Kaveri Engine

[Pulkit]

The French tried to scam India under Congress Government. As soon as they won won MMRCA deal they backtracked from engine TOT. But Modi government cancelled the deal gave a bigger lollipop (deal for around 300 Rafales for both IAF and IN now with MII) and arm twisted Frenchies to adhere to engine TOT. Also to make sure they provide proper TOT the deal has been kept on hold and is being progressed with milestones achieved. If Rafale deal is to be signed in JAN then Kaveri engine is almost done only testing on actual fighter remains, since Snecma itself claimed they need only 18 months to get Kaveri working and almost that much time has passed since Modi made announcement in France.

@lcafanboy I do not understand the term TOT being used. Transfer of technology is totally different from providing consultancy on a certain product and is definitely not TOT.
I believe they are working on Kaveri to find the loop holes using the expertise and experience they have in engines.

Even if they get into a JV and plan a new engine then also it will be very little TOT which will be specifically related to the metallurgical properties of the core of the Engine as DRDO has been struggling in that field also.

They are not gonna share all the details about the engine but provide consultancy.

 

[Pulkit]

@lcafanboy Please refer to this ...though this was not my point of reference.....\



http://idrw.org/french-boost-to-jet-engine-plan-kaveri-project-being-revived/

 

[sjmaverick]

I just Hope this time also it is not just a change of Kabini core and get it up and running with certification in 18 months .... The Open material available does not specify this aspect clearly. Assumption are drawn from the statement that Kaveri was 75% finished and 25% work is where safran will help any idea where this help is required in term of technology is it just compressor blisks (integrally-bladed disks), single-crystal high-pressure turbine blades, powder-metallurgy disks, ceramic coatings, composite materials or is it Kabini Core that can be further improved ...

Is there a way where by Core of these engines can be compared / Benchmarked and not the full engine ? Just a layman's question

 

[sjmaverick]

Dia for F125 and Kaveri is same ...cant there be some quick workaround to shorten the length as the extra weight on kaveri come with additional power to compensate ..or is it going to be overkill ?

Kaveri:

• Length: 137.4 in (3490 mm)
• Diameter: 35.8 in (910 mm)
• Dry weight: 2,724 lb (1,235 kg) [Goal: 2,100-2450 lb (950-1100 kg)]
• • Military thrust (throttled): 11,687 lbf (52.0 kN)

F 125

• Length: 102.1 in (259 cm)
• Diameter: 36 in (91.4 cm)
• Dry weight: 1050 lb (521.6 kg)
• • Maximum thrust: 6280 lbf (28 kN)

• Jaguars would remain in service for the next 15 to 20 years.
• The 60-odd Jaguars with DARIN-II will continue to operate that system, while the other 60 will now be upgraded to DARIN-III.
• The 120 twin-engine Jaguars will also get new engines supplied by US major, Honeywell, for an estimated $3 billion.

The Indian Air Force took a vital step last week towards boosting its dwindling fleet of combat aircraft. As MiG21s and MiG27s retire, forcing the IAF to close down squadrons, a new avionics upgrade for the nuclearcapable Jaguar strike fighter will let it fly for another two decades. This is Hindustan Aeronautics Limited's new DARINIII 'navigation attack' system that allows the Jaguar to do pinpoint bombing. The DARINIII allows a pilot to feed in the coordinates of targets deep inside enemy territory. Once airborne, the computer's inertial navigation system directs the pilot to the target, telling him when to releases his weapons precisely. IAF's deputy chief, Air Marshal R K S Bhadauria, flew a Jaguar equipped with DARINIII in HAL Bengaluru, after which he accorded 'initial operational clearance' of the upgraded system. The IAF's six Jaguar squadrons (20 fighters in each) are deployed in Ambala, Jamnagar and Gorakhpur. Termed 'deep penetration strike aircraft,' the Jaguar destroys surface targets like terrorist camps, air bases and warships with its onboard weaponry, including 'new generation laser guided bombs'; and the lethal Textron CBU105 'sensor fuzed weapons', bought in 2010 from America. This effective tankbuster breaks up into many 'smart bomblets' that guide themselves to the tanks and penetrate their turrets from above.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

There it is, Improved version ..

it Kabini Core that can be further improved ...

 

[Alok Arya]

I have one doubt about Kaveri snecma jv to bring Kaveri project to life . This is because of core temperature aim for Kaveri is 1880 c . But core temperature of snecma m88 eco is 1570 c . Is French have capacity to full fill 1880 c target of Kaveri . As of now Kaveri has core temperature of 1450 c with directionally solidified blade with 80 kn wet thrust and based on single crystal blade technology from Russia and Indian nickel based superalloys single crystal blade of 1550 c durability is ready . So it is clear that metallurgy of m 88 eco level can not bring Kaveri into life . However blisk etc can bring weight reduction to target level of 1000 kg (1100-900 kg) . Cutting edge metallurgy, special plasma coating is needed . However specification of jv engine should be fixed as of now and ground testing should have been started if engine to be flight worthy by 2018 . If this jv engine able to come with thrust of 62/95-100 kn than a total order of 83 for 1 A , 83 for mark 2 , and 46 for N mark 2 total 212 confirmed .

 

[airtel]

I have one doubt about Kaveri snecma jv to bring Kaveri project to life . This is because of core temperature aim for Kaveri is 1880 c . But core temperature of snecma m88 eco is 1570 c . Is French have capacity to full fill 1880 c target of Kaveri . As of now Kaveri has core temperature of 1450 c with directionally solidified blade with 80 kn wet thrust and based on single crystal blade technology from Russia and Indian nickel based superalloys single crystal blade of 1550 c durability is ready . So it is clear that metallurgy of m 88 eco level can not bring Kaveri into life . However blisk etc can bring weight reduction to target level of 1000 kg (1100-900 kg) . Cutting edge metallurgy, special plasma coating is needed . However specification of jv engine should be fixed as of now and ground testing should have been started if engine to be flight worthy by 2018 . If this jv engine able to come with thrust of 62/95-100 kn than a total order of 83 for 1 A , 83 for mark 2 , and 46 for N mark 2 total 212 confirmed .

these are the latest reports of kaveri (without french Help) >> after getting french technology it's performance will further improve .

 

[Alok Arya]

these are the latest reports of kaveri (without french Help) >> after getting french technology it's performance will further improve .

View attachment 12549

That is what I am saying . Inlet temperature of 1700 k = 1427 c roughly 1450 c was achieved . Later it is reported that scb of 1550 c ( 100 c more than existing directionally solidified blade imported from U.K. ) is ready . But target is of > 1800 c . Is it possible for franch to have such a cutting edge metallurgy and are they ready to share it . Perhaps they have it , because later report of 90 kn snecma engine with thrust to weight ratio of 10:1 comes in media . If such cutting edge metallurgy goes in Kaveri a engine with 100 to 105 kn is possible .

 

[airtel]

That is what I am saying . Inlet temperature of 1700 k = 1427 c roughly 1450 c was achieved . Later it is reported that scb of 1550 c ( 100 c more than existing directionally solidified blade imported from U.K. ) is ready . But target is of > 1800 c . Is it possible for franch to have such a cutting edge metallurgy and are they ready to share it . Perhaps they have it , because later report of 90 kn snecma engine with thrust to weight ratio of 10:1 comes in media . If such cutting edge metallurgy goes in Kaveri a engine with 100 to 105 kn is possible .

yes they have this kind of technology ........


and according to @BON PLAN , M88 can generate 115 Kn wet thrust ...............and kaveri would be able to generate 125kn wet thrust because it is a variable cycle Engine

 

[airtel]

Ithought kaveri was abandoned what happened after that

France will work on Kaveri Engine & improve its performance ...... .
according to Rafal deal .

 

[Filtercoffee]

Clearly we have perfected the core a while ago, this is done to keep French engineers with us.

 

[BON PLAN]

and according to @BON PLAN , M88 can generate 115 Kn wet thrust ...............and kaveri would be able to generate 125kn wet thrust because it is a variable cycle Engine

Not really. The M88 was conceived as a family. First family : around 75kn of thrust. Second family : around 95kn. Third : 115kn.
Each family has it's own core (same technologies, different diameter).

 

[Chinmoy]

Not really. The M88 was conceived as a family. First family : around 75kn of thrust. Second family : around 95kn. Third : 115kn.
Each family has it's own core (same technologies, different diameter).

I believe at first it was second generation of family which was opted for LCA, but now it has been shifted to third generation with AMCA in mind for K10

 

[lcafanboy]

@lcafanboy I do not understand the term TOT being used. Transfer of technology is totally different from providing consultancy on a certain product and is definitely not TOT.
I believe they are working on Kaveri to find the loop holes using the expertise and experience they have in engines.

Even if they get into a JV and plan a new engine then also it will be very little TOT which will be specifically related to the metallurgical properties of the core of the Engine as DRDO has been struggling in that field also.

They are not gonna share all the details about the engine but provide consultancy.

Snecma has to and will have to provide deep TOT for turbofan fighter engines. This is the only reason why Rafale deal was on hold and now given go ahead. Deep technology transfer means if India wants to make a new turbofan engine with higher thrust India will be able to do so. Also not only Kaveri but HAL HTFE-25 turbofan is also being uprated to 35KN with same weight using the technology provided by Snecma. In future also the technology can be used for newer engines.

 

[Pulkit]

Snecma has to and will have to provide deep TOT for turbofan fighter engines. This is the only reason why Rafale deal was on hold and now given go ahead. Deep technology transfer means if India wants to make a new turbofan engine with higher thrust India will be able to do so. Also not only Kaveri but HAL HTFE-25 turbofan is also being uprated to 35KN with same weight using the technology provided by Snecma. In future also the technology can be used for newer engines.

I hope we get that tech but i doubt they will be sharing it..........

 

[lcafanboy]

I hope we get that tech but i doubt they will be sharing it..........

Yes they are ready to share as the whole contract between France and India is huge, it exceeds more than 40billion us dollars over 20 years period plus it also supports french jobs the windfall is too huge for france. What they are sharing is today's technology which somehow India will reach by 2025 with concerted efforts what they are doing is they offering it in 2019 a saving of 6 yrs for India but France will gain huge profits.

The MII part of Rafale will see more that 250 Rafale fighters plus Baracuda class nuclear submarine again technology transfer, NEURON, AURA, Airbus A330 tankers, so it is huge. The partnership between India and France will be taken to whole new level where both will be strategic partners.

 

[BON PLAN]

Snecma has to and will have to provide deep TOT for turbofan fighter engines. This is the only reason why Rafale deal was on hold and now given go ahead. Deep technology transfer means if India wants to make a new turbofan engine with higher thrust India will be able to do so. Also not only Kaveri but HAL HTFE-25 turbofan is also being uprated to 35KN with same weight using the technology provided by Snecma. In future also the technology can be used for newer engines.

ToT the only reason ? A 8 billiions reason? you're not serious.

 

[lcafanboy]

ToT the only reason ? A 8 billiions reason? you're not serious.

8 billion dollars is no big deal, it contains 36 Rafale in fly away condition plus weapons worth a billion dollars plus India specific modifications which includes high power engines, helmet mount display, GaN RBE2 Radar these fighters will come with F3R specs saving India MLU, which would have been necessary if we had gone for previous MMRCA deal. Add to that 50% offsets which provide India with jet engine technology plus a Rafale assembly line at Nagpur.

Besides these India also considering buying Baracuda nuclear sub for which technology transfer is being sought, technology partnership also is being sought for AURA and AMCA, So 8 billion is pea nuts.

 

[swap]

Yes they are ready to share as the whole contract between France and India is huge, it exceeds more than 40billion us dollars over 20 years period plus it also supports french jobs the windfall is too huge for france. What they are sharing is today's technology which somehow India will reach by 2025 with concerted efforts what they are doing is they offering it in 2019 a saving of 6 yrs for India but France will gain huge profits.

The MII part of Rafale will see more that 250 Rafale fighters plus Baracuda class nuclear submarine again technology transfer, NEURON, AURA, Airbus A330 tankers, so it is huge. The partnership between India and France will be taken to whole new level where both will be strategic partners.

Kite flying, at its highest...............

 

[BON PLAN]

8 billion dollars is no big deal, it contains 36 Rafale in fly away condition plus weapons worth a billion dollars plus India specific modifications which includes high power engines, helmet mount display, GaN RBE2 Radar these fighters will come with F3R specs saving India MLU, which would have been necessary if we had gone for previous MMRCA deal. Add to that 50% offsets which provide India with jet engine technology plus a Rafale assembly line at Nagpur.

Besides these India also considering buying Baracuda nuclear sub for which technology transfer is being sought, technology partnership also is being sought for AURA and AMCA, So 8 billion is pea nuts.

You're not right.
under the present offset just for 36 planes, you will never have a assembly line. The assembly line is part of the MMI deal, not inked so far.