Kaveri Engine

[lcafanboy]

I think what really going to happen here is the SAFRAN is going to take their M88 engines and replace a few parts with equivalent Indian parts and rebadge the engine as "Kaveri".......then everyone can say it an indigenous engine.

As far as manufacturing the engine, they will transfer manufacturing technology but not the design knowledge. The schedule to induct the new "Kaveri" will slip again and again, but no one will really care.

Nope Kaveri engine design is very advance and is good enough. We only lack metallurgy and some exotic processes like Blisk & ceramic coating which they will use and transfer technology to improve the engine performance and reduce weight. Also they have to deliver the engine by next year before election to get the bigger MII Rafale deal.:biggrin2:

 

[lcafanboy]

2) ADA and government get to keep the LCA program going, and the IAF inducts a squadron of out of date 3G+ single-engine aircraft that it really does not want, but can definitely use it to train young pilots.

If LCA MK1A with unstable RSS frame and quadruplex FBW system, GaN AESA, Internal EW, IRST, and with 70% of its frame covered by RAM composites, and Radar absorbing Paint, VLO due to small size, Y-duct to conceal engine blades is 3rd gen Fighter then all American Fighters too are 3rd gen Fighters and F-22 & F-35 are 3.5 gen Fighters. Compare all features then speak LCA MK1A will be out and out 4.5 gen Fighter comparable to Gripen.

 

[Vijyes]

Nope Kaveri engine design is very advance and is good enough. We only lack metallurgy and some exotic processes like Blisk & ceramic coating which they will use and transfer technology to improve the engine performance and reduce weight. Also they have to deliver the engine by next year before election to get the bigger MII Rafale deal.:biggrin2:

Thanks to the extremely corrupt khangress, it is a compulsion to Safran to deliver by eaely 2018 itself so that additional rafales can be ordered in fiscal year 2018-19, before election

 

[Vijyes]

If LCA MK1A with unstable RSS frame and quadruplex FBW system, GaN AESA, Internal EW, IRST, and with 70% of its frame covered by RAM composites, and Radar absorbing Paint, VLO due to small size, Y-duct to conceal engine blades is 3rd gen Fighter then all American Fighters too are 3rd gen Fighters and F-22 & F-35 are 3.5 gen Fighters. Compare all features then speak LCA MK1A will be out and out 4.5 gen Fighter comparable to Gripen.

LCA is 4th generation fighter, not 4.5 generation. For 4.5 generation, we need AESA, refueling pod. It is not as bad as MiG 21 which was 3rd generation. But it lacks some avionics to be called 4.5 generation. It is upgradable by adding avionics like AESA to 4+ generation. With refuelling, it will be 4.5 generation. For 5th generation, we will need stealth features which is not much in LCA. LCA is definitely 4th generation but not 4.5 yet, not until Mk2 with all these features are inducted

 

[lcafanboy]

LCA is 4th generation fighter, not 4.5 generation. For 4.5 generation, we need AESA, refueling pod. It is not as bad as MiG 21 which was 3rd generation. But it lacks some avionics to be called 4.5 generation. It is upgradable by adding avionics like AESA to 4+ generation. With refuelling, it will be 4.5 generation. For 5th generation, we will need stealth features which is not much in LCA. LCA is definitely 4th generation but not 4.5 yet, not until Mk2 with all these features are inducted

I had clearly stated LCA MK1A and not LCA at present. LCA MK1A will have all feature mentioned above so it will be 4.5 gen Fighter.

 

[Flame Thrower]

LCA is 4th generation fighter, not 4.5 generation. For 4.5 generation, we need AESA, refueling pod. But it lacks some avionics to be called 4.5 generation. It is upgradable by adding avionics like AESA to 4+ generation. With refuelling, it will be 4.5 generation. For 5th generation, we will need stealth features which is not much in LCA. LCA is definitely 4th generation but not 4.5 yet, not until Mk2 with all these features are inducted

Few additions to your post... LCA MK1 is a 4th gen fighter, but LCA MK1A is 4.5 gen fighter....

Current LCA MK1 will be upgraded to MK1A standards after production of 126 LCAs or you can call MLU for MK1...

Coming to LCA MK2, it is going to be more advanced design, I.e., aerodynamic improvements, bigger engine may be Kaveri/GE F414INS6, Uttam AESA, our own EW suite,
more fuel & payload...
As of now only IN is interested, but I'm sure that IAF will also buy at least 100 Fighters

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Lets stick to the topic ' Kaveri engine' ..

 

[Vijyes]

Few additions to your post... LCA MK1 is a 4th gen fighter, but LCA MK1A is 4.5 gen fighter....

Current LCA MK1 will be upgraded to MK1A standards after production of 126 LCAs or you can call MLU for MK1...

Coming to LCA MK2, it is going to be more advanced design, I.e., aerodynamic improvements, bigger engine may be Kaveri/GE F414INS6, Uttam AESA, our own EW suite,
more fuel & payload...
As of now only IN is interested, but I'm sure that IAF will also buy at least 100 Fighters

The kaveri engine is needed for both LCA Mk2 and AMCA. India intends to replace all its fleet over time by LCA for short range (600km),mainly aimed at pakistan and bangladesh, AMCA stealth for medium ranged (2500km) for China and other countries like Indonesia, gulf mullah-land etc and FGFA for heavy category. Kaveri engine is critically needed for LCA and AMCA for huge expansion of air force without being under the mercy of foreign countries

The requirements of LCA Mk2 is not just for navy but also for IAF. It is just that Mk1A has too low thrust engine to be used by navy. India needs to replace 250 MiG21 by 2027-8. So, unless you are trying to say that IAF intends to replace RD25 of MiG21 by Kaveri engine (kaveri currently is more powerful than RD25) and doesn't require Mk2, I don't see a reason why hundreds of Mk2 will not be ordered by IAF

By the way, I was always wondering why not just replace the engine of MiG 21 by kaveri now itself as kaveri thrust of 78-81kN is higher than 68-72kN of thrust of RD25. That seems like a good idea

 

[Bhoot Pishach]

Nope Kaveri engine design is very advance and is good enough. We only lack metallurgy and some exotic processes like Blisk & ceramic coating which they will use and transfer technology to improve the engine performance and reduce weight. Also they have to deliver the engine by next year before election to get the bigger MII Rafale deal.:biggrin2:

Mr.Parrikar himself is a metallurgical engineer he understands the importance of advance metallurgy. He will eventually along with Mr.Modi force Snecma / Safran to part with metallurgical technology along with 4-5rd gen SC Blade technology.

May be they can also part with Blisk technology.

Kaveri Engine is almost there other then metallurgy, blisk, ceramic coating, composites.

Safran might do some tweaking and refinement in HPT section of core, because of generational change in SCB technology and due to long experience of Safran in Jet Engine Designing and Manufacturing. They are not going to change basic design or drastic changes in the current design of Kaveri.

Please also dont forget the Safran will also learn about "Variable Cycle Engine", WITHOUT "INVESTING SINGLE EURO" from Kaveri.

French very well understands the Kaveri by design and Technology is fairely good and almost complete apart from the things mentioned above.

This is the reason they committed to develop Kaveri further with aggressive timeline of TWO to FOUR Years.

 

[Vijyes]

Nope this is not happening. Mr.Parrikar himself is a metallurgical engineer he understands the importance of advance metallurgy. He will eventually along with Mr.Modi force Snecma / Safran to part with metallurgical technology along with 4-5rd gen SC Blade technology.

May be they can also part with Blisk technology.

Kaveri Engine is almost there other then metallurgy, blisk, ceramic coating, composites.

Safran might do some tweaking and refinement in HPT section of core, because of generational change in SCB technology and due to long experience of Safran in Jet Engine Designing and Manufacturing.

Please also dont forget the Safran will also learn about "Variable Cycle Engine", WITHOUT "INVESTING SINGLE EURO" from Kaveri.

French very well understands the Kaveri by design and Technology is fairely good and almost complete apart from the things mentioned above.

This is the reason they committed to develop Kaveri further with aggressive timeline of TWO to FOUR Years.

Does Safran need to learn variable cycle ffom India? Can't they just import on of the GE F414 engines costing 6 million and reverse engineer it or order some other US plane like F35 and reverse engineer its engine? What is so special in kaveri? Kaveri is good except for metallurgy but not some fantastic engine

 

[IndianHawk]

Nope this is not happening. Mr.Parrikar himself is a metallurgical engineer he understands the importance of advance metallurgy. He will eventually along with Mr.Modi force Snecma / Safran to part with metallurgical technology along with 4-5rd gen SC Blade technology.

May be they can also part with Blisk technology.

Kaveri Engine is almost there other then metallurgy, blisk, ceramic coating, composites.

Safran might do some tweaking and refinement in HPT section of core, because of generational change in SCB technology and due to long experience of Safran in Jet Engine Designing and Manufacturing.

Please also dont forget the Safran will also learn about "Variable Cycle Engine", WITHOUT "INVESTING SINGLE EURO" from Kaveri.

French very well understands the Kaveri by design and Technology is fairely good and almost complete apart from the things mentioned above.

This is the reason they committed to develop Kaveri further with aggressive timeline of TWO to FOUR Years.

Two things are clear to me..

India can't afford to let go Kaveri .We have come too far and it's absolutely critical for our future
And
France needs to feed off Indian defence market to keep it self up to the mark in this era.

So I am optimistic for Kaveri. although I would not read much into speculations for I don't want my heart broken by this engine yet againrison:

@Bhoot Pishach awesome avatar btw.

 

[Bhoot Pishach]

Does Safran need to learn variable cycle ffom India? Can't they just import on of the GE F414 engines costing 6 million and reverse engineer it or order some other US plane like F35 and reverse engineer its engine? What is so special in kaveri? Kaveri is good except for metallurgy but not some fantastic engine

Please dont post crap.


30 character rule sucks.

 

[Vijyes]

Please dont post crap.


30 character rule sucks.

I am just questioning if the Safran is really benefiting technology wise. I know the safran needs Indian orders to keep itself updated wrt to US. But stating that safran will get critical technology from India is overstatement.

 

[Bhoot Pishach]

Two things are clear to me..

India can't afford to let go Kaveri .We have come too far and it's absolutely critical for our future
And
France needs to feed off Indian defence market to keep it self up to the mark in this era.

So I am optimistic for Kaveri. although I would not read much into speculations for I don't want my heart broken by this engine yet againrison:

@Bhoot Pishach awesome avatar btw.

India will eventually reach there both in Metallurgy and SC Blade Tech in 5 to 8 years.

They French, Russians, Americans all knows and understands this very well. That's why all of them want to sell India whatever they can before India reaches that stage, and gates for their exports are closed.

 

[Bhoot Pishach]

I am just questioning if the Safran is really benefiting technology wise. I know the safran needs Indian orders to keep itself updated wrt to US. But stating that safran will get critical technology from India is overstatement.

Read the post carefully French will be "able to learn Variable Cycle Engine" without "expending a Single Euro" into it.

 

[Hemu Vikram Aditya]

Read the post carefully French will be "able to learn Variable Cycle Engine" without "expending a Single Euro" into it.

Haven't they Invested 1Billion euros in it

 

[Vijyes]

India will eventually reach there both in Metallurgy and SC Blade Tech in 5 to 8 years.

They French, Russians, Americans all knows and understands this very well. That's why all of them want to sell India whatever they can before India reaches that stage, and gates for their exports are closed.

Yes, I guess that is why Safran agreed to fasten the process so that they could at least get the order for Rafales in the meantime. India has already developed 2nd gen SC blade according to some members of this board. So, it is only a matter of time. Safran wants it to be a win win situation by helping india to save time and themselves getting orders for Rafale

 

[IndianHawk]

Haven't they Invested 1Billion euros in it

They had to spend it anyway in India for rafeal offset clause

 

[Vijyes]

They had to spend it anyway in India for rafeal offset clause

I am not sure if they invested 1billion or just charged 1billion as consultation fees and service charges

 

[IndianHawk]

I am not sure if they invested 1billion or just charged 1billion as consultation fees and service charges

They have to invest some 3billion into India as per offset clause. 1 billion of which will safraan invest into Kaveri upgrade. I'm sure it will have well defined objective parameters to evaluate that investment is proper.