Kaveri Engine

[Prashant12]

During #AeroIndia2019 (next show) #Tejas will fly with Kaveri engine. PV1 will be revived with changes in rear fuselage, says @DRDO_India

 

[Scrutator]

During #AeroIndia2019 (next show) #Tejas will fly with Kaveri engine. PV1 will be revived with changes in rear fuselage, says @DRDO_India

WOW!!! That's hard to believe!! In two years, they'll have enough confidence to mount Kaveri on a SINGLE engined aircraft????

 

[Scrutator]

WOW!!! That's hard to believe!! In two years, they'll have enough confidence to mount Kaveri on a SINGLE engined aircraft????

HAHA. someone doesn't have the confidence!!!

 

[Prashant12]

WOW!!! That's hard to believe!! In two years, they'll have enough confidence to mount Kaveri on a SINGLE engined aircraft????

Because France has offered to help to revive Kaveri engine as part of Rafale Offsets.

 

[Scrutator]

Because France has offered to help to revive Kaveri engine as part of Rafale Offsets.

Sure. But doesn't it take 1-2 years to design/build new engine and then another 1-2 years of flights on IL-76/Mig29 before a pilot will put his life at risk with a sole unproven engine?

 

[Prashant12]

Sure. But doesn't it take 1-2 years to design/build new engine and then another 1-2 years of flights on IL-76/Mig29 before a pilot will put his life at risk with a sole unproven engine?

NEW DELHI: India’s quest to develop its own fighter jet engine got a leg up after a $2-million consultancy agreement was finalised with leading French defence manufacturer Safran to help revive the Kaveri project.

The project stalled in 2014 after the Kaveri gas turbine engine developed for combat planes and unmanned aircraft was unable to provide the required power thrust — a fact French experts expect to correct after study.

Initial assessments by the French company show that 25-30% more work is needed for the Kaveri engine to be combat-worthy.

A detailed joint development plan will be drawn up that could use offset credits — the obligation is 50% of contract cost, which translates to over 3 billion euros — coming from the Rafale fighter jet deal.

As reported by ET in July, France has offered a 1-billion euro investment to revive the project. Several rounds of discussions have already taken place since January between Safran, which has developed the M88 engines for Rafale, and Indian developers.

Apart from the initial consultancy fees, India may not need to spend on development as the French side has proposed to make the Kaveri flight-worthy within 18 months for integration into the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft by 2020.

The Indian Air Force is committed to buying at least 80 of the LCA Mk 1A fighters that will meet higher technical requirements than the version inducted this year.

The aircraft is currently powered by American GE 404 engines that faced a procurement delay after the nuclear tests in 1998, causing a setback to the Tejas programme. A joint working group on jet engine technology has also been formed with the US under the Defence Technology and Trade Initiative (DTTI).

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...roject-being-revived/articleshow/55698539.cms

 

[Scrutator]

NEW DELHI: India’s quest to develop its own fighter jet engine got a leg up after a $2-million consultancy agreement was finalised with leading French defence manufacturer Safran to help revive the Kaveri project.

The project stalled in 2014 after the Kaveri gas turbine engine developed for combat planes and unmanned aircraft was unable to provide the required power thrust — a fact French experts expect to correct after study.

Initial assessments by the French company show that 25-30% more work is needed for the Kaveri engine to be combat-worthy.

A detailed joint development plan will be drawn up that could use offset credits — the obligation is 50% of contract cost, which translates to over 3 billion euros — coming from the Rafale fighter jet deal.

As reported by ET in July, France has offered a 1-billion euro investment to revive the project. Several rounds of discussions have already taken place since January between Safran, which has developed the M88 engines for Rafale, and Indian developers.

Apart from the initial consultancy fees, India may not need to spend on development as the French side has proposed to make the Kaveri flight-worthy within 18 months for integration into the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft by 2020.

The Indian Air Force is committed to buying at least 80 of the LCA Mk 1A fighters that will meet higher technical requirements than the version inducted this year.

The aircraft is currently powered by American GE 404 engines that faced a procurement delay after the nuclear tests in 1998, causing a setback to the Tejas programme. A joint working group on jet engine technology has also been formed with the US under the Defence Technology and Trade Initiative (DTTI).

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...roject-being-revived/articleshow/55698539.cms

Thanks. I have seen the reporting on the Rafale's offer and their aggressive timeline - which is essentially a 'sales pitch'. Obviously they're not factoring in the test schedule. I can bet Tejas won't fly with Kaveri in 2019 (I would so ecstatically be surprised if it did)!

 

[lcafanboy]

Thanks. I have seen the reporting on the Rafale's offer and their aggressive timeline - which is essentially a 'sales pitch'. Obviously they're not factoring in the test schedule. I can bet Tejas won't fly with Kaveri in 2019 (I would be so ecstatically be surprised if it did)!

Bet you, you are in for surprise. France and Dassault needs huge order and India will only sign deal after Safran delivers Kaveri. And France also knows that this deal has to be signed by 2018 before elections and they are working on Kaveri from 2015 and had promised to deliver it in 4 years, 2 yrs for completing and 2 yrs for testing so they will be finishing it by this year itself and will go for bench testing and mid next year can be integrated with LCA pv1 for flight testing.

 

[Alok Arya]

Thanks. I have seen the reporting on the Rafale's offer and their aggressive timeline - which is essentially a 'sales pitch'. Obviously they're not factoring in the test schedule. I can bet Tejas won't fly with Kaveri in 2019 (I would so ecstatically be surprised if it did)!

You will be surprise to hear that new of Tejas fly with Kaveri will come earlier than 2019 . In 2019 it will be full combat menuver for international community with certification to be completed in end of 2019 and Kaveri goes in mass production in in 2020 .
Actually Kaveri mainly lagging in metallurgy which is coming from France in form of already certified metallurgy and this cut sort the development time . Kaveri has been flight tested to certain extent and with improve certified metallurgy further test flying will be done in shorter time span .

 

[Vijyes]

Thanks. I have seen the reporting on the Rafale's offer and their aggressive timeline - which is essentially a 'sales pitch'. Obviously they're not factoring in the test schedule. I can bet Tejas won't fly with Kaveri in 2019 (I would so ecstatically be surprised if it did)!

Safran already has proven technology. It will not take long time to correct kaveri engine as it is almost complete except for a few tweaking of compression stage and 3rd gen SC technology. Safran is charging 1 billion for that, not doing it free.

Also, they know that if UPA comes back in 2019, they will not get the orders for more Rafales without kickbacks. Safran needs funds to keep france independent from USA hegemony. So, they can't afford to play delaying tactics with India.

 

[lcafanboy]

Sure. But doesn't it take 1-2 years to design/build new engine and then another 1-2 years of flights on IL-76/Mig29 before a pilot will put his life at risk with a sole unproven engine?

Frankly speaking, it takes around 10 years to develop any aero engine and not 2 to 4 years you mentioned and that too based on a proven engine from scratch it may take even longer.

Having said that Kaveri is a very advance flat rated working engine (only other flat engine being the one in F-35) the design and concept is superior, also when Kaveri was tested on IL-76 test bed in Russia it performed better to Chinese jet engine which was also tested on same test bed.

Now coming on to why Kaveri was not performing is we lacked in metallurgy and alloys needed for hot section and some exotic technologies like Blisks and ceramic for use in jet engine. It is here Safran is helping us, engine is already very advance and superior to Chinese and Russian engines design wise. Safran is using proven alloys, Blisks, ceramic to improve hot section of Kaveri which will enable Kaveri to pump out 90/95KN of thrust with 60/62 KN of dry thrust. And also bring down the weight by 150-200kgs.

BTW they are not doing it for free they are charging us $1 billion through offset for Rafale deal.

 

[Scrutator]

Frankly speaking, it takes around 10 years to develop any aero engine and not 2 to 4 years you mentioned and that too based on a proven engine from scratch it may take even longer.

I know. I meant to say that there will be AT THE LEAST 1-2 years of additional design/development work remaining.

Having said that Kaveri is a very advance flat rated working engine (only other flat engine being the one in F-35) the design and concept is superior, also when Kaveri was tested on IL-76 test bed in Russia it performed better to Chinese jet engine which was also tested on same test bed.

Only Kaveri's core was tested on IL-76, the complete engine was not!

Now coming on to why Kaveri was not performing is we lacked in metallurgy and alloys needed for hot section and some exotic technologies like Blisks and ceramic for use in jet engine. It is here Safran is helping us, engine is already very advance and superior to Chinese and Russian engines design wise. Safran is using proven alloys, Blisks, ceramic to improve hot section of Kaveri which will enable Kaveri to pump out 90/95KN of thrust with 60/62 KN of dry thrust. And also bring down the weight by 150-200kgs.
BTW they are not doing it for free they are charging us $1 billion through offset for Rafale deal.

Fingers crossed on that buddy!! I know they'll be charging an arm and a leg; there help may also prove fruitful. I am just skeptical that by 2019 Kaveri will be flying on Tejas. Most likely 2021-2022.

But I'll root for your estimate to be right

 

[mattster]

I think what really going to happen here is the SAFRAN is going to take their M88 engines and replace a few parts with equivalent Indian parts and rebadge the engine as "Kaveri".......then everyone can say it an indigenous engine.

As far as manufacturing the engine, they will transfer manufacturing technology but not the design knowledge. The schedule to induct the new "Kaveri" will slip again and again, but no one will really care.

Bottom line:

1) IAF get the Rafale fighters that it so badly needs, and Rafale gets additional orders for more fighters after the first batch of 36 have been delivered.

2) ADA and government get to keep the LCA program going, and the IAF inducts a squadron of out of date 3G+ single-engine aircraft that it really does not want, but can definitely use it to train young pilots.

3) The Politicians, Defense Minister, DOD, PM, ADA and DRDO all get to save face, and everyone is happy.

 

[Pash]

^^^^
Highly disagree with your assumptions

Read post from @BON PLAN, where he has mentioned Kaveri could be also helpful for even Safran.

About TEJAS, Please come out of your shell, every thing from USA is not of good and god send (Even Humans).

 

[Vijyes]

I think what really going to happen here is the SAFRAN is going to take their M88 engines and replace a few parts with equivalent Indian parts and rebadge the engine as "Kaveri".......then everyone can say it an indigenous engine.

As far as manufacturing the engine, they will transfer manufacturing technology but not the design knowledge. The schedule to induct the new "Kaveri" will slip again and again, but no one will really care.

Bottom line:

1) IAF get the Rafale fighters that it so badly needs, and Rafale gets additional orders for more fighters after the first batch of 36 have been delivered.

2) ADA and government get to keep the LCA program going, and the IAF inducts a squadron of out of date 3G+ single-engine aircraft that it really does not want, but can definitely use it to train young pilots.

3) The Politicians, Defense Minister, DOD, PM, ADA and DRDO all get to save face, and everyone is happy.

India is not desperate for Rafale. India can get other planes too. Rafale is chosen for the technology of engine. Kaveri is not just a concept, but a functional engine with 80KN thrust that merely lacks metallurgy. Kaveri is meant for the older generation planes of lower thrust. There is no safety issues as such and Kaveri has much better thrust than RD25 engines of MiG21. The very transfer of manufacturing technology is more than enough. There is no need for designing. India can get those metallurgy too but will need 6-7 years which will create great delays for its AMCA and LCA Mk2 project. India doesn't want US engines as it remembers how US stopped supply during 1965 war and Kargil war.

 

[lcafanboy]

I know. I meant to say that there will be AT THE LEAST 1-2 years of additional design/development work remaining.

Work on Kaveri was underway since the negotiation of Rafale deal. We got this jet engine technology through some very hard nosed negotiation where we even threatened to pull out of deal this is also th reason we cancelled MMRCA deal only then France and Safran obliged. We signed the deal only when we saw Kaveri working and now it is being bench tested and will be soon flight tested and that is when final MII deal for some 250 Rafales will be signed.

 

[lcafanboy]

Only Kaveri's core was tested on IL-76, the complete engine was not!

Nope full engine was tested and results were better than chinese engine.:biggrin2:

 

[Vijyes]

I know. I meant to say that there will be AT THE LEAST 1-2 years of additional design/development work remaining.


Only Kaveri's core was tested on IL-76, the complete engine was not!



Fingers crossed on that buddy!! I know they'll be charging an arm and a leg; there help may also prove fruitful. I am just skeptical that by 2019 Kaveri will be flying on Tejas. Most likely 2021-2022.

But I'll root for your estimate to be right

2019 doesn't seem to be the induction date of Kaveri engine. It could just be a prototype and technology demonstrator. Unless IAF is extremely finicky, it will fly. The engine which will be used might be the one tested by Safran, making it reliable enough. Once TOT happens, India will take some time to manufacture engines. It is unlikely that 2019 will see induction of Kaveri, just demonstration of a finalised prototype approved by Safran

 

[lcafanboy]

Fingers crossed on that buddy!! I know they'll be charging an arm and a leg; there help may also prove fruitful. I am just skeptical that by 2019 Kaveri will be flying on Tejas. Most likely 2021-2022.

France and Dassault have just 1 to 1-1/2 year to sign the deal because after that elections in India will be there and they can't take chances with corrupt Khangress. So expect first flight by next year.:biggrin2:

 

[lcafanboy]

2019 doesn't seem to be the induction date of Kaveri engine. It could just be a prototype and technology demonstrator. Unless IAF is extremely finicky, it will fly. The engine which will be used might be the one tested by Safran, making it reliable enough. Once TOT happens, India will take some time to manufacture engines. It is unlikely that 2019 will see induction of Kaveri, just demonstration of a finalised prototype approved by Safran

It will be directly used on LCA MK1A which will go into production in 2021-22. Also tender & order for 20 engines was already placed, so other than hot parts rest of engines might be getting ready, while hot parts in start maybe supplied by Safran. They are making jet engine plant in Goa for MII Rafales.:biggrin2: