J20 Stealth Fighter

[ice berg]

Then you wouldn't have paper carriers in the ocean today. You would have had aircraft.

As was said in the article I posted, China wanted 14 Su-33s while Russia wanted China to buy 24 in order to amortize costs of R&D and production. Even after paying for development costs, the MKI costs $40Million a piece. The Su-33 would have cost much lesser in comparison since it won't carry most of the more advanced stuff on the MKI. The Mig-29K costs $45Million with development costs.

Again you basing your entire argument on a rumour which are not confirmed by the buyer. How silly is that? Not to mention that price is always relative. What is included in the price? Paying for an inferior product is not an option

Now Russia has to replace its entire carrier infrastructure and overhaul the entire logistics supply in favor of the Mig-29K from the Flanker current infrastructure, apart from setting up a new training regimen. It is so obvious which was the cheaper one that you don't even need to have school education to know that.
Again, no numbers shown, just a guess from your side.

14 aircraft for Liaoning makes sense. Had you ordered these in 2009-10 you would have had aircraft + carrier TODAY, not just a carrier. Not 3 or 4 years from now.

Dude, The first J-15 prototype performed its maiden flight on August 31, 2009, On May 6, 2010, the aircraft conducted its first takeoff from a simulated ski-jump. Why you want to order SU-33 by then? NO idea where you get your 3 or 4 years from. Again one of your " un/educated guesses"

I believe I read somewhere your first J-15 will be inducted in 2016, followed by a regiment a few years later. Tell me what is good, an advanced Flanker on an operational carrier in 2013 or one nearing 2020.

Hard for me to comment when the only source you got is "I read it somewhere". Last time I checked chinese aviators are training on Liaoning with J-15s. You dont need production models to train landing and take offs.

The Mig-29K should have been more expensive. It was a major upgrade of the airframe.

Su-33 upgrades would have been far lesser since a large number of Su-27s were being upgraded at the same time, Su-27SM. Sukhoi has made huge profits from Flanker sales. A major AESA upgrade could very well have been possible in the future, as a follow up to the MKI's upgrade.

Su-27 is not the same as Su-33. Cant believe I have to explain this. Not to mention the fact that CHina will be hold hostage to Russia for all the upgrades.

There is no source since there was no requirement for MTOW capability for Su-33s. They just needed fleet defence. So a full 100% fuel + 8 air to air missiles was possible. For multirole capability you will need at least 4 or 6 air to air missiles and an extra 1 or 2 tonnes of bombs and missiles.

What is the PLAN requirements for J-15? dont know? Me neither.

As I already pointed out. K can take off with weapons + missiles + fuel for all out multirole capability. Su-33s cannot. There is not enough deck space for take off with such loads.

Compared with the rival MiG-29K, the Su-33's maximum takeoff weight (MTOW) is 50% higher; fuel capacity is more than double, allowing it to fly 80% further at altitude (or 33% at sea level). From wiki. but probably more than your educated guesses.

It is very simple. You need deck space. You don't have deck space. You can fit whatever size engine you want, but there is a limit to how much power you can have, you cannot change the size of the aircraft and the deck space is limited. You don't need knowledge of a guru, you just need common sense.

There is no heavy aircraft that can take off at MTOW from a STOBAR arrangement. You will need catapults to throw the aircraft off the deck.

J-15 isn't a magic aircraft. It is a Su-33 with a different name. It will have Su-33s deficiencies. Adding 5KN of extra thrust won't help you carry multiple tonnes of extra load. You will need something like 180KN engines to throw the aircraft off at MTOW from such a small deck, but even that will probably come with more physics laws strings attached

Pure BS. J-15 is Su-33 airframe with upgraded avionics and weapons as well composites. It is far superior than the old Su-33 who were inducted two decades ago,.
It is plain silly to assume they are the same. The softwares itself will be decades more advanced

So what? A prototype is a prototype. It is not an operational aircraft. You can't fight your enemies or train your pilots and deck crew or your Navy with prototypes. You cannot create maintenance and flight schedules with prototypes, you cannot even work on strategy and tactics with prototypes. You need operational aircraft. An order of 24 Su-33s would have given you the "operational" aircraft TODAY so your pilots would have been ready when your next carrier would have come.

I feel it was always planned that way. Get the Varyag working now, buy some Su-33s. Build up an operations database over the decade so when the J-16 and a new carrier are built the crews will be trained and ready for actual combat operations.

Look at the time wasted now. You will need the J-16s first (operational, mind you, not prototypes), which is currently a development aircraft and then work on setting up an operations database, which will take you a decade after you get the J-16s. Remember you have no prior carrier experience. It won't just drop down into the heads of your officers and sailors the minute you touch a carrier. You will get it by working on the carrier for a decade or more.

You lost that decade with the failure of the Su-33 deal.

So don't tell me the BS that you didn't need Su-33s simply because you had a few flights of the J-15.

Were there delays? sure. But a lost decade? That is stratch it abit. Liaoning was commisioned in 2012. When did J-15 land and took off on deck? And you can train pilots on prototypes too, Like you said PLAN had no prior carrier experiences. And I think you are underestimate the significanse of the prototypes. The fact that they were confident enough to fly them off the decks show you that they are far more refined aircrafts than you give them credits for.

Excellent. Keep waiting till SAC "gets it right."

A few years are worth the wait in the grand scheme of things.

The more time it takes the more time we have to prepare. Don't forget, you can only field a carrier if you have aircraft to train from. You will need a decade just to get a training regimen setup for carrier operations. Something that we have been doing with the Mig-29K for quite sometime now, even with Russian and American assistance. You could have gotten that in a shortcut method by training with the Russians on Kuznetsov with the Su-33 deal. Now it would take even longer. After your training regimen is setup that's when you have an operational carrier. After that you will need another decade to integrate the carrier into your Navy's doctrine. So, cheerio.

I have to chuckle here. China didnt start ACs to count India. You are reading too much ToI if you think that way.
PLAN called Liaoning a training carrier. There are far more truth in that than you realize. I highly doubt it will ever be used again IN.
Did PLAN buy Su-33? No.
Can they afford it? Sure.
That means they think they can afford to wait for domestic options. Who are you to judge the timeframe of chinese carrier developments?Liaoning is only a small step.[/B]

Are you even aware of what we have been discussing about?

No, cause you are going in circles.

Lol. Ok. Don't forget Sevmash is working up a loss on the Gorky.

The offer to buy the carrier was to get more from the Russian Navy to work up a profit.

How kind of you.

Sevmash -----ed up, IN -----ed up. That's why there is no bad blood between them. They know they both -----ed up and are trying to fix it in a no-profit no-loss deal.

So it is INs fault that they got milked? Well, in a way you are right..

Yeah right. You just bought the hull for a lot of money. Had to replace everything inside. Don't tell me that was a fraction of the price. Even the best jokes are less funny.

The best joke is you paid 2,9 billions for a ship that are delayed again and again and again. Whatever the chinese payed, it was nowhere near. Not to mention they are done by domestic companies. Jobs to chinese workers as well experiences gained. More than we can say of Gorky

Okay, you have the carrier. Now, where is the J-15? It doesn't look like Plan A is working within the same time frame.

They are flying of the decks. There are a few videos out there. The delay is not so significant you make it sound

There are none or extremely rare official news from China. The ones you really get are trinkets. The ones you don't get are answered by pics.

If PLA needs to comment on every russian rumour that surfaced, then they will be quite overburdened. Btw just because ToI didnt post it, dosnt means official news dont exist.

You will never get official news from China which will result in a loss of face. The news about the Su-35 purchase would have resulted in a loss of face, even if it is a major boost to your force.

Say again? Beijing Denies Russian Rumors of Su-35 Purchase; Evaluating China's Intelligence Penetration of Taiwan.
The Jamestown Foundation: Beijing Denies Russian Rumors of Su-35 Purchase; Evaluating China's Intelligence Penetration of Taiwan

Even in India, a lot of news is kept hidden, it is just that our media is far more well connected that the news doesn't remain hidden for too long. The establishment just tries to keep the news hidden for as long as necessary. Comparatively China is far less transparent due to a very weak media. OTOH, Russian industry works in a similar way as India's. There is a limit beyond which they will end up revealing to the media to protect their own business once the deal matured to a certain level. With a Su-35 sales leak to the media, they would generate interest from other countries in the process. You can expect leaks in a multi-country deal, while there will be little or no leaks within China's domestic ventures.

Dude , I have heard about Su-35 purchase since 2008. Basically it surfaces every year. You will excuse me if I have some reservations

If a deal does not go through, you can say that it was all a lie, but even in India there are so many deals that do not go through due to a multitude of issues even during advanced stages of negotiations, like the Kaveri deal with France. The establishment could have always remained tight lipped throughout. Similarly, we are also keeping our fingers crossed with the MRCA deal, because even this deal can fail. Had the news come out in France that there were engine negotiations going on, once the deal failed, the Indian forum world could have claimed it as fake news since it was reported only in France.

You are still going in circles. I spend tons of time educate you that China is not gonna buy Su-33 today that you claimed. I am not disagreeing with you that China may wanted to buy Su-33 earlier. There is no turning back now for PLAN.

EDIT: Can you fix your quote, so it is easier to reply to? You will need to start with the word "quote" and end a paragraph with "/quote" in square brackets.

Mods are free to move the posts to Liaoning thread.

 

[p2prada]

Again, no numbers shown, just a guess from your side.

Its not just a relative guess. It is an informed guess. Su-33 can't be upgraded to Su-35 levels. It will have to be at Su-27SM levels simply because the weight gain is too much.

Dude, The first J-15 prototype performed its maiden flight on August 31, 2009, On May 6, 2010, the aircraft conducted its first takeoff from a simulated ski-jump. Why you want to order SU-33 by then? NO idea where you get your 3 or 4 years from. Again one of your " un/educated guesses"

It is not enough because if you consider first flight happened in 2009 then induction at regiment level will be in 2019-2020. That's on a good day. Also, J-15 comes with canards so the testing will be much more complex than regular J-11A to J-11B conversion flight tests.

Its like saying J-20 flew in 2011 and inducted in 2020, then why do you need J-11B? It is obvious, isn't it? To get something in the decade between first flight and squadron/regiment induction.

India is going to get entirely new aircraft every 5 years until 2030, you think a richer force like China will be sitting without inductions for 10 years. Nuts.

Hard for me to comment when the only source you got is "I read it somewhere". Last time I checked chinese aviators are training on Liaoning with J-15s. You dont need production models to train landing and take offs.

You have 5 prototypes and you are training. The Americans have around 70 F-35s and still don't call it inducted.

The fact of the matter is, with just a few touch and go flights you can't even be sure the entire program would even succeed.

Su-27 is not the same as Su-33. Cant believe I have to explain this. Not to mention the fact that CHina will be hold hostage to Russia for all the upgrades.

What about radar and avionics? You are asking for upgrades, radar and other avionics are upgrades. You modified J-10's radar for J-11s, what makes you believe a radar that was made for Su-27SM cannot be used in Su-27K.

Compared with the rival MiG-29K, the Su-33's maximum takeoff weight (MTOW) is 50% higher; fuel capacity is more than double, allowing it to fly 80% further at altitude (or 33% at sea level). From wiki. but probably more than your educated guesses.

Yes, yes. But this is for the first Mig-29K, which isn't the same as what we have. Remember I already explained. The first Mig-29K was made form Mig-29A, the second Mig-29K was made from Mig-35 or more specifically Mig-29M. It is like the difference between F/A-18C Hornet and F/A-18E Super Hornet.

Mig-29K/Mig-29M/Mig-35 etc are called Super Fulcrums. Mig-29M and future version are a whole new family of aircraft. Mig-35 is the air force version of the Mig-29M for export. It was called Mig-29MRCA for sometime.

Mig-29Ks new MTOW is 3 tonnes greater than before. Fuel capacity is half, but can also carry 5 drop tanks for increased range. There are 5 wet points on Mig-29K compared to 3 on Su-27K. With the massive increase in fuel, the Mig-29K has lessened that range considerably. Most importantly, the 190m point allows Mig-29K to take off at full MTOW of 22.5 tonnes compared to Su-33s loaded weight of 30 tonnes.

The Mig also saves deck space which is an important commodity even on larger carriers. At the same time, the Mig-29K has better logistics, with requirements for lesser amount of fuel, can run more missions and turn around time is faster. Big plus points as a whole.

I am not saying the Mig is the better aircraft compared to a Flanker. What I am saying is the Flanker is so big that it cannot use its full capabilities on a carrier.

Pure BS. J-15 is Su-33 airframe with upgraded avionics and weapons as well composites. It is far superior than the old Su-33 who were inducted two decades ago,.
It is plain silly to assume they are the same. The softwares itself will be decades more advanced

Nothings changed to the point you are making it out to be. You managed to make some of it from composites, but that doesn't change a lot of things.

Granted the Su-33 is less advanced than the J-15 for obvious reasons. But that still does not mean it will take off at MTOW. It doesn't matter if you make J-15 more advanced than F-35. The aircraft is still big and heavy.

Were there delays? sure. But a lost decade? That is stratch it abit. Liaoning was commisioned in 2012. When did J-15 land and took off on deck? And you can train pilots on prototypes too, Like you said PLAN had no prior carrier experiences. And I think you are underestimate the significanse of the prototypes. The fact that they were confident enough to fly them off the decks show you that they are far more refined aircrafts than you give them credits for.

ROFL. Just touch and go flights don't mean anything. Nor do they add to any kind of experience.

You can't train pilots on prototypes, you need experiences pilots on prototypes. And SAC needs the prototypes for tests. Prototypes come with a lot of testing equipment and until the last prototype is ready it is an unfinished aircraft. You can't train pilots on it unless you are training a test pilot, who will also be a very experienced pilot.

Naval aircraft are meant to be flown off the deck. Touch and go flights don't mean landing and take off. They are entirely different maneuvers.

A few years are worth the wait in the grand scheme of things.

It is not just a few years. You did negotiate for Su-33s and the deal failed. There is no known time frame for when the J-15 will be inducted, at least I don't know. Those few years should have started from 2013 on wards, as was Plan A.

have to chuckle here. China didnt start ACs to count India. You are reading too much ToI if you think that way.
PLAN called Liaoning a training carrier. There are far more truth in that than you realize. I highly doubt it will ever be used again IN.
Did PLAN buy Su-33? No.
Can they afford it? Sure.
That means they think they can afford to wait for domestic options. Who are you to judge the timeframe of chinese carrier developments?Liaoning is only a small step.[/B]

Your posts have gotten funnier. Where in our discussion did I say Liaoning will be used against India? Please point out the same. Heck I don't think it will even leave Chinese waters let alone waltz into the Indian ocean.

Liaoning is a small step indeed. Liaoning with Su-33s would have been a frighteningly massive step.

The best joke is you paid 2,9 billions for a ship that are delayed again and again and again. Whatever the chinese payed, it was nowhere near.

2.9 is wrong. 2.33 is right.

"Chinese did not pay anywhere close." Who are you kidding? You are wrong on so many levels that I can't even fathom how you have no idea of what costs to make a ship and where the costs actually go to.

You spent $30Million in getting Varyag to China and probably paid another $30Million for the refit, how does the sound?

Kuznetsov is undergoing mid-life refit. How about you wait for costs to come out? Varyag should have costed much more than that because a lot of the hull had to be rebuilt.

Not to mention they are done by domestic companies. Jobs to chinese workers as well experiences gained. More than we can say of Gorky

How will any of that help us fight a war?

We have been building our own carrier too.

ay again? Beijing Denies Russian Rumors of Su-35 Purchase; Evaluating China's Intelligence Penetration of Taiwan.
The Jamestown Foundation: Beijing Denies Russian Rumors of Su-35 Purchase; Evaluating China's Intelligence Penetration of Taiwan

Lot of its and buts. Both sides quoted what are supposed to be important people. Fomin on one and your minster on the other. One of them is lying.

But considering top people from both sides talked of the same, something was brewing.

Had it been a plain rumor, the Chinese minister wouldn't have talked about it.

Dude , I have heard about Su-33 purchase since 2008. You will excuse me if I have some reservations

Right, so now, Col. Igor Korotchenko is lying when he said,

Russia downplays Chinese J-15 fighter capabilities | Defense | RIA Novosti
"The Chinese J-15 clone is unlikely to achieve the same performance characteristics of the Russian Su-33 carrier-based fighter, and I do not rule out the possibility that China could return to negotiations with Russia on the purchase of a substantial batch of Su-33s," said Col. (Ret.) Igor Korotchenko, a member of the Defense Ministry's Public Council.


It is funny how the Russian "liars" always find credible quotes from more or less credible people.

You are still going in circles. I spend tons of time educate you that China is not gonna buy Su-33 today that you claimed. I am not disagreeing with you that China may wanted to buy Su-33 earlier. There is no turning back now for PLAN.

Huh! I was saying the same too. China planned on buying Su-33s for induction by 2013 when Liaoning became operational.

Now I would agree that China doesn't need the Su-33s since it will take too long for contract negotiations and delivery.

Su-33 was plan A, it failed. Plan B is J-15s by, say, well after 2015, maybe by 2020.

I am disputing your point that China did not need the Su-33s.

You still need to fix the quotes. Start a para with quote and end it with quote. There should be no other extra quotes anywhere else. Only then will it work. It is like how you bold your own statements. Just make sure there are no extra B boxes anywhere. Quote works exactly the same as bold.

 

[ice berg]

It is not enough because if you consider first flight happened in 2009 then induction at regiment level will be in 2019-2020. That's on a good day. Also, J-15 comes with canards so the testing will be much more complex than regular J-11A to J-11B conversion flight tests.

10 years from first flignt to induction? China is not India for gods sake. More like 2015-2017.

Its like saying J-20 flew in 2011 and inducted in 2020, then why do you need J-11B? It is obvious, isn't it? To get something in the decade between first flight and squadron/regiment induction.

What does J-11 got to do with all this? J-11 is shore based . rofl.

India is going to get entirely new aircraft every 5 years until 2030, you think a richer force like China will be sitting without inductions for 10 years. Nuts.

J-10B, J-16, JH7-B, J-20, Y-20 within this decade alone. No idea where you get the idea that China will be sitting without inductions for 10 years.

You have 5 prototypes and you are training. The Americans have around 70 F-35s and still don't call it inducted.

No kidding Sherlock, It is US.

The fact of the matter is, with just a few touch and go flights you can't even be sure the entire program would even succeed.

Notice you are the one judging the success of a program that just started on a few touch and goes.

What about radar and avionics? You are asking for upgrades, radar and other avionics are upgrades. You modified J-10's radar for J-11s, what makes you believe a radar that was made for Su-27SM cannot be used in Su-27K.

Not sure where your Su-27K come in here. Are we talking about the J-15 or not?

Yes, yes. But this is for the first Mig-29K, which isn't the same as what we have. Remember I already explained. The first Mig-29K was made form Mig-29A, the second Mig-29K was made from Mig-35 or more specifically Mig-29M. It is like the difference between F/A-18C Hornet and F/A-18E Super Hornet.

Mig-29K/Mig-29M/Mig-35 etc are called Super Fulcrums. Mig-29M and future version are a whole new family of aircraft. Mig-35 is the air force version of the Mig-29M for export. It was called Mig-29MRCA for sometime.

Mig-29Ks new MTOW is 3 tonnes greater than before. Fuel capacity is half, but can also carry 5 drop tanks for increased range. There are 5 wet points on Mig-29K compared to 3 on Su-27K. With the massive increase in fuel, the Mig-29K has lessened that range considerably. Most importantly, the 190m point allows Mig-29K to take off at full MTOW of 22.5 tonnes compared to Su-33s loaded weight of 30 tonnes.

The Mig also saves deck space which is an important commodity even on larger carriers. At the same time, the Mig-29K has better logistics, with requirements for lesser amount of fuel, can run more missions and turn around time is faster. Big plus points as a whole.

A source or two about your claims will be good.

I am not saying the Mig is the better aircraft compared to a Flanker. What I am saying is the Flanker is so big that it cannot use its full capabilities on a carrier.

Really, judging from your post, that is exactly what you trying to say.

Nothings changed to the point you are making it out to be. You managed to make some of it from composites, but that doesn't change a lot of things.

Granted the Su-33 is less advanced than the J-15 for obvious reasons. But that still does not mean it will take off at MTOW. It doesn't matter if you make J-15 more advanced than F-35. The aircraft is still big and heavy.

Flankers are among the most agile jets out there. Dispite their sizes.

ROFL. Just touch and go flights don't mean anything. Nor do they add to any kind of experience.

They do for a navy who never had a AC before.

You can't train pilots on prototypes, you need experiences pilots on prototypes. And SAC needs the prototypes for tests. Prototypes come with a lot of testing equipment and until the last prototype is ready it is an unfinished aircraft. You can't train pilots on it unless you are training a test pilot, who will also be a very experienced pilot.

Sounds like a contradiction, especially the last sentence.

Naval aircraft are meant to be flown off the deck. Touch and go flights don't mean landing and take off. They are entirely different maneuvers.

Now I feel you are trolling here. We have seen videos of J-15s training on take off and landings from Liaoning.

It is not just a few years. You did negotiate for Su-33s and the deal failed. There is no known time frame for when the J-15 will be inducted, at least I don't know. Those few years should have started from 2013 on wards, as was Plan A.

Sure, you do. You even gave us a timeframe 2019-2020

Your posts have gotten funnier. Where in our discussion did I say Liaoning will be used against India? Please point out the same. Heck I don't think it will even leave Chinese waters let alone waltz into the Indian ocean.

Cant even remember your own post? here: The more time it takes the more time we have to prepare. Don't forget, you can only field a carrier if you have aircraft to train from. Are you not imply IN here then? ROFL

Liaoning is a small step indeed. Liaoning with Su-33s would have been a frighteningly massive step.

Let us agree to disgaree here then. It is strange that you think Su-33 is a interim solution , yet hail it as a frightening massive step. Strange logic. PLAN could have bought the Su-33 any time they want. They picked J-15. Who are you to pretend you know better than them? ROFL

2.9 is wrong. 2.33 is right.

2,35 actually. And more for the aircrafts. LOL

"Chinese did not pay anywhere close." Who are you kidding? You are wrong on so many levels that I can't even fathom how you have no idea of what costs to make a ship and where the costs actually go to.

You spent $30Million in getting Varyag to China and probably paid another $30Million for the refit, how does the sound?

Certainly less than 2,35 billions. LOL. And yes, they went to build up domestic industry and train domestic workers. Not Russian workers and their pocket. It is jingoisme just prevent you from aknowledging that. You got milked, Everyone knows that.

Kuznetsov is undergoing mid-life refit. How about you wait for costs to come out? Varyag should have costed much more than that because a lot of the hull had to be rebuilt.

What makes you think costs and efficiency in Russian shipbuilding is the same as the chinese. China is the second largest shipbuilder in world. What about Russia? ROFL. Just look the entire Gorky affair.

How will any of that help us fight a war?

We have been building our own carrier too.



Lot of its and buts. Both sides quoted what are supposed to be important people. Fomin on one and your minster on the other. One of them is lying.

But considering top people from both sides talked of the same, something was brewing.

Had it been a plain rumor, the Chinese minister wouldn't have talked about it.



Right, so now, Col. Igor Korotchenko is lying when he said,

Russia downplays Chinese J-15 fighter capabilities | Defense | RIA Novosti
"The Chinese J-15 clone is unlikely to achieve the same performance characteristics of the Russian Su-33 carrier-based fighter, and I do not rule out the possibility that China could return to negotiations with Russia on the purchase of a substantial batch of Su-33s," said Col. (Ret.) Igor Korotchenko, a member of the Defense Ministry's Public Council.

I usually dont post some sources, but: China Signpost believes the J-15 "likely exceeds or matches the aerodynamic capabilities of virtually all fighter aircraft currently operated by regional militaries, with the exception of the U.S. F-22 Raptor",[17] alleging that the J-15 likely possesses a 10% superior thrust to weight ratio and a 25% lower wing loading than the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet. Even russian sources to downplay a chinese prototype. How low can you sunk? ROFL

It is funny how the Russian "liars" always find credible quotes from more or less credible people.

I love the part of more or less credible people. LOL.

.

read above.

 

[p2prada]

@iceberg

I was preoccupied in the LTTE thread. I will come back to your post tomorrow.

However this may add some perspective to the thread.

PLA signs preliminary deal for 24 Russian Su-35 jet fighters | South China Morning Post

A Beijing-based PLA senior colonel, who requested anonymity, said: "We decided to buy the Su-35 because it's a fact that our home-made engines have failed to measure up to the Russian products."

Why Russians simply don't lie through their teeth for no reason. Leaks happen and this obviously turned out to be true. Also why you shouldn't jump to conclusions about your own capability.

 

[ice berg]

Why Russians simply don't lie through their teeth for no reason. Leaks happen and this obviously turned out to be true. Also why you shouldn't jump to conclusions about your own capability.

The part about unnamed PLA senior colonel is just bull. The engines were offered to PLA. They dont need to buy the aircrafts because of that. The fact that J-11Bs are equiped by Ws-10 is testimony of that. Whatever the reason they picked su-35 , it got nothing to do with the engines. Certainly not relevant to J-15 that we are discussing

 

[p2prada]

10 years from first flignt to induction? China is not India for gods sake. More like 2015-2017.

There are procedures to be followed. China is definitely not India. You don't have carrier experience.

Also, I did agree with your date. Didn't I tell you I read somewhere that the J-15 will be inducted in 2016? It fits right in with your 2015-2017. Does it not?

But by the time you have your aircraft achieve FOC and raise the first regiment, it will be 2020, maybe even more.

I am pretty sure you will agree to this now.

What does J-11 got to do with all this? J-11 is shore based . rofl.

You didn't get the point. You are flight testing your J-15 and J-20 now. So, my point is if you have the J-20 flying, why do you need J-11B which is in production. You were the one who claimed, that your J-15 is flying now, so why would you need Su-33. Do you get the point now?

J-15 and J-20 seem to have similar flight timelines. J-11B is in production and the Su-33 can also be put into production fairly quickly. So you were trying to discredit production aircraft in favor of development aircraft. This was my point.

-10B, J-16, JH7-B, J-20, Y-20 within this decade alone. No idea where you get the idea that China will be sitting without inductions for 10 years.

None of them will be on carriers. Hence, no major inductions this decade. You will induct the J-15 later this decade and then progress towards J-21 or more J-15s.

No kidding Sherlock, It is US.

That's the point. Don't kid yourself. Your J-15 is still far from fighting a war. A few touch and go flights don't mean anything.

Not sure where your Su-27K come in here. Are we talking about the J-15 or not?

Su-27K is the Russian military version of the Su-33. Su-33 is the export name. You said the Su-33 isn't advanced, I pointed out the Russians can upgrade it for export. After all PLAN did negotiate for it.

Really, judging from your post, that is exactly what you trying to say.

Let's just say that unit for unit, in certain roles the Su-33 is better, like air policing etc. In certain roles Mig-29K is better.

With 3 drop tanks, the Mig-29K can carry 6 missiles and have a range of 3200Km.

With no drop tanks, the Su-33 can carry 8 missiles comfortably and have a range of 3000Km.

You see the difference. The Mig-29K can also carry all sorts of bombs and missiles too. Since they can take off with heavy loads. The Mig-29Ks also have the option of buddy refueling where the buddy can refuel a Mig-29K back to its full fuel capacity. The Su-33 cannot do the same.

Flankers are among the most agile jets out there. Dispite their sizes.

Of course.

They do for a navy who never had a AC before.

You are setting lower benchmarks for yourself then.

Sounds like a contradiction, especially the last sentence.

Experienced pilots will retire in a few years. Where will you train new trainees from?

Now I feel you are trolling here. We have seen videos of J-15s training on take off and landings from Liaoning.

I haven't see these. Regardless, it doesn't mean much.

Sure, you do. You even gave us a timeframe 2019-2020

Isn't it correct? You gave induction timeline as 2015-17. I gave regiment being raised by 2019-20. Very realistic.

Cant even remember your own post? here: The more time it takes the more time we have to prepare. Don't forget, you can only field a carrier if you have aircraft to train from. Are you not imply IN here then? ROFL

I will repeat, where in this discussion did I say Liaoning will be used against India. The part you quoted only says we will get the time to prepare. It has nothing to do with Liaoning per se.

Okay, let me explain. You have a carrier today. By the time you fly and train with operational aircraft, you will need atleast 5-10 years before you are ready for a fight. With the loss of the Su-33 deal, you would have lost this chance at least until 2015-17. Still you will need to have regiment level exercises in order to truly develop any kind of capability to operate a carrier.

So which is better, 12 Su-33s and 12 pilots training on Su-33s from 2013 onwards or 12 J-15s training from 2017 onwards?

You get the point now? See what you have lost due to this delay? By the time you get your first proper trainee pilots, we will have two whole carriers minimum with veteran pilots. By the time you build a database for carrier operations, which will take at least 10 years, we will have already inducted our third large carrier with new aircraft.

At least now do you see what you lost with the Su-33? Or are you still going to remain stubborn regarding this?

Anyway the discussion was about J-20 as a carrier aircraft. You don't need it. You are better off with a smaller aircraft doing everything than a larger aircraft doing only one or two things while flying even lesser. Even the USN isn't gunning for 40 tonne aircraft. They are sticking with 30 tonne aircraft even though they have larger carriers. The Russians have moved away from 40 tonne aircraft to 23 tonne aircraft.

Two J-21s will always be better than one J-20.

Let us agree to disgaree here then. It is strange that you think Su-33 is a interim solution , yet hail it as a frightening massive step.

From the above, I explained why the Su-33s are a massive step. It had nothing to do with technology, only experience.

Strange logic. PLAN could have bought the Su-33 any time they want. They picked J-15. Who are you to pretend you know better than them? ROFL

You don't get it. PLAN failed at buying the Su-33s. It wasn't PLAN who rejected the Su-33s, it was the Russians who canceled the deal.

2,35 actually. And more for the aircrafts. LOL

2.33 actually. Not 2.35.

Yes, aircraft are extra. $730 Million for 16, including development minus weapons.

Certainly less than 2,35 billions. LOL.

No chance. No how. You just got the hull. Everything else costs more money.

Heck you paid for the hull. We actually got the entire carrier for free. We only had to pay for the refurbishment.

And yes, they went to build up domestic industry and train domestic workers. Not Russian workers and their pocket. It is jingoisme just prevent you from aknowledging that. You got milked, Everyone knows that.

Who is going to fight the war? Your factory workers or your Navy without jets?

Gorky is late, but it will come with jets.

See the difference.

If this is called getting "milked," then I would wanna get milked every day.

What makes you think costs and efficiency in Russian shipbuilding is the same as the chinese. China is the second largest shipbuilder in world. What about Russia? ROFL. Just look the entire Gorky affair.

You haven't even built a large ship. The biggest ship you've built is a 8000 tonne Type 052D. The Russians, OTOH, have much larger ships in their name.

Please don't compare military to civilian technology. US doesn't even build many civilian ships, leaves it to the Chinese and Koreans instead.

I usually dont post some sources, but: China Signpost believes the J-15 "likely exceeds or matches the aerodynamic capabilities of virtually all fighter aircraft currently operated by regional militaries, with the exception of the U.S. F-22 Raptor",[17] alleging that the J-15 likely possesses a 10% superior thrust to weight ratio and a 25% lower wing loading than the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet. Even russian sources to downplay a chinese prototype. How low can you sunk? ROFL

This isn't from China Signpost, it is a western observation.

Even russian sources to downplay a chinese prototype. How low can you sunk? ROFL

You are saying this while signing agreements to buy Russian jets.

I love the part of more or less credible people. LOL.

Weren't they more correct than the Chinese defence minister, who supposedly said you aren't negotiating for Su-35s?

The part about unnamed PLA senior colonel is just bull. The engines were offered to PLA. They dont need to buy the aircrafts because of that. The fact that J-11Bs are equiped by Ws-10 is testimony of that. Whatever the reason they picked su-35 , it got nothing to do with the engines. Certainly not relevant to J-15 that we are discussing

The senior Colonel story did not come from a western source. It came from a Chinese paper.

The author's name is Minnie Chan.
Find her at [email protected] and tell her that.

Normally such articles in reputed newspapers carry more weight than using unnamed sources written by unnamed journalists.

 

[ice berg]

There are procedures to be followed. China is definitely not India. You don't have carrier experience.

What procedures? And despite all your talks of carrier experiences, you are the one without any AC ATM. Domestic ones are pushed to 2018.

Also, I did agree with your date. Didn't I tell you I read somewhere that the J-15 will be inducted in 2016? It fits right in with your 2015-2017. Does it not?

I am talking about full squadrons.

But by the time you have your aircraft achieve FOC and raise the first regiment, it will be 2020, maybe even more.

That will be 2015-2017. We will likely see FOC from 2014. Certainly way before 2020.

I am pretty sure you will agree to this now.



You didn't get the point. You are flight testing your J-15 and J-20 now. So, my point is if you have the J-20 flying, why do you need J-11B which is in production. You were the one who claimed, that your J-15 is flying now, so why would you need Su-33. Do you get the point now?

I never said that Su-33 couldnt be a backup plan or interim solution to begin with.That is however irrelevant when the domestic solution is maturing. We already agreed to this. Let us not going back in circles.

J-15 and J-20 seem to have similar flight timelines. J-11B is in production and the Su-33 can also be put into production fairly quickly. So you were trying to discredit production aircraft in favor of development aircraft. This was my point.

This is pure BS. PLAN is not gonna wait for Su-33 today! That train has gone. And su-33 is not in production. So it is not clear to me how I discredit a production aircraft. What part of the no orders from Russian navy and PLAN that you dont understand?

None of them will be on carriers. Hence, no major inductions this decade. You will induct the J-15 later this decade and then progress towards J-21 or more J-15s.

For the millionth time, J-15 will be inducted way before 2020. ROFL

That's the point. Don't kid yourself. Your J-15 is still far from fighting a war. A few touch and go flights don't mean anything.

Never claimed otherwise.

Su-27K is the Russian military version of the Su-33. Su-33 is the export name. You said the Su-33 isn't advanced, I pointed out the Russians can upgrade it for export. After all PLAN did negotiate for it.

Can and will and maybe. No orders. Period.

Let's just say that unit for unit, in certain roles the Su-33 is better, like air policing etc. In certain roles Mig-29K is better.

With 3 drop tanks, the Mig-29K can carry 6 missiles and have a range of 3200Km.

Source? What type of missiles? And I laugh at your ferry ranges. Your combat range is alot smaller.

With no drop tanks, the Su-33 can carry 8 missiles comfortably and have a range of 3000Km.

You see the difference. The Mig-29K can also carry all sorts of bombs and missiles too. Since they can take off with heavy loads. The Mig-29Ks also have the option of buddy refueling where the buddy can refuel a Mig-29K back to its full fuel capacity. The Su-33 cannot do the same.

Sigh, I am about to give up.... We are talking about J-15! not some 2 decades old Su-33. It is silly to assume that they are the same aircraft with the same capabilities. Did Russia have twin seated Su-33? We have seen twin seated J-15. See it with new eyes, with no bias.

Of course.



You are setting lower benchmarks for yourself then.



Experienced pilots will retire in a few years. Where will you train new trainees from?

Those aviation pilots on Liaoning will one day become air marshals and teachers. She is just the first step. And you are contradicting yourself.
On the one hand, you claimed J-15 will be inducted around 2020. on the other hand you are saying experienced pilots will retire in a few years.

I haven't see these. Regardless, it doesn't mean much.



Isn't it correct? You gave induction timeline as 2015-17. I gave regiment being raised by 2019-20. Very realistic.

2015-2017 is timeframe for regiment being raised.

I will repeat, where in this discussion did I say Liaoning will be used against India. The part you quoted only says we will get the time to prepare. It has nothing to do with Liaoning per se.

Explain what you meant by time to prepare then. After all you dont prepare unless you expect something is gonna be used against you. Simple logic.

Okay, let me explain. You have a carrier today. By the time you fly and train with operational aircraft, you will need atleast 5-10 years before you are ready for a fight. With the loss of the Su-33 deal, you would have lost this chance at least until 2015-17. Still you will need to have regiment level exercises in order to truly develop any kind of capability to operate a carrier.

So which is better, 12 Su-33s and 12 pilots training on Su-33s from 2013 onwards or 12 J-15s training from 2017 onwards?

Which is better. Having 12-Su-33 with Russian avionics and flight laws (that is if Russia are willing to sell small batches like that to PLAN in the first place. A BIG IF) from 2013 onwards and then having them switching to J-15 with chinese avionics and FBW. What the f. you think???? Once again you are assuming the russians are willing. The FACT that the deal fall through is a clear indication that they wanted to sell far more jets than what PLAN was willing to buy. An inferior export jet and a domestic one. What will you choose? Have no doubt whatsoever it will be inferior.

You get the point now? See what you have lost due to this delay? By the time you get your first proper trainee pilots, we will have two whole carriers minimum with veteran pilots. By the time you build a database for carrier operations, which will take at least 10 years, we will have already inducted our third large carrier with new aircraft.

You are the one comparing PLAN with IN regarding the carrier wing in the first place. I have said repeately that Liaoning is for training. Besides your AC 1 will be inducted around 2018. AC 2 around 2025( a big IF) It will be close to 2030 that you have to fully operational ACs. What will PLAN look like in that time? HA

At least now do you see what you lost with the Su-33? Or are you still going to remain stubborn regarding this?

Anyway the discussion was about J-20 as a carrier aircraft. You don't need it. You are better off with a smaller aircraft doing everything than a larger aircraft doing only one or two things while flying even lesser. Even the USN isn't gunning for 40 tonne aircraft. They are sticking with 30 tonne aircraft even though they have larger carriers. The Russians have moved away from 40 tonne aircraft to 23 tonne aircraft.

I trust the PLAN to know what is best for them. I never said anything about what is best. I said clearly that nothing can be ruled out. You are the one sounding bombastic about everything

Two J-21s will always be better than one J-20.

There is no J-21.. There are JXX that is yet to come. Period.

From the above, I explained why the Su-33s are a massive step. It had nothing to do with technology, only experience.

Chinese J-15 gives them more. A few years of delay isnt gonna kill chinese ACs. Better they do it right from the start than some silly competition with IN. PLAN is going US style all the way. I leave those silly IN vS PLAN discussions to you.

You don't get it. PLAN failed at buying the Su-33s. It wasn't PLAN who rejected the Su-33s, it was the Russians who canceled the deal.

Quote me where I said PLAN rejected Su-33.

2.33 actually. Not 2.35.

Yes, aircraft are extra. $730 Million for 16, including development minus weapons.

That is 3 billions then.

No chance. No how. You just got the hull. Everything else costs more money.

And you spend 3 billions even before you got the hull, so who you try to kid here? Not to mention Liaoning was commisioned in 2012. Look up what that means. The sensors and weapons and the whole pachage is there. Yes they need more J-15, but I never claimed otherwise.

Heck you paid for the hull. We actually got the entire carrier for free. We only had to pay for the refurbishment."

LOOOOOL. "Heck you paid for the hull. We actually got the entire carrier for free. We only had to pay for the refurbishment.
That is just a priceless statement that shows everything that is wrong with indian mentality. There is no free lunch. 3 billions is not a free lunch. You
were fooled. Period.

Who is going to fight the war? Your factory workers or your Navy without jets?

I am not aware China is in a war atm.

Gorky is late, but it will come with jets.

See the difference.

The difference is India got milked and end up with a refurbished 40000 ton AC, not new mind you, Russian aircraft, russian weapons, russian upgrades later..( 3 billions for an old AC) China will get their own 60000 ton AC with their own jets with their own weapons.And the work went to chinese workers, not russian workers. Yah, i see it loud and clear. ROFL

If this is called getting "milked," then I would wanna get milked every day.

That is why India is a milkcow and will remain so for the decades to come

You haven't even built a large ship. The biggest ship you've built is a 8000 tonne Type 052D. The Russians, OTOH, have much larger ships in their name.

Eh, you are showing your ignorance again. type 071 LPDs are larger than anything Russia has build in the past decades. They has to import from the french. ROFL. You do know that all Soviet aircraft carriers used to be built in Ukraine's Nikolayev, right? Where are your imaginary "larger ships in their name?"

Please don't compare military to civilian technology. US doesn't even build many civilian ships, leaves it to the Chinese and Koreans instead.

Face palm, how the hell you think China could afford such expansions in naval ship building without the domestic civilian shipyards? How you gonna build a 6000 ton FFG if you cant even build a civilian ro-ro ship? Koreans , the japanese and the chinese build their own war ships. Hell even today chinese shipyards build civilian AND military ships. Without a robust civilian shipbuilding they will never get that far . It is utter nonsens to claim there is no correlation between civilian and military shipbuldings. You can do better than this.

This isn't from China Signpost, it is a western observation.



You are saying this while signing agreements to buy Russian jets.



Weren't they more correct than the Chinese defence minister, who supposedly said you aren't negotiating for Su-35s?

What were his words?

The senior Colonel story did not come from a western source. It came from a Chinese paper.

The author's name is Minnie Chan.
Find her at [email protected] and tell her that.


Normally such articles in reputed newspapers carry more weight than using unnamed sources written by unnamed journalists.

I am not aware that a Hongkong based tabloid is the bible when it comes to chinese military affairs. You want me to post their stories of how J-15 is the best aircraft out there sans F-35? just say when.

 

[shiphone]

I thought this was J20 thread...shall we bring some J15 thread up to top from the other pages? or we should go to the 'CV16 Liaoning' thread... just a little suggestion.

----------------------
the production of J15 '领先试用' batch (something like the LSP batch) has begun...the assembly job has finished , it has been moved to Flight test station of SAC. and SAC' focus has switched to J15 ,J15S and J16 projects...the production of J11B(J11BS not included) has given its way to these jets production.

it is not any of the 8 J15 Prototypes(551-557 plus a Static test plane)...date: Nov 29 2012. source: CCTV news

it took 5 years(1998-2003) for J10 to enter into the PLA service since the maiden flight. in J11B case ,it was 4 years(2004-2008)...and the time for J10B has been around 4 years, we will see the SPs of J10B soon.

 

[GromHellscream]

J15 has already being suffered some delays behind time nodes.

But considering the poor history of 601 & SAC, it's the normal pace.

Another potential problem is that the current J15 might be not suitable for being operated on catapult.

It was said that some cracks were found on one of the prototypes after being ejected several times from land-based simulator.

 

[p2prada]

@ice berg

I am stopping our discussion. Regardless of India's successes and failures, regardless of China's success and failures, regardless of the time it will take, I still don't believe going for a STOBAR J-20 is a good idea simply because you have a STOBAR J-15 now.

I thought this was J20 thread...shall we bring some J15 thread up to top from the other pages? or we should go to the 'CV16 Liaoning' thread... just a little suggestion.

I suppose.

But the discussion started with the suggestion that the J-20 will see a naval variant against my point for going for smaller CATOBAR versions, what could be the J-21.

it took 5 years(1998-2003) for J10 to enter into the PLA service since the maiden flight. in J11B case ,it was 4 years(2004-2008)...and the time for J10B has been around 4 years, we will see the SPs of J10B soon.

I would still keep my finger crossed because sea faring aircraft are much harder to develop.

Even the SU learnt it the hard way even with hundreds of aircraft projects.

Even after you developed them, there is no guarantee they would succeed. At least the probability for success in carrier aviation is lesser than the land based counterparts.

 

[shiphone]

we got the T10K-03 in around 2001 ,and the Poject J15 began then after

more than 10 years has gone...we have no time to waste.

the same J15 LSP at the test flight station of SAC

--------------------------------------------------------
in our plan:

the J15 is a interim measures indeed

the 4th Generarion(5th Gen in your standard) Shipboard Fighter Project has started since 2007 along with the Project J20

we might(or should) be able to see this new bird this year...then we could go on this discussion with the real stuff whether good or not.

 

[Prometheus]

well the Russians are saying that the J20 is stolen from the US and Russia and they(chinese ) wouldnt ever be able to mass produce it !

 

[redragon]

That so called expert looks so stupid now

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

J20 is maturing very fast but i think china should invest heavily in engine technology and overdependence on russians will hamper it's future ambitions.Anyways can anyone here post the details of what kind of radar j20 intends to use.

 

[Armand2REP]

J20 is maturing very fast but i think china should invest heavily in engine technology and overdependence on russians will hamper it's future ambitions.Anyways can anyone here post the details of what kind of radar j20 intends to use.

Based on the cockpit mock-up, it is Zhuk-ME...

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Based on the cockpit mock-up, it is Zhuk-ME...

Are you trying to say that the j20 radar is similar to zhuk-me?Or you are supposing that it is a copy of zhukme then i might ask did can china get it's hands on zhuk-me?

 

[Armand2REP]

Are you trying to say that the j20 radar is similar to zhuk-me?Or you are supposing that it is a copy of zhukme then i might ask did can china get it's hands on zhuk-me?

China already has Zhuk-ME in the J-10.

 

[shiphone]

once again ,some idiot kept misleading others with full mouth of bull sh1t.......no shame , and never learn...
-------------------
Zhuk on J10? what a joke.......and I think I could educate you that the only Chinese origin made fighter equipted with a Zhuk Radar is the Export Variant J8-IIM

(the radar model was called Zhuk-8-2) from SAC ,which was displayed on Airshow Paris 1989...

and this KLJ-3 Radar(the above and below pix) was only fitted on the J10 PTs and first 3 batches of J10s (Note： J10A had an improved new radar after 2007)
so now, this model has been displayed in the China Air Force Museum in Beijing since 2009. it's safe to say that this KLJ-3 has close relationship with the EL/M 2032/35.

the prototype of KLJ-3 displayed publicly...

------------------------------

BTW ,no reliable source said that so called 4GEN cockpit mock-up displayed on Airshow China 2010 was J20's, even the owner of this mockup....LOL ...some idxxt should keep shut up before get the fact correct

 

[Broccoli]

The Aviationist » China's new stealth fighter's missile launch rails prove Beijing can improve U.S. technology

 

[huaxia rox]

in general j-20 gives an impression that the whole work is more focused on its manuverbility rather than more stealth techs with the debatable canard design and unstealth engine exhausts (at least so far) and actually the whole rear part of the craft imo..........how ever the new development indicates chinese are trying all the way to make it more stealth when flying or fightting (along with the already known elements like using DSI etc)........which is nice.....