What does that got to do with J-15? There are no orders for modernized Su-33 in Russian navy or PLAN. Period.
Then you wouldn't have paper carriers in the ocean today. You would have had aircraft.
As was said in the article I posted, China wanted 14 Su-33s while Russia wanted China to buy 24 in order to amortize costs of R&D and production. Even after paying for development costs, the MKI costs $40Million a piece. The Su-33 would have cost much lesser in comparison since it won't carry most of the more advanced stuff on the MKI. The Mig-29K costs $45Million with development costs.
Now Russia has to replace its entire carrier infrastructure and overhaul the entire logistics supply in favor of the Mig-29K from the Flanker current infrastructure, apart from setting up a new training regimen. It is so obvious which was the cheaper one that you don't even need to have school education to know that.
14 aircraft for Liaoning makes sense. Had you ordered these in 2009-10 you would have had aircraft + carrier TODAY, not just a carrier. Not 3 or 4 years from now.
I believe I read somewhere your first J-15 will be inducted in 2016, followed by a regiment a few years later. Tell me what is good, an advanced Flanker on an operational carrier in 2013 or one nearing 2020.
BS. There is no way you can know the exact cost between upgrade packages for those two aircrafts. Again, let us not turn this into an India vs China thread.
The Mig-29K should have been more expensive. It was a major upgrade of the airframe.
Su-33 upgrades would have been far lesser since a large number of Su-27s were being upgraded at the same time, Su-27SM. Sukhoi has made huge profits from Flanker sales. A major AESA upgrade could very well have been possible in the future, as a follow up to the MKI's upgrade.
There is no source since there was no requirement for MTOW capability for Su-33s. They just needed fleet defence. So a full 100% fuel + 8 air to air missiles was possible. For multirole capability you will need at least 4 or 6 air to air missiles and an extra 1 or 2 tonnes of bombs and missiles.
Again BS, how you know what they had planned for Su.33?
As I already pointed out. K can take off with weapons + missiles + fuel for all out multirole capability. Su-33s cannot. There is not enough deck space for take off with such loads.
Again you are using your own bias to judge an unknown aircraft. How you know what it is capable of? I find it funny that on the one hand you are claming J-15 is only a prototype, on the other hand, you are already discussion its capabilities like some guru
It is very simple. You need deck space. You don't have deck space. You can fit whatever size engine you want, but there is a limit to how much power you can have, you cannot change the size of the aircraft and the deck space is limited. You don't need knowledge of a guru, you just need common sense.
There is no heavy aircraft that can take off at MTOW from a STOBAR arrangement. You will need catapults to throw the aircraft off the deck.
J-15 isn't a magic aircraft. It is a Su-33 with a different name. It will have Su-33s deficiencies. Adding 5KN of extra thrust won't help you carry multiple tonnes of extra load. You will need something like 180KN engines to throw the aircraft off at MTOW from such a small deck, but even that will probably come with more physics laws strings attached
You got be freaking kidding me. Dude, we have seen prototypes of J-15 landing and flying off the deck of Liaoning.
Even the shore based LCA took you freaking 3 decades. And it is LCA= Light Combat aircraft.
So what? A prototype is a prototype. It is not an operational aircraft. You can't fight your enemies or train your pilots and deck crew or your Navy with prototypes. You cannot create maintenance and flight schedules with prototypes, you cannot even work on strategy and tactics with prototypes. You need operational aircraft. An order of 24 Su-33s would have given you the "operational" aircraft TODAY so your pilots would have been ready when your next carrier would have come.
I feel it was always planned that way. Get the Varyag working now, buy some Su-33s. Build up an operations database over the decade so when the J-16 and a new carrier are built the crews will be trained and ready for actual combat operations.
Look at the time wasted now. You will need the J-16s first (operational, mind you, not prototypes), which is currently a development aircraft and then work on setting up an operations database, which will take you a decade after you get the J-16s. Remember you have no prior carrier experience. It won't just drop down into the heads of your officers and sailors the minute you touch a carrier. You will get it by working on the carrier for a decade or more.
You lost that decade with the failure of the Su-33 deal.
So don't tell me the BS that you didn't need Su-33s simply because you had a few flights of the J-15.
Again, how is that relevant to our discussion? It is more important that SAC do it right then to win some bragging rights.
Excellent. Keep waiting till SAC "gets it right."
The more time it takes the more time we have to prepare. Don't forget, you can only field a carrier if you have aircraft to train from. You will need a decade just to get a training regimen setup for carrier operations. Something that we have been doing with the Mig-29K for quite sometime now, even with Russian and American assistance. You could have gotten that in a shortcut method by training with the Russians on Kuznetsov with the Su-33 deal. Now it would take even longer. After your training regimen is setup that's when you have an operational carrier. After that you will need another decade to integrate the carrier into your Navy's doctrine. So, cheerio.
Do share with us your knowledge in this area. What is the norm in developing a 4 gen. heavy fighter on your first attempt? I am really interested to know this. You do know that T-10K was an unfinished prototypes that needed alot rework, right?
Are you even aware of what we have been discussing about?
What does it matter if it was done on purpose or not? It was not delivered on time. You got milked big time. You were hold hostage to russian demands.
That they offered to buy it was just BS. They said pay or leave it to us. They played the hard ball and India lost. Period.
Lol. Ok. Don't forget Sevmash is working up a loss on the Gorky.
The offer to buy the carrier was to get more from the Russian Navy to work up a profit.
Sevmash -----ed up, IN -----ed up. That's why there is no bad blood between them. They know they both -----ed up and are trying to fix it in a no-profit no-loss deal.
No way China wants to end up in the same situation. China bought and finished Liaoning at a fraction of the price India payed.
Yeah right. You just bought the hull for a lot of money. Had to replace everything inside. Don't tell me that was a fraction of the price. Even the best jokes are less funny.
Domestic J-15 has always been their plan A. They will be deployed on Liaoning and the domestic one that are coming. No way they gonna leave it to the polar bear.
Okay, you have the carrier. Now, where is the J-15? It doesn't look like Plan A is working within the same time frame.
For the record I am not saying all of them are lies. But you need to double check them with official chinese sources. Most of the time, it was unsound rumours.
There are none or extremely rare official news from China. The ones you really get are trinkets. The ones you don't get are answered by pics.
You will never get official news from China which will result in a loss of face. The news about the Su-35 purchase would have resulted in a loss of face, even if it is a major boost to your force.
Even in India, a lot of news is kept hidden, it is just that our media is far more well connected that the news doesn't remain hidden for too long. The establishment just tries to keep the news hidden for as long as necessary. Comparatively China is far less transparent due to a very weak media. OTOH, Russian industry works in a similar way as India's. There is a limit beyond which they will end up revealing to the media to protect their own business once the deal matured to a certain level. With a Su-35 sales leak to the media, they would generate interest from other countries in the process. You can expect leaks in a multi-country deal, while there will be little or no leaks within China's domestic ventures.
If a deal does not go through, you can say that it was all a lie, but even in India there are so many deals that do not go through due to a multitude of issues even during advanced stages of negotiations, like the Kaveri deal with France. The establishment could have always remained tight lipped throughout. Similarly, we are also keeping our fingers crossed with the MRCA deal, because even this deal can fail. Had the news come out in France that there were engine negotiations going on, once the deal failed, the Indian forum world could have claimed it as fake news since it was reported only in France.
EDIT: Can you fix your quote, so it is easier to reply to? You will need to start with the word "quote" and end a paragraph with "/quote" in square brackets.
