Kaveri Engine

nitesh

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Hmmm - so the Kaveri will power the AMCA - both of which are myths right now! Awesome!

I think DRDO will build another Engine called the Godavri to power the A.V.A.T.A.R by 2030 - just my predictions ... :D
I posted the one year old link yesterday, sorry forgot to put the comments. The Kaveri is getting validated now after the initial testing is done, this will validate the engine core and overall engine functions. Now with the Rafale is as good as home, it seems we are looking for a bigger relationship with France, mostly this version of kaveri will be used in Mk1 birds when they come fro MLU and potential use in trainers. The JV engine will be the one powering AMCA, and possibly Rafale and LCA MK2 too when they come for MLU.

PS: Rafale in initial days flown with a pair of GE engine, till the M 88 matured. LCA seems to be following the same path, slowly agreed, but we need to understand that lack the relevant experience, so going slow.
 

JAISWAL

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First phase Kaveri Engine trial encouraging

First phase Kaveri Engine trial encouraging
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First phase Kaveri Engine trial encouraging | idrw.org

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While the delay in the completion of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) was lamented by the armed forces, the developers of the Kaveri Engine stated that the tests of the same was encouraging. Interacting with media persons after the celebrations of the Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE), Scientific Advisor to the Defence Minister, V K Saraswat said that the first phase of the flight evaluations on board, the IL-76 aircraft was successful. He added that Phase II would start once the specific modification was done. Commenting on the delay of the protoypes of LCA, both navy and air force versions, he said, "It is a step beyond prototypes. So we should not look at few months of delay very seriously." He added the LCA Navy should fly in a month. He shared that the taxi trials were underway and said that they had to ensure the systems and equipment of the two versions were working.
 
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nitesh

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Kaveri turbofan programme seeks extension - SP's Aviation

February 17, 2012 : The Kaveri turbofan engine programme has asked the government for an extension and more funds to overcome a fresh set of technological hurdles that have cropped up in the latest phase of flight tests. According to top sources, the extension involves at least 120 hours of additional flight testing. Interestingly, while the Kaveri is currently being flight-tested on a specially kitted out Ilyushin-76 engine test bed aircraft at the Gromov institute in Russia, the Kaveri extension programme envisages flight testing on a modified Tejas airframe, or similar aircraft.
As things stand, the Kaveri has completed close to 60 hours of flight-testing at the Gromov institute, the highlight of which was the use of a fully indigenous FADEC. However, the flight testing phase has also accentuated the engine's fundamental problems that have kept it in development for so long. Adding to a littany of woes, compounded by overall insufficient performance parameters, are problems in the turbine and fan assemblies, possibly structural issues as well. The IAF and Navy don't want to fly with an engine that puts out anything less than 90kN with reheat at sea-level — the Kaveri falls well short of that figure, and is the principle reason why the IAF and Navy have both gone in for GE engines on all foreseeable deliveries of the Tejas Mk.1 and Mk.2.

DRDO sources confirm that Snecma will transfer several key technologies as part of the joint engine programme, which include single crystal blades, bladed disk and EBPVD (electron beam plasma vapour deposit coating), all critical areas that the Kaveri engine has failed to find solutions to within the country, though not for lack of trying. Programme managers believe single crystal blade technology will be a major solution to one of the Kaveri's biggest problems — deformation of blades during testing as a result of high ambient temperatures. This has proved to be a severe limiting factor, considering that structurally solidified blades have structural integrity that comes nowhere close to single crystal structures. According to sources, it is negotiations over the modalities for single crystal blade technology that has taken so long, though the end is finally in sight. Several DRDO labs and the MDNL have tried for years to create an indigenous SCT solution, but so far without success.
The tie up with Snecma will launch the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) into an all-new league, and will involve modern forging, welding and casting techniques for the first time. Unlike the Kaveri K9 programme, the K10 programme (the official designation for the proposed effort with Snecma) will be professionally monitored from the outset, with hard timelines and investments. The work share model has been hammered down, and scientists are confident that they have extracted a competitive contract from the French. Initial reservations about sharing certain technologies were ironed out following the slew of military contracts that went France's way, the last being the substantive Mirage 2000 H/TH upgrade programme.
A senior GTRE scientist says, "We have the will and the base technologies. We understand fully well what our shortcomings are, and are eager to deliver a full performance engine to the customer. Gone is the time when we can stay in the lab indefinitely saying we will come up with certain technologies by ourselves. The French will help us cut down on development time. And we will both deliver an engine that will power Indian aircraft. Everybody wins."
 

Armand2REP

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I guess India didn't get the SCB technology from the Russians.
 

Kunal Biswas

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Kaveri turbofan programme seeks extension

There have also been unforeseen delays in the joint engine effort by DRDO and Snecma for a robust 90kN turbofan engine, based on the M88 ECO core and meeting the minimum performance requirements of the IAF and Navy. Negotiations on technology sharing and intellectual property have taken the better part of the two years, though a top official confirmed that a contract between DRDO and Snecma is likely to be signed within the year. The joint effort, in effect, calls an end to the Kaveri K9 programme as it stands. What it does is propose to quickly build a 90kN thrust turbofan and offer it off the block to the IAF and Navy for their Tejas Mk.1s. The Kaveri-Snecma engine, in twin configuration, could also power India's advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA), though that is still well into the future.

DRDO sources confirm that Snecma will transfer several key technologies as part of the joint engine programme, which include single crystal blades, bladed disk and EBPVD (electron beam plasma vapour deposit coating), all critical areas that the Kaveri engine has failed to find solutions to within the country, though not for lack of trying.


Programme managers believe single crystal blade technology will be a major solution to one of the Kaveri's biggest problems — deformation of blades during testing as a result of high ambient temperatures. This has proved to be a severe limiting factor, considering that structurally solidified blades have structural integrity that comes nowhere close to single crystal structures. According to sources, it is negotiations over the modalities for single crystal blade technology that has taken so long, though the end is finally in sight. Several DRDO labs and the MDNL have tried for years to create an indigenous SCT solution, but so far without success.

The tie up with Snecma will launch the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) into an all-new league, and will involve modern forging, welding and casting techniques for the first time. Unlike the Kaveri K9 programme, the K10 programme (the official designation for the proposed effort with Snecma) will be professionally monitored from the outset, with hard timelines and investments. The work share model has been hammered down, and scientists are confident that they have extracted a competitive contract from the French. Initial reservations about sharing certain technologies were ironed out following the slew of military contracts that went France's way, the last being the substantive Mirage 2000 H/TH upgrade programme.

Almost the entire work force that has been dedicated so far to the Kaveri [9] will be diverted to the K10 effort with Snecma. Scientists foresee challenges in absorbing the technology, but are confident that they will achieve goals once the contract is signed and the effort flagged off. A senior GTRE scientist says, "We have the will and the base technologies. We understand fully well what our shortcomings are, and are eager to deliver a full performance engine to the customer. Gone is the time when we can stay in the lab indefinitely saying we will come up with certain technologies by ourselves. The French will help us cut down on development time. And we will both deliver an engine that will power Indian aircraft. Everybody wins."
Full article:
http://www.spsaviation.net/exclusive...eeks-extension
 

p2prada

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^^^
At least their morale seems to be high with the recent successes with Kaveri.
 

ace009

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I have been reading all the comments , about Kaveri engine , starting from design faults, to low thrust, burnouts, problems with the core of the engine (kabini), the thing is this is the first jet engine India has ever designed in-house and every country that's designed jets engines had the exact same problems they got better by refining their design through building and using the same engine and improving in increments over time.
What i do not get is why pay the French or American engine makers at all if its the different core they are looking for why not go the Chinese way just reverse engineer it . Say what anyone will of the Chinese they care about themselves and forging ahead first , we should follow the Chinese example. Let the Europeans , Russians and Americans bitch and moan , you don't see them giving a rats ass when its comes to hitting us with technology denial regimes when it looks like we are close to achieving something indigenous.
The Americans got the jet engine technology through the Nazi engineers and Nazi German designs.
The British got the jet design from American and Nazi designs .
The Russians got their first jet engine by reverse engineering Rolls Royce engines the imported from the British.
So can someone explain to me why India should take up the mantle of sainthood to the detriment of the country and its people.
So, you do understand that India will then be as isolated as the Chinese defense industry is from western technology? No more Rafales, Scorpenes, C130Js etc etc.
 

bhramos

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Salvation Kaveri program is in the hands of Snecma.



The development program of the Indian Kaveri turbofan asked the government to an extent of testing and more resources to overcome a new set of technological hurdles that have arisen in the last phase of flight tests. According to high government sources, extension involves the addition of at least 120 hours of flight tests. Interestingly, while the Kaveri tested in flight is mounted on an Ilyushin-76 adapted by Gromov Institute in Russia, the extension of the flight test program of the Kaveri provides the use of a modified aircraft Tejas, or a similar aircraft. An official familiar with the proposed extension, said one of the early prototypes of Tejas, which does not fly for years could be modified to fly with the Kaveri engine.

In the current context, the Kaveri completed about 60 hours of flight tests by the Institute Gromov, the highlight is the use of a FADEC fully developed in India. However,the phase of flight tests also have accentuated some fundamental problems of the engine that is delaying the development program. It should be added to the list of known problems, compounded by inadequate performance parameters, the existence of problems in assembling the turbine and the fan, and possibly also structural issues. The IAF and the Navy did not want to fly with an engine that has less than 90kN of thrust with afterburner at the level of March - the Kaveri falls far short of this value, and this is the main reason why the IAF and the Navy have migrated to GE engines both Tejas Mk.1 as in Mk.2.

The IAF, predictably, not happy with the progress. A senior official associated with the program of the Kaveri said: "The problem is no longer about the delays and delivery, but on performance. The Kaveri engine in its current form can not equip fighter jets with modern performance requirements. It may perhaps be modified for other uses, but for the fighters Kaveri as it is not for the fighters. "

There have also been unforeseen delays in the joint effort of DRDO and Snecma to develop a robust turbofan engine in the range of 90kN of thrust, based on the French motor nucleus of M88 ECO version that meets the minimum performance requirements of the IAF and the Navy. Although negotiations on technology transfer and intellectual property have taken the best part of the last two years, a senior official confirmed that a contract between Snecma and DRDO should be signed within a year. The joint effort decretaria the end of the Kaveri K9 program as is. What is proposed now is the rapid construction of a turbofan 90kN of thrust and offer it to the IAF and the Navy for its Tejas Mk.1. The Kaveri-Snecma engine, the dual configuration, could also be used in future advanced fighter aircraft (AMCA), although this is still well in the future.

DRDO sources confirm that Snecma will transfer several key technologies, among them some criticism that led the Kaveri not achieve the expected performance. Managing the program believe technology blade single crystal is an important solution for a major problem of Kaveri - deformation of the blades during the test as a result of high ambient temperatures. This proved to be a serious limiting factor, considering that the blades structurally solidified structural integrity has not even come close to single crystal structures. According to some sources, is exactly the negotiations on the modalities of technology single crystal blade so that has delayed the negotiations, although the end is finally in sight. Several laboratories of the DRDO and MDNL tried for years to create a local solution, but so far without success.

Snecma will bring the facilities of the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) in another much higher level, which will feature modern techniques of welding and casting the first time. Unlike the program Kaveri K9, K10 program (the official designation for the proposed joint effort with Snecma) will be much more professional and will be monitored from the beginning, with strict deadlines and investments. The model of division of labor has been assembled and Indian scientists are confident that drew a competitive contract. Initial reservations about sharing certain technologies were resolved after the huge amount of military contracts formalized with France, which include the Mirage upgrade program 2000H/TH.

Almost all of the manpower employed in the development of the Kaveri will be diverted to the development effort of the K10 with Snecma. Scientists predict challenges to absorb the technology, but are confident they will achieve the targets once the contract is signed. A senior scientist at the GTRE said: "We have the will and the underlying technologies. We understand very well what are our shortcomings, and we look forward to delivering a complete engine performance to the client. Gone are the days when we could stay indefinitely in the laboratory saying that one day technology would come through our hands. The French will help us reduce development time. And both deliver an engine that will move the aircraft in India. Everybody wins. "



Leia mais (Read More): Salvação do programa Kaveri está nas mãos da Snecma | Poder Aéreo - Informação e Discussão sobre Aviação Militar e Civil

Salvação do programa Kaveri está nas mãos da Snecma | Poder Aéreo - Informação e Discussão sobre Aviação Militar e Civil
 

Armand2REP

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Kunal already posted that in the Kaveri/LCA thread, in its original English.
 

shashi

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When strategy was technical
R. Swaminathan
24 February 2012

France has always been a difficult ally of the US. Like an extremely talented problem child, France has defied the US time and again. And this cock-a-snook attitude has been most visible in the field of defence and military hardware sales. Some call the French approach business-like, driven by self-interest and realpolitik. Critics, however, describe the French approach as one with a flexible moral compass.

During the 10-year Iran-Iraq war, the French played both sides admirably. While the Iraqis were given French warplanes, Milan anti-tank missiles and Exocet AM 39 anti-ship missiles, the Iranians were subtly directed to the Chinese who supplied them with sea-skimming Silkworm anti-ship missiles to keep the Straits of Hormuz boiling. The interesting point was that the French had secretly supplied the Chinese with the inertial guidance system and the solid fuel technology to the Chinese. But this was still minor indiscretion. The French looked the other way when Iraq acquired highly restricted Maraging Steel, used in uranium enrichment centrifuges, through a complex series of transactions, middlemen, and front companies.

Antony and his team seemed to know this history and felt that the French were more likely to part with critical technologies needed to enhance India's defence aviation sector than any other country. They had their own precedents too. When sanctions were imposed on India, especially on dual use technologies, after Pokhran II the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) project was the worst hit. The US, which was supposed to help Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) with crucial cockpit systems, avionics, Fly by Wire (FBW) flight control systems and engines (GE-404), backed out and refused to part with off-the-shelf units as well as the technology. The French decided to break ranks with the US and helped out.

People familiar with the LCA project contend that it's no accident that India preferred to go with a relatively complex tailless compound delta-wing design, a design philosophy followed by the European aircraft manufacturers. Rafale, Typhoon and Gripen are all delta-wing aircraft. Antony and his team were aware of the commonality of design philosophy between Rafale and Tejas. The commonality was strategic as it had the potential to comprehensively transform India's defence aviation sector.

The French support in helping India develop indigenous technological capabilities is by no means small. Three examples will suffice. First, Indian company Samtel, which produces state-of-the-art Heads up Display (HUD) display systems for Tejas and Sukhoi-30 MKI, is a joint venture with Thales, which has a 26% stake in it. Thales is one of a handful of companies in the world with proprietary avionics technology. Second, Dassault, which manufactures Rafale, was initially invited by ADA to provide consultancy services for developing the FBW system of Tejas. Third, when India's efforts to produce an indigenous engine (GTRE GTX-35VS Kaveri) for Tejas with 90 kilonewton (KN) thrust fell flat, it was the French Snecma that stepped in to help the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) finetune the Kabini core of the Kaveri engine. Snecma powers Rafale with its twin M-88-2 engines.

Insiders also revealed that Antony and his team were not convinced about the American intentions to transfer core technologies. Their suspicions had solid grounds. Of course the sanctions imposed on India was one obvious ground, but the way the US pressured Israel, one its closest allies, to abandon the Lavi fighter aircraft project was another. In 1980, the Israel government authorised the Israel Air Force (IAF) to present its requirements and specifications to Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) for the production of a 4th generation fighter aircraft. Called Lavi, it was jointly financed by Israel (60%) and the US (40%). The first prototype flew in 1986 and it became clear that the Lavi was far superior to the F-16, which constituted a substantial chunk of the IAF. The US started putting intense political pressure on Israel to cancel the project, eventually cutting off its part of the funding. Left with inadequate capital Israel abandoned the Lavi project. Rumour has it that Boeing and Lockheed Martin used its clout to put pressure on the US government

Nobody could have anticipated it, but the abandonment of the Lavi project led to the development of a direct threat to India. For the last three decades the Chinese have been on frenetic mission to modernise their armed forces by all means possible. Some military experts are convinced that the Chinese J-10 (manufactured by Chengdu Aircraft Corporation and internally designated as 'Vigorous Dragon') is a copy of the Lavi. The Chinese, of course, deny it. But the similarities between the two aircraft are uncanny. The Chinese do have a track record of using below the belt tactics to achieve their aims. In 2008, a furious Russia threatened to sue China when it copied the Sukhoi-27SK fighters and released them into the export market as Shenyang J-11. Despite the threat, the Chinese continue to produce J-11 and have thumbed their nose at the Russians by copying carrier-based Sukhoi-33 and releasing them as J-11BH.

The best example of Chinese underhand tactics was the way in which they acquired Admiral Kuznetsov-class aircraft carrier Varyag in April 1998 from Ukraine. Some military experts say that China's People Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) floated a front company called Chong Lot Travel Agency Ltd, based it in Hong Kong, and bought the aircraft carrier ostensibly to convert into a floating hotel and gambling parlour. For over ten years the ship disappeared from everyone's radar. Then it finally popped up as fully refurbished indigenous Chinese aircraft carrier for sea trials in August 2011. It will be China's first aircraft carrier.

Antony recognised the Chinese threat and got the previous National Security Adviser M K Narayanan on board. Together they met Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and decided to implement a comprehensive action plan to counter the increasing Chinese muscle. One part of the plan was a concerted upgradation of critical defence equipment. The upgrade programmes of MiG-29, MiG-21, Mirage-2000, Jaguar, T-72 and T-90 tanks are all part of this effort. But a more long-term part of the plan was to upgrade and build India's military industrial base, especially with regard to critical technologies.

Antony knew that India could never go the Chinese way of copying military hardware or reverse engineering technologies. He was clear that while India needed to be self-reliant on critical technologies, it could not do so on its own. It needed reliable partners. Using the blueprint of the successful Indo-Russian venture to produce the world's first supersonic cruise missile, Brahmos, Antony decided to scout for partners who would treat India as equals and at the same help the country develop competencies in critical technologies. This approach has resulted in a partnership with Sukhoi to develop a Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), tie-ups with Israeli companies to develop avionics and cockpit systems and German engineers to develop Arjun Mark II. The selection of Dassault Rafale is only a continuation of this well-thought out policy.
 

shashi

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I always thought that Snecma was going to put its ECO core in K10 but this news speaks otherwise.:shocked:
 

nitesh

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By seeing these news we have achieved a major feet, we are able to make an engine with 50-100 hour MTBF, with much lesser funding then our beloved neighbor. I don't think we can not use it in manned aircraft, only thing we might need to do is keep a huge inventory of spare engines which can be fitted in to the plane, something which Soviet did. A lesson, it is not easy to make an engine, but making it powerful and reliable enough is the key.

What we should push is that the existing Kaveri to be used in IJT/AJT to get in much experience needed with the blend of new technology that we are obtaining, this engine can be made reliable enough to be used in these trainer planes and the UAV/UCAV programs.

This is a crucial lesson for us, that we need to increase our OVERALL R&D, not only concentrating on few areas, but to cover more wider areas like materials and metallurgy.
 

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Kaveri Deal with French by June

India's GTRE and French Snecma by mid of this year are all likely to enter into a agreement for Developing Next Generation Kaveri (K-10) engine to power Next Generation fighter aircrafts which India will be developing in next few years.

As per sources who have told idrw.org, that as per current negotiations carried out with French Snecma will provide technology transfer of M-88 ECO core which will be integrated with Indian Developed Engines Technologies. Technology will come from Developed under current Kaveri engine.

As Soon as the GTRE enters into agreement with French, Scientists and resources currently working on Kaveri Engine (K-9) will be diverted to the new Kaveri K-10 Program. GTRE will be able to get to most of the technology transfers which it failed to develop under Kaveri program.

Engine will be developed in next 5 years period and will have its first test flight by 2017 period. Kaveri K-10 will be designed in a way that it will be able to integrated into Tejas Mk-2 in future, to replace American developed engines at time of Mid life Upgrade (MLU). But the engines primarily will be developed for Countries 5th generation fighter aircraft which should have it first flight around the same time period of 2017.

As per sources K-10 will be at par or exceed in the thrust requirements when compared to American GE F-414IN engines, but will developed incorporating 5th generation engines technologies. But for current Kaveri K-9 engines story is more or less is over and plans to integrate and retrofit it with Tejas MK-1 prototype just for testing purpose and to validate and complete the research might also see a setback, since there is no strong backing coming from different agencies and has been considered waste of time and not worth the risk, since it will not be able to power any manned aircraft. Will GTRE get the approvals to carry out its request? , that has to be seen.

Downsized variants of K-9 might be used to power UCAV in future, and other possible roles are explored at present, but nothing concrete has been planned on usage of it at present.

Kaveri Deal with French by June | idrw.org
 

Armand2REP

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By seeing these news we have achieved a major feet, we are able to make an engine with 50-100 hour MTBF, with much lesser funding then our beloved neighbor. I don't think we can not use it in manned aircraft, only thing we might need to do is keep a huge inventory of spare engines which can be fitted in to the plane, something which Soviet did. A lesson, it is not easy to make an engine, but making it powerful and reliable enough is the key.

What we should push is that the existing Kaveri to be used in IJT/AJT to get in much experience needed with the blend of new technology that we are obtaining, this engine can be made reliable enough to be used in these trainer planes and the UAV/UCAV programs.

This is a crucial lesson for us, that we need to increase our OVERALL R&D, not only concentrating on few areas, but to cover more wider areas like materials and metallurgy.
What is the major feat.. you mean defeat? Kaveri isn't safe enough to even test on LCA much less power it. Now the project is canned and India turns to France for engine technology. We will gladly let GoI pay for M-883 development... not a problem.
 

nitesh

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What is the major feat.. you mean defeat? Kaveri isn't safe enough to even test on LCA much less power it. Now the project is canned and India turns to France for engine technology. We will gladly let GoI pay for M-883 development... not a problem.
HE he he, you have to shoot your mouth any way without even thinking. Kaveri as an engine has proved itself. It can be used in other applications. Some how your posts are becoming more juvenile with less substance.
 

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