Kaveri Engine

[India Super Power]

Apparently, all of the technical problems plaguing Kaveri have been solved- but there is still in-flight testing and certification pending. As to why we did not use it in Tejas:

1. Kaveri has spent a lot of time on ground testing- very less testing in the air because of absence of flying test bed in India- because of a paucity of funds for such an important project!
2. Can't use an unproven engine on a single-engined fighter where the only course of action is pilot bailing out and loss of aircraft and engine for any major problems (and there will be many) discovered in testing. That's a costly way to iron out problems!
3. To prove the engine we need to send it for costly flying tests to Russia & elsewhere. Which we have been doing, here is a list of foreign consultancy we sought up to 16 May 2006:

TABLE​

Sl. No​	Name & Address of Foreign Company​	Contract Number and Date​	Nature of technical services​
(1)​	(2)​	(3)​	(4)​
1​	M/s. Snecma Moteurs, 2, boulevard du General Martial Valin 75724-Paris Cedex 15 -France​	KAV/FFEC/1081/GTRE dated 28.09.2001​	Technical Audit of Design Works relating to The Kaveri Engine Programme​
2​	Federal State Unitary Enterprise "Russian Technologies", 1, 1-ja Tveskaja-Yamskaja str., Moscow, 125818,​	KAV/FFEC/1020/GTRE dated 01.03.2000​	Exploratory Altitude Testing of Kaveri Engine​
3​	Federal State Unitary Enterprise, 'Rosoboronexport", 27/3, Stromynka Street, Moscow, Russia, 107076​	Amendment No. 335634211707 to KAV/FFEC/1020/GTRE dated 01-03-2000​	Exploratory Altitude Testing of Kaveri Engine​
4​	Federal State Unitary Enterprise, "Rosoboronexport", 27/3, Stromynka Street, Moscow, Russia, 107076​	P/135634011927-KAV/FFEC/1045/GTRE dated 22.03.2002​	Fan Casing Containment Test for Kaveri Engine​
5​	Federal State Unitary Enterprise, 'Rosoboronexport", 27/3, Stromynka Street, Moscow, Russia 107076​	P/135634011930-KAV/FFEC/1042/GTRE dated 22.03.2002​	Testing for Main Combustor at Sea level and Altitude conditions​
6​	Scientific Centre, Russian Federation, M/s Gromov Flight Research Institute Zhukovski, Moscow Region.​	KAV/FFEC/799/GTRE dated 22.03.2002​	Various Technical services for Kaveri Engine​
7.​	M/s. Kolb+Baumann Prazisions-Messeuge Daimlerstra Be 24 D63741, Aschaffenburg, Germany​	GTRE/MMG/FEKV/3026/ 02/FPO/03 dated 14.07.2003​	Consultancy services for CMM using 'KOBA STEP GAUGE" with GUK-S Software.​
8.​	M/s. ACRI, 260, Route Du Pin Montard BP 234-06904 Sophia Antipolis, France​	KAV/FFEC/1065/GTRE dated 31.10.2001​	Development of Software using 3D flow field analysis for the fabrication of Combustor for Kaveri Engine.​
9.​	Test Devices INC., 6, Loring Street, Hudson MA 01749, USA​	GTRE/MMG/FEKV/3017/ 02/FPC/A/03 dated 30.09.2003​	Over speed & Burst margin test on K6HPC Rotor assembly​
10.​	Test Devices INC., 6, Loring Street, Hudson MA 01749, USA​	GTRE/MMG/FEKV/3018/ 02/FPC/A/03 dated 17.10.2003​	Over speed & burst margin test on K6 Fan Rotor assembly​
11.​	Test Devices INC., 6, Loring Street, Hudson MA 01749, USA​	GTRE/MMG/FEKV/3007/ 03/FPC/A/03 dated 20.03.2004​	Design, Analysis, Testing & Optimization of Damper for the LP Turbine Rotor Blade​
12.​	MTU Aero Engines, GmbH & Co. KG Represented by MTU Aero engines Verwaltungs GmbH Postfach 50 06 40, 80976 Muenchen Germany​	GTRE/MMG/FEKV/3009/ 03/FPC/A/04 dated 23.08.2004​	Over speed & Burst Margin Test on K6HP Turbine Rotor Assembly​
13.​	MTU Aero Engines, GmbH & Co. KG Represented by MTU Aero engines Verwaltungs GmbH Postfach 50 06 40, 80976 Muenchen Germany​	GTRE/MMG/FEKV/300 8/03/FPC/A/04 dated 23.08.2004​	Over speed & Burst Margin Test on K6 LP Turbine Rotor Assembly​
14.​	M/s. Samtech S.A. Parc Scoemtofoque Du Sart Tilman Rue Des Chasseurs Ardemmais 8, B-4031, Angleur (Belgium)​	GTRE/MMG/FEKV/301 9/02/FPC/03 dated 29.08.2003​	Dynamic Analysis under Blade off condition of Kaveri engine​
15.​	Applied Technology Consultants Ltd., Holland House, 30, Old street, Clevedon BS 21 6BY, UK​	KAV/FFEC/997/GTRE dated 31.08.1999​	Consultancy for Reheat System Design Review/Audit​
16.​	Applied Technology Consultants Ltd., Holland House, 30, Old street, Clevedon BS 21 6BY, UK​	KAV/FFEC/996/GTRE dated 31.08.1999​	Consultancy for HP Turbine Risk Analysis/Review​
17.​	Applied Technology Consultants Ltd., Holland House, 30, Old street, Clevedon BS 21 6BY, UK​	KAV/FFEC/998/GTRE dated 31.08.1999​	Consultancy for Weight Reduction Study​
18.​	Applied Technology Consultants Ltd., Brunel House, 5, Elton Road, Clevedon BS 21 7RA, UK​	KAV/FFEC/1011 /GTRE dated 28.10.1999​	Consultancy for Thermal and Hydraulic Modelling of Kaveri Lubrication System​
19.​	Applied Technology Consultants Ltd., Brunel House, 5, Elton Road, Clevedon BS 21 7RA, UK​	KAV/FFEC/1027A/GTRE dated 14.09.2000​	Consultancy for Kaveri Fan Aerodynamic and Mechanical Design Review/Audit and enhancement.​
20.​	Applied Technology Consultants Ltd., Brunel House, 5, Elton Road, Clevedon BS 21 7RA, UK​	KAV/FFEC/1028/GTRE dated 14.09.2000​	Consultancy for Critical Design Review of the Kaveri Engine Project​
21.​	Applied Technology Consultants Ltd., Brunel House, 5, Elton Road, Clevedon BS21 7RA, UK​	KAV/FFEC/1027/GTRE dated 14.09.2000​	Consultancy for Accelerated Simulated Mission Endurance Test (ASMET) Cycle and test schedule definition and development programme integration.​
22.​	Applied Technology Consultants Ltd., Brunel House, 5, Elton Road, Clevedon BS21 7RA, UK​	KAV/FFEC/1088/GTRE dated 12.06.2001​	Consultancy for Kaveri Integrated Test, Development and Procurement programmes​
23.​	Applied Technology Consultants Ltd., Brunel House, 5, Elton Road, Clevedon BS21 7RA, UK​	KAV/FFEC/1075/GTRE dated 05.07.2001​	Consultancy for Kaveri PFRT Fan Aerodynamic Design 3D Blade-to-Blade and Viscous Analysis (ATC 506 issue 01)​
24.​	Applied Technology Consultants Ltd., Brunel House, 5, Elton Road, Clevedon BS21 7RA, UK​	KAV/FFEC/1074/GTRE Dated 25.08.2001​	Consultancy for Kaveri K4 Build 06 HP Compressor Blade Stage 1 Failure Investigation and Follow-up (ATC 507 issue 01)​
25.​	Applied Technology Consultants Ltd., Brunel House, 5, Elton Road, Clevedon BS21 7RA, UK​	KAV/FFEC/1080/GTRE Dated 25.08.2001​	Consultancy for Review and Proposal for the Resolution of Vibration Problems in the Kaveri Engine​
26.​	Applied Technology Consultants Ltd., Brunel House, 5, Elton Road, Clevedon BS21 7RA UK​	KAV/FFEC/1089/GTRE Dated 12.06.2001​	Consultancy for Design Review and Audit of High Temperature High Pressure Heat Transfer Rig​
27.​	Applied Technology Consultants Ltd., Brunel House, 5, Elton Road, Clevedon BS21 7RA, UK​	KAV/FFEC/1080/GTRE Dated 22.01.2004​	​ Consultancy for Kaveri K5 & K8 Compressor Blade Stage I vibration & Rub Investigation Problems in the Kaveri Engine​

For the past few years, Safran has been working with GTRE to improve the engine.

https://www.incometaxindia.gov.in/Communications/Notification/920110000000001362.htm

But sir if we don't put it in tejas then how will it become flight worthy, we have to start some or other day
Otherwise we can put it in mig 29 with rd-33m and see it's efficiency
Till now everyone is saying problems of kaveri are solved but not being tested in tejas
If we think like that then how can we make engines
Nothing against but just query

 

[MonaLazy]

But sir if we don't put it in tejas then how will it become flight worthy, we have to start some or other day
Otherwise we can put it in mig 29 with rd-33m and see it's efficiency
Till now everyone is saying problems of kaveri are solved but not being tested in tejas
If we think like that then how can we make engines
Nothing against but just query

No sirring please- not qualified enough.

I like your enthusiasm! But flying is a risky & complex proposition probably second only to human space flight- humans are not naturally meant to fly so you are defying nature in that sense every time you take to air.

When you test things- you don't always test the happy path. You push the machine (& man inside) to the limits and things are expected to break. In Tejas if the lone Kaveri fails mid-flight what are your options as a pilot? Hence it will be tested on an old plane with >1 engines for its full envelope progressively and then integrated with Tejas. Old aircraft as used to keep costs down.

It's common sense! Further reading:

Flying Engine Testbeds: Everything You Need To Know

As aviation works towards reducing its carbon footprint, engine manufacturers are looking to make their products as efficient…

simpleflying.com

 

[India Super Power]

No sirring please- not qualified enough.

I like your enthusiasm! But flying is a risky & complex proposition probably second only to human space flight- humans are not naturally meant to fly so you are defying nature in that sense every time you take to air.

When you test things- you don't always test the happy path. You push the machine (& man inside) to the limits and things are expected to break. In Tejas if the lone Kaveri fails mid-flight what are your options as a pilot? Hence it will be tested on an old plane with >1 engines for its full envelope progressively and then integrated with Tejas. Old aircraft as used to keep costs down.

It's common sense! Further reading:

Flying Engine Testbeds: Everything You Need To Know

As aviation works towards reducing its carbon footprint, engine manufacturers are looking to make their products as efficient…

simpleflying.com

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We have tested it in Russia then why not integrated in tejas if all problems are sorted
Or the tests were not satisfactory
So in this pattern how can we integrate indigenous engine in our aircrafts in future

 

[_merlin_]

We have tested it in Russia then why not integrated in tejas if all problems are sorted
Or the tests were not satisfactory
So in this pattern how can we integrate indigenous engine in our aircrafts in future

Testing in Russia revealed some problems which were apparently fixed. But no further testing was done or is planned in Russia after the fixes. With a fixed Kaveri, in-flight testing in the Il-75 test bed in Russia is a must to get confidence to put the Kaveri in a twin-engined fighter for further testing. Once after complete confidence is gained in the Kaveri can it be put in Tejas for integration testing and fully qualifying it. No doubt it will be a very valuable exercise for generating data and getting confidence in integrating an indigenous engine in an indegenous fighter even if Kaveri will never power the Tejas in service.

Since even with excess weight and inadequate wet thrust a Kaveri can still very easily power a Tejas to take off clean and explore all aspects of its flight envelope in clean configuration, I don't buy any argument stating that integration of Kaveri with Tejas should not be done.

But my reading is that Kaveri has been abandoned and focus is now on dry-Kaveri which essentially would be the core Kabini engine modified with whatever advances have been made in India since the original Kabini core was made.

In my opinion, abandoning a Kaveri integration and qualification with Tejas (in clean configuration) is not a good step since we lack even basic first hand data on this type of integration and qualification. Spending some amount here would be good money spent to gain data and confidence.

Unless GoI thinks GTRE is completely incompetent.

 

[Javelin_Sam]

Kaveri's problems are currently in the process of being solved and a foreign engine OEM is now working as a consultant to see the work done and certify it worthy to be flight tested.(Don't expect transfer of any critical technology. They will say "Your work is good. Safe for flight test" or "You have to further improve"). After this the engine will be taken to actual flight tests in Russia sometime in 2022. Maybe it's currently undergoing flight tests? Who knows. Twitter OSINT handles can only speculate.
If the flight tests in Russia is successful, then it might go into a twin engine fighter like Mig-29 with one RD-33 as backup.(Pilot life is precious) After several years and thousands of hours, test flights will progress into Tejas mk1 or Mk2, although I possibly believe if TEDBF prototype is realised somewhere before 2030, Kaveri will go into that before single engine Tejas. TEDBF being dual engine, has less probability of both engines undergoing trouble at same time. Tejas is powered by GE F404. The epitome example of Turbofan engine reliability. This engine had a crucial role to play in the crash-free record and high availability of Tejas so far. To fill it's shoes in a single engine fighter is a steep ask. Time will tell

 

[_merlin_]

Engine flight tests in Russia in 2022 are for dry Kaveri not the full up one.

 

[Javelin_Sam]

Engine flight tests in Russia in 2022 are for dry Kaveri not the full up one.

Okay. Thanks for the update

 

[MonaLazy]

We have tested it in Russia then why not integrated in tejas if all problems are sorted
Or the tests were not satisfactory
So in this pattern how can we integrate indigenous engine in our aircrafts in future

Please go through the following link, it details the process of putting a civilian turbofan engine through its paces, the bar for a military turbojet is much higher since speeds and stresses are much higher

How Aircraft Engines Are Tested Before Production

Most of us don’t give aircraft engines much thought. Sometimes, when you’re in the sky, you see the…

simpleflying.com

The real test of a jet engine’s reliability is when it flies. Engines need to get certified as safe and fit for purpose. Part of that certification process is taking the engines into the air. For that, the engine manufacturers use modified aircraft known as testbeds.
With an awkwardly positioned engine, testbed aircraft might look odd, but they are integral to testing engines and no small investment on the engine manufacturer’s part. Rolls Royce spent US$70 million on buying and modifying that Qantas 747 last year.
When getting the A350 XWB ready for final certification, Airbus flew the plane tens of thousands of miles over hundreds of hours. These final flights test all aspects of the aircraft’s performance, not just the engines. But, you know, the engines are kind of important.

two requirements emerge from the above:
1. $70M test bed which is about ₹517.5 crores
To put that number in perspective we have spent ₹2035.56 crores in toto on Kaveri since 1989! Thanks to frugal engineering that got us 9 Full prototype engines and 4 core engines built, 3217 hours of engine testing conducted and Completed Altitude tests & Flying Test Bed (FTB) trials. Not sure when we will cough up money for our own FTB.

DEVELOPMENT OF KAVERI ENGINE

Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) sanctioned Kaveri Engine project in 1989. The following mil

pib.gov.in

2. hundreds of hours of testing in air.

After the maiden flight, it required 50-60 test flights to integrate it with a fighter plane, but only 11 trials and 20 hours of flying tests were conducted:

Kaveri engine flight testing successful

India`s indigenous aircraft engine, Kaveri, was successfully flight tested at Gromov Flight Research Institute in Moscow, the DRDO said on Thursday.

zeenews.india.com

Outlook India Magazine Online- Read News India, Latest News Analysis, World, Sports, Entertainment | Best Online Magazine India

Outlook covers the latest India news, analysis, business news and long-form stories on culture, money market and personal finance. Read India's best online magazine.

www.outlookindia.com

Kaveri needs some more time on FTB before it can be mated even as one engine on a dual engined fighter plane. Integration with Tejas is a loooong way away.

 

[Kalkioftoday]

Current headache for Kaveri.

 

[Vamsi]

Current headache for Kaveri.

View attachment 131662

can you post the link for this

 

[no smoking]

Apparently, all of the technical problems plaguing Kaveri have been solved- but there is still in-flight testing and certification pending. As to why we did not use it in Tejas:

1. Kaveri has spent a lot of time on ground testing- very less testing in the air because of absence of flying test bed in India- because of a paucity of funds for such an important project!

Ground test is only the first step of the series of testing procedures. It only proves that engine does work in the most ideal environment. Most of technical issues will be exposed when it was installed on the fighter jet.

Again, just look at Chinese example: their WS-10 went through ground test, high altitude testing bed, then J-11 flying test. Everything seems fine. When it finally replaced both engines of J-11, all kinds of issues came out. It took them 10 years to fix these problems.

 

[Kalkioftoday]

can you post the link for this

Go to the comments section of this link. I asked him these questions and scroll down you'll see his answers. http://trishul-trident.blogspot.com/2022/01/striving-for-credible-minimum-strategic.html?m=1

 

[THESIS THORON]

Current headache for Kaveri.

View attachment 131662

wasnt the screech issue solved ??

 

[Vamsi]

wasnt the screech issue solved ??

It is solved as of now, but the engine has to be flight tested to know whether we completely solved it or not

 

[MonaLazy]

Current headache for Kaveri.

View attachment 131662

Isn't that a generational shift in turbojet specs? To go from 83kN wet Kaveri to 98kN? Just like 84kN F404-IN20 to 98kN F414-INS6. They should have given it a new name or version like K11 Kaveri or Godavari or something & probably announced it publicly.

Why are we finding this information in the comments section of a blog? Isn't this worthy of finding space in national newspapers? Or at least GTREs annual reports? Or even its own website which has no mention of this effort at all? Quite frustrating.. doesn't lack of info mean nothing is going on?

Products | Defence Research and Development Organisation - DRDO, Ministry of Defence, Government of India

www.drdo.gov.in

KMGT, New fan etc these products have been reported by MSM as members here would be aware.

 

[MonaLazy]

Lots of inaccuracies (110kN dry thrust!), just putting it here FWIW.. As per them both 404 & 414 are underpowered, only F119 & F135 make the cut! Also want us to push our luck with America's adaptive cycle engines & a few other ideas..

India’s jet engine dilemma: A call for action
The day of AI-powered UCAV is not far away. India has to right now sort out propulsion issues so that it can concentrate on the electronics and the software aspect of jet fighter/ UCAV designing.

One of India’s enduring challenges in military and civil aviation has been the inability of Indian industry and research agencies to design and produce an indigenous jet engine. Indian civil aviation industry fully imports its aircraft, and the lack of an indigenous engine stymies any attempt by institutions like NAL and HAL from being able to bring out even a small jet-powered civilian plane. In military aviation, the same saga continues, with the much-hyped and then much-maligned indigenous Kaveri jet engine being separated from the Tejas fighter jet program and then left to die a slow death. Our indigenous program to build fighter jets is having to make to do with foreign engines, which themselves are only doled out to us rather miserly by the US.

The fact remains that the GE F404 Engine used by Tejas is insufficient to power the aircraft, reducing its payload and range. Similarly, the GE F414 engine planned for Tejas Mark-II is similarly underpowered to meet all the requirements of IAF in the medium-weight fighter class of 15–18-ton range to enable a 5-ton combat payload and a combat range of 600 km on internal fuel. Even the AMCA/TEDBF planned/fantasized about, are all slated to be powered by GE F414, which would limit the size and payload as well as range of the fighter jets by design. So, why is India forced to compromise its expensive and extremely important fighter jet program with underpowered engines? Why cannot India successfully build its own engines?

The answer to the above question lies in the fact that jet engine technology has been more closely guarded by nations and their corporations than even nuclear reactor know-how. Jet engines are famously complex machinery, containing at least 30,000 moving and static parts, requiring high-end metallurgy research as well as a very high degree of precision and skill in forging, casting and machining. Once designed and put together, jet engines require extensive testing in wind tunnels and subsequently on flying testbeds, having to clock hundreds and thousands of hours to understand the fatigue characteristics as well as degradation of each individual part, among a hundred other studies. India lacks an ecosystem that is competent to design and build such systems as yet and therefore understandably is way behind other countries who have manufactured their jet engines.

India’s fighter jet building program hinges on the success of the Tejas contract with HAL. The contracts for 40 Mark-1 and 83 Mark-1A jets are expected to deliver by 2027 a total of 123 Jets worth 6 fighter squadrons and 1 training squadron. These shall finally replace 6 of the 8 MiG-21 fighter squadrons, even if at least 3-4 years after the retirement of the last MiG-21 squadron. The Mark-2 LCA project is expected to use an F-414 IN engine from the GE stable and has already cleared the Comprehensive Design Review stage. Since no indigenous engine can be readied for powering the Mark-2 until 2035, The LCA Mark-2 project shall proceed with the F 414 In engine of GE.

The LCA Mark-2 is supposed to replace the Mirage 2000 (3 squadrons), the MiG-29s (5- squadrons) and the Jaguar strike aircraft (6 squadrons) and the 2 remaining MiG-21 Bis squadrons. So, it is logical that out of the 16 squadrons retiring by no later than 2035, the Indian defence ministry will be able to find the need to order at least 8-10 of LCA Mark-II are ordered (150-180 planes) and the rest is made up by the AMCA production line when it starts in 2030 (another 8 squadrons worth of planes is proposed presently).

This would bring the total strength of IAF to 39 fighter squadrons by the year 2040. The Mark-2 LCA is being planned for production by HAL from 2028 onwards and if they produce at least 1.5 squadrons worth of planes a year, it will take at least 2034 till the last LCA Mark-2 is produced. India is looking for a 110 KN class engine (dry thrust) for its AMCA mark-II by 2035 which is the earliest it plans to get an indigenous engine into its planes. However, such a long timeline casts a doubt on the objective since 110 KN engines are already deemed as underpowered for 5th generation planes, which are powered by at least 130 -140 KN (dry thrust) rated engines (F-22, F-35 and Su-57).

Therefore, our dream project of a desi engine will only underpower our AMCA fighter, preventing it from meeting the fullest requirements of the IAF when it enters service. Such an under-designing of capability at even the design stage is baffling and smacks of a lack of enough thought or belief towards engine indigenization. India has to make at least a 130 KN (dry thrust) engine, either indigenously or as a licensed assembly and design the AMCA or any other plane it deems fit, with this engine in mind, considering the high-power requirement of 5th generation fighters.

110 KN or 130 KN, how are we going to make an indigenous engine when we don’t even make a single kind of jet engine in our country?

India has to innovate here. We have to entrust this project to private Indian and foreign companies with 100% FDI automatically allowed in the design and production of a jet engine. India should set aside at least $ 500 million for the 130 KN engine project. All jet engine manufacturers or consortia should be allowed to bid, with a detailed design and test program submitted to win a design contract. India should award at least 2 design contracts of equal amount to the top 2 entities and a time frame of 24 months should be given with amounts released in a staggered manner based on the progress of the design and testing contract.

At every stage of design review and testing, IAF and ADA/GTRE officials should inspect and recommend changes if any. At the end of the 24-month period, India should carry out a complete cost analysis of the two projects, to evaluate the lowest bidder who shall be given 60% of the contract to build engines while the other bidder should be given 40 % of the contract. Any export of the engines could be allowed with the permission of the government. The SQR for the engines should be limited to power ratings (dry and wet), specific fuel consumption, length and radius dimensions each stage, temperature/ compression ratio limitations and minimum power take-off from the alternator, minimum service life, maximum mean time between overhaul/ breakdown and integrated life cycle cost.

By assisting companies in designing an engine, India can also allow companies to innovate without risk, enabling smaller players a chance to shine. Moreover, new ventures with Indian private companies can also take off, with smaller foreign partners, apart from the big three of Rolls Royce, Pratt and Whitney and General Electric. It shall also allow joint ventures like Turbo Union, smaller European firms and Japanese IHI etc. to innovate in a mutually beneficial manner in conjunction with an Indian firm.

If design contracts are awarded by end of 2022, we can obtain a successful test of one or two proto-type engines by 2026 and by 2028, production can begin. The reason for such a short timeline is that no company can build a greenfield engine of this rating unless working over 10-15 years. Therefore, the proposed engine would be an up-gradation or an up-rating of an existing engine thereby requiring lesser time. This shall allow India to start the production of AMCA/ TEDBF design with 130 KN engines right off the start.

Another modus is to get hold of an indigenous jet engine by entering into a joint venture with countries with similar programs. Japan is presently in the advanced stages of developing a compact Military Jet Engine that is already tested and is designed to output 180 KN in production variants. The IHI XF-9 design is very new and innovative and considering the good relations India enjoys with Japan, an offer to invest in research and production of components for the XF-9 can reduce costs for both and also help lay hands on an advanced engine pretty quickly for both countries.

India could in fact use this as a fallback for engine design just in case the indigenous jet engine proposal is delayed or fails. Either way, a new design that is tailormade for 6th generation warfighter requirements can help India quickly leapfrog the Chinese in Engine design. A jet engine of 180 KN (wet) at one of the highest fuel efficiencies currently available in jet engines can help evolve the AMCA into not just a nimble and expanded version of LCA but can allow for larger wings, longer fuselage, higher thrust to weight ratio and conversion into a Naval version with only a few modifications. India should therefore forget the attempts at trying to coax Rolls Royce and Safran into giving us underpowered engine models or footing the cost of their development and instead concentrate on the Japanese project, which is already in the prototype testing stage.

A third model is to again use diplomacy to gain access for India to use the GE F136 / XA100 models which are developed to the prototype stage. The F136 project was abandoned after Pentagon selected the F135 of Pratt and Whitney to be the sole propulsion for the F-35. Now with a new engine contract looming, GE has shifted onto a higher gear through its adaptive Engine technology which it has used to make the GE XA100 prototypes, which have recorded a maximum thrust of 200 KN already. Both the models can be pursued through diplomatic means and if controlled production is allowed in India by GE (who already partner India’s indigenous jet fighter program for propulsion) for either of the two engines, India can quickly beat the lead times and also offer GE crucial user operational data, which it can use for further research, either by itself or jointly with India.

While there shall be the need for development costs for either of the two models, India can share such costs with GE and jointly sell the engine in a new JV for the same on the lines of the ITU RB-199 Engine that powers the Tornado Jet. This is also a time-saving measure, wherein India can start production no later than 2026 for the selected jet engine. This method however requires a lot of diplomatic heavy lifting to convince the US into parting with a sensitive technology and India may have to accept curbs on sales / further development for now in order to gain access to either of the two Engines, which are sufficient to power our indigenous jet fighter development into the 2050s.

India has to make quick and judicious decisions regarding obtaining access to jet engine technology or at least the jet engine to safeguard its airpower indigenization plan. Lack of a jet engine can cause us to fail miserably and can ensure all plans of AMCA, TEDBF/ORCA etc remain on paper only. All the above three models have a cost and involve trade-offs. But all three models could ensure India has a workable military jet engine powerful enough and reliable enough to base our 5th and 6th generation fighter projects and also learn during the entire cycle of development. A spin-off of these projects could be the propulsion for our unmanned systems which all over the world are getting increasingly bigger and more complicated. The day of AI-powered UCAV is not far away. India has to right now sort out propulsion issues so that it can concentrate on the electronics and the software aspect of jet fighter/ UCAV designing.

India's jet engine dilemma: A call for action

One of India’s enduring challenges in military and civil aviation has been the inability of Indian industry to design and produce an indigenous jet engine

www.opindia.com

 

[Whitecollar]

Lots of inaccuracies (110kN dry thrust!), just putting it here FWIW.. As per them both 404 & 414 are underpowered, only F119 & F135 make the cut! Also want us to push our luck with America's adaptive cycle engines & a few other ideas..

India's jet engine dilemma: A call for action

One of India’s enduring challenges in military and civil aviation has been the inability of Indian industry to design and produce an indigenous jet engine

www.opindia.com

When you mix a lot of opium to limited hopium, this happens. And the way he speaks, it's as if US is waiting with a thali and Nariyal for India to order those F135s...
And 110kN dry thrust?! I mean we're currently in hope of some phoren aeroengine giant to handhold us just to finish our 80+kN wet thrust Kaveri, the 110kN engine's development has still not started...ye bhai ko sidhe 110kN dry thrust me chahie.

 

[Kalkioftoday]

Lots of inaccuracies (110kN dry thrust!), just putting it here FWIW.. As per them both 404 & 414 are underpowered, only F119 & F135 make the cut! Also want us to push our luck with America's adaptive cycle engines & a few other ideas..

India's jet engine dilemma: A call for action

One of India’s enduring challenges in military and civil aviation has been the inability of Indian industry to design and produce an indigenous jet engine

www.opindia.com

1 kilo Opium + 50 ton Hopium

 

[THESIS THORON]

Lots of inaccuracies (110kN dry thrust!), just putting it here FWIW.. As per them both 404 & 414 are underpowered, only F119 & F135 make the cut! Also want us to push our luck with America's adaptive cycle engines & a few other ideas..

India's jet engine dilemma: A call for action

One of India’s enduring challenges in military and civil aviation has been the inability of Indian industry to design and produce an indigenous jet engine

www.opindia.com

WTF is this .

dephyense exfart

 

[gutenmorgen]

Lots of inaccuracies (110kN dry thrust!), just putting it here FWIW.. As per them both 404 & 414 are underpowered, only F119 & F135 make the cut! Also want us to push our luck with America's adaptive cycle engines & a few other ideas..

India's jet engine dilemma: A call for action

One of India’s enduring challenges in military and civil aviation has been the inability of Indian industry to design and produce an indigenous jet engine

www.opindia.com

Not one of their regular writers. Seems to be a guest writer that writes for them from time to time. There is no way opindia would suggest partnering with USA for anything.