J20 Stealth Fighter

[average american]

A pilot axiom is "he who sees their enemy first wins the fight which leads to stealth and superior electronics as the critical component over maneuverability. At some point maneuverability reaches a limit defined by the g's the pilot can handle and the higher the speed, the less maneuvering that can be done anyway.

 

[huaxia rox]

1 how ever the us finally picked f-22 but not f-23......stealth is not the only thing you need....

2 if you focus merely on stealth you surely lose some other aspects......other wise why not make a smaller and faster B-2 as a fighter jet???very stealth............

3 different radars to detect stealth jets are getting marture.....in the next war you dont surely know what you are faced with with your stealth jets........

4 also depends on how close your major enenmies location is.......eg j-20 vs f-35 in taiwan war.........both sides got planes flying regularly close to each other since probably 1950s.....unless you dont send the stealth jets to fight otherwise when the planes from each side are in the sky some of them probably have found themselves very close to their enenmies and dogfight senario can never be excluded.........

5 back to the news report....... the specific new developemnt of j-20 is after all to make it more stealth.......

 

[huaxia rox]

the bottom line is if the jet is not that overwhemingly stealth....then find the reasons behind............because the techs are not advanced enough or if you go too further other aspects may need to be sacrifised.....prc needs to make sure the former factors can be largely reduced........the news report says that......

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

what is the manuverability performance of j20 compared to f22 or pak-fa?also can anyone post a progress report on the ws10/ws15 engine ?

 

[average american]

Manuverability is limited by speed and the number of Gs a pliot can handle, Manuverability is a turd the Chinese and Russia keeps polishing because they cant achieve stealth. Its the pliot who sees their enemy first who wins the fight which leads to stealth and superior electronics as the critical component over maneuverability.

Ever since World War II the pliot that seen the enemy first won the fight. Four out of five times the losing pliot never knew they were under attack unti they were destroyed.

 

[average american]

Manuverability is a turd that Russia keeps polishing because they dont have stealth in order to sell planes to India

 

[huaxia rox]

1 if j-20 wanted to achieve stealth only it wouldnt be designed that way probably excluding the engine exhaust part (which needs to be improved later on)........canard design is for better manuverbility.....if we didnt need to consider the manuverbility the whole design can be more simple.........so its actually more easy but not hard to go stealth if thats the only thing you need......like j-31.....i think j-31 really seemingly looks more stealth than j-20 or pak-fa or f-35.......and if the engine doesnt look that way if can be even more stealth than f-22 in theory.....

2 to reduce RCS we dont only depend on shaping the plane more stealth.....the size of the whole plane matters and how good the radar absorbent paint is also carries weight......then how good is the radar absorbent paint for j-20....i dont know.....and do you know that for sure??

3 better manuverbility can probably be one of the last several measures you can take to save your ass.....if f-117 had better manuverbility it might not have been shot down by some obsolete SAM......to design a stealth fighter jet you need to be care of the threats in the sky and also on the ground......

4 to firstly find the enemy is important for sure......but why only count on the radar in your plane and the stealth design to avoid being detected?? ground radar also can do some jobs and there is AEW&C.......more different ground radars in different locations working at the same time more chance a stealth jet can be found............and for country like prc i believe at least within 20 years our manned stealth figher jets wont go too far away from our territory unlike the us...........so at least chinese stealth jets cant just rely on stealth.....

5 electronics needed for sure.....to go all the way to make better electronics is a basic understanding shared by all the players.....

 

[huaxia rox]

what is the manuverability performance of j20 compared to f22 or pak-fa?also can anyone post a progress report on the ws10/ws15 engine ?

maybe not a direct answer but a worth reading assesment......


Chengdu J-XX [J-20] Stealth Fighter Prototype / A Preliminary Assessment

The stealth shaping is without doubt considerably better than that seen in the Russian T-50 PAK-FA prototypes and, even more so, than that seen in the intended production configuration of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

Any notion that an F-35 Joint Strike Fighter or F/A-18E/F Super Hornet will be capable of competing against this Chengdu design in air combat, let alone penetrate airspace defended by this fighter, would be simply absurd. The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter and F/A-18E/F Super Hornet are both aerodynamically and kinematically quite inferior to the as presented J-XX/J-20 design, and even the shape based VLO capability in the J-XX/J-20, as presented, will effectively neutralise any sensor advantage either type might possess against earlier Russian and Chinese fighter designs.

 

[p2prada]

Barrage jam everything in the X band, in every frequency. That's fool proof stealth.

F-35 won't be able to use its radar. J-20 won't be able to use its radar. Finally the fight will come down to using IRST and fighting within visual range.

Both J-20 and F-35 have small wings while J-20 has canards. It would be interesting to see which among the two will win.

 

[p2prada]

maybe not a direct answer but a worth reading assesment......


Chengdu J-XX [J-20] Stealth Fighter Prototype / A Preliminary Assessment

Kopp's stealth assessment is bogus. No need to use that as a reference.

 

[average american]

F22 and F35 radar is very hard to detect and quite likely the F22 or F35 you are fighting will be useing another F22 or F35s or AWACs radar.

Chima is simply copying Russia Technology and

In the real world Russia was already far behind the West when it came to computers, communications tech, radar and avionics. This gap widened after the fall of the Soviet Union when Russia's economy tanked into the gutter and R&D expenditure was almost zero.

Even today, Russia's R&D spending is FAR behind that of the US. Let's also not forget that Russia is not a major player in the computer, tech or communications industries. The PAK-FA is also being developed on a fraction of the budget of the F-35 and the F-22.

Just because the PAK-FA is newer doesn't mean that the Russians are likely to overcome a colossal deficit in R&D base, development budget and experience. Maybe it would be possible if Russian scientists and engineers were somehow vastly superior to their American counterparts but there is scant evidence of that. Indeed, Russia is struggling to combat "brain drain."

Even India spends a lot more on research and development then Russia. US 405 India 36, Russia 23

 

[average american]

Remember, Uncle Sam has been doing this stealth thing since the 70s. The Soviets built a couple of stealth prototypes here and there but that's it. So whereas the USA already had decades of experience to build upon, the Russians are essentially starting from scratch. We can presume that they've gained some info through espionage, but there's no substitute to gaining your own expertise. Also, the US is probably doing its own fair share of spying as well.

Let's also not forget that Russia hasn't even produced a major commercial airliner since the fall of the USSR. The Sukhoi Superjet, which recently crashed in Indonesia, will be the first. Even then, it was developed with a large amount of Western help. All of this makes a huge difference. The development of these aircraft doesn't occur in a bubble. Expertise gained through other projects and related fields all contributes knowledge and technology.

The Russian aeronautics industry has largely become stagnant. Its only major export customers are mostly third world countries. They have less experience in building aircraft, less money to work with and they have way more cost restrictions because they will make less revenue than their US counterparts. They also have to contend with the fact that top talent will be drawn to Western countries, where there are better opportunities.

 

[ice berg]

Remember, Uncle Sam has been doing this stealth thing since the 70s. The Soviets built a couple of stealth prototypes here and there but that's it. So whereas the USA already had decades of experience to build upon, the Russians are essentially starting from scratch. We can presume that they've gained some info through espionage, but there's no substitute to gaining your own expertise. Also, the US is probably doing its own fair share of spying as well.

Let's also not forget that Russia hasn't even produced a major commercial airliner since the fall of the USSR. The Sukhoi Superjet, which recently crashed in Indonesia, will be the first. Even then, it was developed with a large amount of Western help. All of this makes a huge difference. The development of these aircraft doesn't occur in a bubble. Expertise gained through other projects and related fields all contributes knowledge and technology.

The Russian aeronautics industry has largely become stagnant. Its only major export customers are mostly third world countries. They have less experience in building aircraft, less money to work with and they have way more cost restrictions because they will make less revenue than their US counterparts. They also have to contend with the fact that top talent will be drawn to Western countries, where there are better opportunities.

Like any other average joe, I assume you never heard of Petr Ufimtsev? This is a thread about J-20. If you want trolling about russian vs US tech, at least have the decency of doing it on a dedicated thread, like T-50 thread.
Is this too much to ask of you?

 

[average american]

Then have the decency not to take cheap shots at the F35 since all the J20 is just stolen Russian obsolete technology.

 

[huaxia rox]

Like any other average joe, I assume you never heard of Petr Ufimtsev? This is a thread about J-20. If you want trolling about russian vs US tech, at least have the decency of doing it on a dedicated thread, like T-50 thread.
Is this too much to ask of you?

i think the most funny thing is not about what vs what but when people are talking specific things parts techs details and new developments he just comes out with all the history 14 year old young boys probably have known............history cant prove any thing that is going on in the current world.........

 

[huaxia rox]

Barrage jam everything in the X band, in every frequency. That's fool proof stealth.

F-35 won't be able to use its radar. J-20 won't be able to use its radar. Finally the fight will come down to using IRST and fighting within visual range.

Both J-20 and F-35 have small wings while J-20 has canards. It would be interesting to see which among the two will win.

1 then when would those expensive and difficultly developed and advanced radars on those stealth fight jets say f-22 be used???? or just cant be used in the senario of j20 vs f35??

2 i assume your last sentence in your 2nd paragraph implys manuverbility of stealth jet is still important....well my personal understaning is if you down play the manuverbility of stealth jets one day you may have to count your ass on the manuverbility of the ejection seat.........

Kopp's stealth assessment is bogus. No need to use that as a reference.

thats a pretty bold claim....he is mr Carlo Kopp - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and you are mr ???

 

[average american]

i think the most funny thing is not about what vs what but when people are talking specific things parts techs details and new developments he just comes out with all the history 14 year old young boys probably have known............history cant prove any thing that is going on in the current world.........

Those that ignore history are just doomed to repeat it.

Manuverbility is just a turd the Russians and the Chinese keep polishing because they dont have any thing else. 80 to 95 kills happen befor an pliot even knows hes under attack or its too late to do anything about it. Its been that way even during World War II.

 

[huaxia rox]

Then have the decency not to take cheap shots at the F35 since all the J20 is just stolen Russian obsolete technology.

you better show me a decent reason how this is a copy or stolen tech in j-20...The Aviationist » China’s new stealth fighter’s missile launch rails prove Beijing can improve U.S. technology

 

[huaxia rox]

Those that ignore history are just doomed to repeat it.

Manuverbility is just a turd the Russians and the Chinese keep polishing because they dont have any thing else. 80 to 95 kills happen befor an pliot even knows hes under attack or its too late to do anything about it. Its been that way even during World War II.

1 i am talking about some stealth planes you are saying WW2 history........not that we dont know history but history is history and who is only good at hisotry should go to high school and uni to become a history teacher........

2 my little suggestion for you in this specific thread is the only thing you need to say is "chinese tech is old and copy....russian is old......only the us tech is advanced....period"..........why keep turnning up saying the say thing every single time??? not that its not allowed....i am just curious.....

 

[p2prada]

1 then when would those expensive and difficultly developed and advanced radars on those stealth fight jets say f-22 be used???? or just cant be used in the senario of j20 vs f35??

Barrage jamming of spectrum would mean even you cannot use the spectrum.

2 i assume your last sentence in your 2nd paragraph implys manuverbility of stealth jet is still important....well my personal understaning is if you down play the manuverbility of stealth jets one day you may have to count your ass on the manuverbility of the ejection seat.........

It depends on how maneuverable missiles can be too.

thats a pretty bold claim....he is mr Carlo Kopp - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and you are mr ???

It doesn't matter who I am when he himself said his stealth assessment is bogus.

Anyway, Kopp believes the J-20 is bigger than F-111. He also says it is either an interceptor like the Mig-31 and will primarily deal with taking out support aircraft like AWACS and tankers or it is a strike aircraft which can load itself with LGBs to take out USN ships.

Chengdu J-XX [J-20] Stealth Fighter Prototype / A Preliminary Assessment

The J-XX/J-20 is a large fighter, similar in size to an F-111.

The size of the J-XX/J-20 airframe, and the self evident focus on supersonic persistence, suggests, at a minimum, an intention to provide a long range interceptor for anti-access operations in the Second Island Chain geography.

The J-XX/J-20 design could be employed as a penetrating strike aircraft, in the combat radius class of the F-111 or Su-34 Fullback,

But we know that it is neither as big as the F-111 nor is it an interceptor like the Mig-31.

The article is pure imaginary speculation.