Kaveri Engine

[omaebakabaka]

rr want cash to be in engine development

That money is literally chump change for Uk while they are at it printing trillion pounds. I think if anything it's Indian govt requesting/leveraging some weight with UK at high level ofcourse keeping the commercial angle to help out.

Kaveri components are old and not every engine part deveolped afterwards are added in it , engine development don't go that ways , we have blades with cooling vents instead of opder Chunk of metal with higher temperature bearing capacity but not used in kaveri as that will require some redesigning (major problem ) , we can achieve m 88 , if we start a fresh design from current technology for a new kaveri we may exceed m 88

My take is that our innovation culture is still incremental and not scratch which understandably takes time. So as long as they get an engine to flight worthiness that is mostly Indian made in design and build and mostly indigenous component base then the rating of engine is not critical in the first iteration itself. The incremental enhancements is where our guys shine for sure until that transition happens and more gets spent on the R&D. We are building cryo engines which are kinda on the other end of the extreme but temperatures are not that shocking considering we build our rocket engines and nozzles and so on. Ofcourse jet engines are more complicated in theory and requires more robust components to get the sustained life.

On the otherhand if they get total tot then Kaveri gets thrown out as a product with the R&D findings still retained. One project that's lagging more than anything....

 

[Lonewolf]

That money is literally chump change for Uk while they are at it printing trillion pounds. I think if anything it's Indian govt requesting/leveraging some weight with UK at high level ofcourse keeping the commercial angle to help out.

My take is that our innovation culture is still incremental and not scratch which understandably takes time. So as long as they get an engine to flight worthiness that is mostly Indian made in design and build and mostly indigenous component base then the rating of engine is not critical in the first iteration itself. The incremental enhancements is where our guys shine for sure until that transition happens and more gets spent on the R&D. We are building cryo engines which are kinda on the other end of the extreme but temperatures are not that shocking considering we build our rocket engines and nozzles and so on. Ofcourse jet engines are more complicated in theory and requires more robust components to get the sustained life.

On the otherhand if they get total tot then Kaveri gets thrown out as a product with the R&D findings still retained. One project that's lagging more than anything....

What was that RR not cash strappen comment , really billions of dollar are chump change , who said we are good of incremental advancement , are all our radar just incremental advancement ,on which platform , all our missile are incremental , is tejas based on incremental design ????.


Yiuy are horribly wrong here my friend , we are offering 3-4 billion dollar to them which will be used in tempest program directly , so we have a leverage here , this time RR came forward ,we didn't went to them running

 

[omaebakabaka]

What was that RR not cash strappen comment , really billions of dollar are chump change , who said we are good of incremental advancement , are all our radar just incremental advancement ,on which platform , all our missile are incremental , is tejas based on incremental design ????.


Yiuy are horribly wrong here my friend , we are offering 3-4 billion dollar to them which will be used in tempest program directly , so we have a leverage here , this time RR came forward ,we didn't went to them running

Engine tech partnership requires more than money is what I was saying. It's got to be Indian govt leveraging its weight with UK or French to make it happen. Engines are still domain of only 3 to 5 countries at best.

We are not there yet to introduce to product new gen stuff that's worlds first....thats what I mean. Even bramhos is Onyx based....Tejas also is not new gen as far as world is concerned like f22 or 35. That's why I think we are still incremental as we need to stumble and fig out these things hard way to build up and get to that generation level first to market products.

 

[Lonewolf]

Engine tech partnership requires more than money is what I was saying. It's got to be Indian govt leveraging its weight with UK or French to make it happen. Engines are still domain of only 3 to 5 countries at best.

We are not there yet to introduce to product new gen stuff that's worlds first....thats what I mean. Even bramhos is Onyx based....Tejas also is not new gen as far as world is concerned like f22 or 35. That's why I think we are still incremental as we need to stumble and fig out these things hard way to build up and get to that generation level first to market products.

Brahmos was jv of india and russia although the design is oniks based , f 22 was not built in a first attempt ,those companies were well into jet development before that , kaveri was too ambitious project , we should have gone for smaller engine furst like japanese if going alone was the plan , what is astra missile based on, our bmd is independent of others , our new radar for bmd are.much advanced than Israeli counterpart , almost 3000km range .

Our uttam is fully indigenous effort , even seeker tech for missile is indigenous , thing is kaveri was never in mission mode .

Our hstdv is not a foreign design based .

It depends on how project was sought ,how good was funding , how good were testing facilities

 

[FalconSlayers]

Does it mean mmrca2 Rafale deal is about to be signed? And does it mean that LCA MK1A MWF TEDBF and AMCA will be powered by safran HAL jet engine..

I feel more MoU for more engines, to bring a whole range of domestic engines in India.

 

[SavageKing456]

My take on JV is that no country would want another country to replace them as potential engine supplier same goes with RR.
I am highly suspicious of brits and they might backstab us anytime.
That blood flowing in the veins of brits is the same which used to flow 100 years back

 

[omaebakabaka]

My take on JV is that no country would want another country to replace them as potential engine supplier same goes with RR.
I am highly suspicious of brits and they might backstab us anytime.
That blood flowing in the veins of brits is the same which used to flow 100 years back

I agree on the engine tot jv but kaveri experience should give our engineers an ability to see through sabotage or setup for failure hopefully....I personally would never set foot in UK till they apologize for their crimes but UK has/had good partnership with India.

 

[SavageKing456]

I agree on the engine tot jv but kaveri experience should give our engineers an ability to see through sabotage or setup for failure hopefully....I personally would never set foot in UK till they apologize for their crimes but UK has/had good partnership with India.

Hmm we started our R&D on kaveri when our knowledge of metallurgy,ceramics etc was very low and we lacked facilities.
If we start working now I am sure we can have a 110kn engine ready by 15 years
Now ready means the engine is already certified

 

[omaebakabaka]

Hmm we started our R&D on kaveri when our knowledge of metallurgy,ceramics etc was very low and we lacked facilities.
If we start working now I am sure we can have a 110kn engine ready by 15 years
Now ready means the engine is already certified

Unlikely, just looking at the ones that are in business. It is expensive, R&D heavy and takes years to perfect and get that robustness and reliability. Aircraft engines (jet) are probably the most complex engines out of all the engines possibly in my opinion. The established ones already have years of experience and still takes years of effort. Chinese started before us and still are crappy at engines. May be we would have fewer blocks if we started now vs back then but then experience will lag

 

[SavageKing456]

Unlikely, just looking at the ones that are in business. It is expensive, R&D heavy and takes years to perfect and get that robustness and reliability. Aircraft engines (jet) are probably the most complex engines out of all the engines possibly in my opinion. The established ones already have years of experience and still takes years of effort. Chinese started before us and still are crappy at engines. May be we would have fewer blocks if we started now vs back then but then experience will lag

Unlikely, just looking at the ones that are in business. It is expensive, R&D heavy and takes years to perfect and get that robustness and reliability. Aircraft engines (jet) are probably the most complex engines out of all the engines possibly in my opinion. The established ones already have years of experience and still takes years of effort. Chinese started before us and still are crappy at engines. May be we would have fewer blocks if we started now vs back then but then experience will lag

China never actually invested in R&D.
They tried reverse engineering but failed.
On other hand we developed kaveri though less powerful but still it made us gain significant experience

 

[omaebakabaka]

China never actually invested in R&D.
They tried reverse engineering but failed.

I will keep more restrained opinion against opponents as I do not know what they invested and what not. In either case they do not seem to have perfected the dna of aircraft engines comfortably yet. Arguably understandable....it requires multi disciplinary expertise that get built over time and not overnight and failures are golden in engine building over decades of experience. They are painful as they almost always involve human tragedies. For China or SU, the loss of humans was more tolerable due to their system of govt but not for those families.

 

[VikingGod]

I feel more MoU for more engines, to bring a whole range of domestic engines in India.

I think France yet to master high thrust engines . Their best is m88 which 75kn weight thrust & 50kn dry thrust which they have perfected .

Kaveri (1200kg) has higher thrust than M88 but it not perfected engine & lot of problems , more weight but it was designed for higher thrust from start so weight closer to GE414 (1110 kg) . DRDO should have tried lower thrust engines first . What Kalyani's Bharat forge doing now perfecting smaller engines .

 

[VikingGod]

Today we have all metallurgy , tech to make new good engine , but we stuck in old Kaveri, which has very old tech with old metallurgy


Sometimes feel like Out jet programme is sabotaged from inside , If we start today by involving private companies , we can make really good engine in GE414 category . But DRDO babus chasing foreigners .

 

[SavageKing456]

Today we have all metallurgy , tech to make new good engine , but we stuck in old Kaveri, which has very old tech with old metallurgy


Sometimes feel like Out jet programme is sabotaged from inside , If we start today by involving private companies , we can make really good engine in GE414 category . But DRDO babus chasing foreigners .

It's not DRDO who's chasing foreigners,but the govt. Is more empathized on JV since they are paranoid that GTRE would again be a "failure" in making an engine

 

[FalconSlayers]

I think France yet to master high thrust engines . Their best is m88 which 75kn weight thrust & 50kn dry thrust which they have perfected .

Kaveri (1200kg) has higher thrust than M88 but it not perfected engine & lot of problems , more weight but it was designed for higher thrust from start so weight closer to GE414 (1110 kg) . DRDO should have tried lower thrust engines first . What Kalyani's Bharat forge doing now perfecting smaller engines .

France can do it, the reason France doesn’t have high thrust engines is because Safran has a very small market, it mostly relies on the French Airforce and the Government for sales and exports of Rafale.

 

[FalconSlayers]

Today we have all metallurgy , tech to make new good engine , but we stuck in old Kaveri, which has very old tech with old metallurgy


Sometimes feel like Out jet programme is sabotaged from inside , If we start today by involving private companies , we can make really good engine in GE414 category . But DRDO babus chasing foreigners .

Rolls Royce will just be a consultant, we will be the ones who’ll make the engine and RR will provide consultation. We did the Kaveri project on our own and it had some issues when it used Afterburners rest the Kaveri was fine and will be used in our Ghatak UCAV project.

The new engine will be joint IPR, ya it will cost you a joint IPR which means UK will also have the IPR along with India of the new engine formed which is not a big deal, those guys already have a lot of engines.

 

[omaebakabaka]

France can do it, the reason France doesn’t have high thrust engines is because Safran has a very small market, it mostly relies on the French Airforce and the Government for sales and exports of Rafale.

This is the key, no one just builds engines for fun. They collaborated at EU level and am sure a country that can launch heavier loads into space, build some of the fastest trains can build engines with higher thrust.

India needs a partner that is experienced to shave time. This is not just about potential or what not, its about country minimizing time in getting into key areas while world is in transition phase

 

[no smoking]

Kaveri (1200kg) has higher thrust than M88 but it not perfected engine & lot of problems , more weight but it was designed for higher thrust from start so weight closer to GE414 (1110 kg) .

Kaveri (target - 81kn) only 6kn higher than M88's thrust when the weight is 1200kg vs M88 (900kg).

DRDO should have tried lower thrust engines first.

Selling to whom? IAF needs higher thrust engine.

What Kalyani's Bharat forge doing now perfecting smaller engines .

What engine are they producing?

 

[Lonewolf]

Kaveri (target - 81kn) only 6kn higher than M88's thrust when the weight is 1200kg vs M88 (900kg)

Kaveri was a first attempt, that too with high indigenization in mind , too risky a job.

Selling to whom? IAF needs higher thrust engine.

As a td , to learn know how of engine deveolpment.

What engine are they producing?

At present for cruise missiles category with further plans for light jet category , and in future for collab on a high thrust category

 

[no smoking]

Today we have all metallurgy , tech to make new good engine , but we stuck in old Kaveri, which has very old tech with old metallurgy


Sometimes feel like Out jet programme is sabotaged from inside , If we start today by involving private companies , we can make really good engine in GE414 category . But DRDO babus chasing foreigners .

Metallurgy is only a very small part of the techs required to build an engine.
Japan has far better metallurgy techs than Russia. Look at their jet engine development.