design an engine for 125 kn and min 3-4 years for testing.Do we wait for so long for engines for AMCA.

All the three should get a single engine in the 95-115kn to succeed.

 

[rudresh]

No one is trying to undrestand my point

If French intend to make kaveri which has been alive for many years (under testing and upgrades) to 90 kn only, I don't use we (Indian's) but I use they ( French ) need min 5-6 years to design an engine for 125 kn and min 3-4 years for testing.Do we wait for so long for engines for AMCA.

 

[Vijyes]

No one is trying to undrestand my point

If French intend to make kaveri which has been alive for many years (under testing and upgrades) to 90 kn only, I don't use we (Indian's) but I use they ( French ) need min 5-6 years to design an engine for 125 kn and min 3-4 years for testing.Do we wait for so long for engines for AMCA.

For God's sake, India doesn't need 115kN engines. India just needs 100kN engines. 115kN is a bonus. Rafale has 50/75kN engine and can supercruise at 1.4Mach. Its full weight is 18.5ton. AMCA weighs 24 tons. With 66/100kN engines, it has the same thrust to weight ratio as Rafales. So, it should also be able to supercruise at 1.4 Mach. Minimum supercruise speed is 1.2Mach for 100kN engine. Why are you so desperately screeching for 115kN engines. Tomorrow you may start crying for 170kN engine. Why do you need 115kN so desperately?