J20 Stealth Fighter

MiG-29SMT

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2020
Messages
588
Likes
826
Country flag
Deino has literally written several books on Chinese Military aircraft and has been cataloging airframe, serial numbers and deployments of said aircraft for decades.

Minnie Chan on the other hand has written proven falsehoods repeatedly then claimed to have "secret sources". At least Andreas has physical pictorial evidence to prove his assertions. He has even been cited by US DOD reports.

Minnie Cham is much like you and @johnq . Making claims with no actual evidence then making up conspiracy theories to support them.

If J20's are still being produced with AL31's, please post just 1 pic of a newly produced J20 with Russian engines post 2019. Just 1 photo from 2020 or even late 2019 showing a fresh J20 with AL31's
I think you do not understand what is insider information.

RT’s Yulia Shapovalova has insider information so much she has video by RT and she is in front of a few Su-57.




that is at least true insider information
 

MiG-29SMT

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2020
Messages
588
Likes
826
Country flag
You're quoting articles that cite verbatim the same SCMP article by Minnie Chan. 😂

The info in that article is so outdated it's sad to see you continuously reverting to it because you can't find any evidence to back up your many false claims about J20.

That article says "it will take at least a year to test" the WS10C on the J20, but the engine has been flying on purpose biult prototype 2021 since 2017:


That pic isn't "propaganda released by the PLAAF" 😂, unless you're now claiming they own every amateur and pro photographer in the Chengdu region, including Jackson Bobo🤣

As to your claims of the PLAAF releasing "lies" about the J20, please quote a few for our review. You keep avoiding my requests for proof.

Why would the PLAAF and CCP be so desperate to convince amateur military watchers on Indian Forums that WS10C is flying on the J20? Your conspiracy theory doesn't make sense. It's obvious that the party and operator are trying to limit any and all useful info on the J20.

It's like saying the Indian MOD is sending bots to Chinese forums to release information about INS Arhihant.
1610862749596.png


that is type 30 on Su-57, why I know or people know is not ready for serial production well true insider information says that


if you watch the video you have at minute 16 the designer of Su-57 says it and later Evgenyi Marchuhkov says T-30 is the best 5th generation engine now.


You picture does not prove what you claim; a single aircraft does no prove anything such as series production, it only proves one model has WS-10
 

J20!

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2011
Messages
2,619
Likes
1,247
Country flag
Aircraft are serialed, have ID numbers, show 20 J-20s with different numbers flying togather with WS-10s in airshows.


The J-20s max number you will see togather in pictures are 7-8 aircraft.
Serialed aircraft are around 20-30 aircraft, this is even known in Forums like Sinodefence.

In videos you will also see 7 to 9 fighters at the most.

The article was by Global times, chinas ultranationalistic mouth piece propaganda outlet, quoting even a communist outlet.


About things like weight or speed you can see it in airshows.

There are videos of Su-57 and F-22 doing maneouvres that requiere excess in thrust to weight ratio and light wing loading, this tell you with Al-31 pictures the likely weight.

3D parts while save money and weight, in some parts are not a maginc wonders, you can expect weight saving in the region of 700 kg at the most, since aircraft are not toys, they are stuffed with avionics, the bulkheads and wing spars requiere same physics in fighter aircraft regardless is J-20 or Su-57.

So an empty weight of 19000-20000 kg can be expected.

In china bots land reality and physics do not count.

In fact if J-20 was ultralight you could see it in aircraft like ARJ-21 or J-10 that are not sold internationally reflecting inferior performance or regularly intercepted by Japanese, Korean or Taiwanese fighters showing machines with similar performance to its peers.

Same in aviadarts in Russia where J-10s or JH-7 are seen


Conclusion China at the most has similar technologies to the USA, Russia or Europe.


So a similar weight is expected, the admission of Global times of Al-31 being used is easily proven by the fact serialed aircraft show Al-31 engines
1. Last years Zhuhai Airshow was canceled. The last Airshow China the J20 participated in was 2018, where the thrust vector img WS10B equipped J10b prototype performed for the first time.

2. It's you and @johnq who have been claiming that no serial production J20's are equipped with WS10C. Where is your proof mate?

IMG_20210117_080430.jpg


IMG_20210117_080434.jpg


Those new production J20's equipped with WS10C's are being operationalized as can be seen above. And as you can see, the one above is captured by amateur photographers in Chengdu.

But if you believe its "PLAAF propaganda" please prove it instead of selling us more conspiracy theories about how the CCP is hiring Germans and Japanese military watchers to spread its evil "propaganda" to make Indians Dhotti shiver on internet forums. WHat would that even achieve? Are you all secretly high ranking officers in the IAF?
 

J20!

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2011
Messages
2,619
Likes
1,247
Country flag
I think you do not understand what is insider information.

RT’s Yulia Shapovalova has insider information so much she has video by RT and she is in front of a few Su-57.




that is at least true insider information
RT is a Russian govt affiliated news network. OFcourse that's insider information. Andreas is an independent analyst, I never said he had insider information. Minnie Chan claims to have insider information despite not being in any way affiliated with the Chinese military or CCP. See the difference?

And if Andreas was affiliated with the CCP or PLAAF, you would claim that he is posting "propaganda" all over again. Stop making excuses.

You are starting to remind me of certain posters here back in 2011 who were claiming the first J20 prototype was a mock-up that couldn't fly. Then they said it was a 4th gen plane covered up with facets so it wasn't really a stealth jet. Then they claimed it didn't have weapons bays.

I'm used to dealing with naysayers mate. Time will vindicate my position even further because the evidence clearly shows that Chengdu has transitioned the J20 from the AL31 to the WS10C.

But if you have a pic of a J20 produced after 2019 flying with AL31's please share and stop making excuses
 

MiG-29SMT

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2020
Messages
588
Likes
826
Country flag
1. Last years Zhuhai Airshow was canceled. The last Airshow China the J20 participated in was 2018, where the thrust vector img WS10B equipped J10b prototype performed for the first time.

2. It's you and @johnq who have been claiming that no serial production J20's are equipped with WS10C. Where is your proof mate?

View attachment 74003

View attachment 74004

Those new production J20's equipped with WS10C's are being operationalized as can be seen above. And as you can see, the one above is captured by amateur photographers in Chengdu.

But if you believe its "PLAAF propaganda" please prove it instead of selling us more conspiracy theories about how the CCP is hiring Germans and Japanese military watchers to spread its evil "propaganda" to make Indians Dhotti shiver on internet forums. WHat would that even achieve? Are you all secretly high ranking officers in the IAF?
This is also the first time the PLA Air Force has confirmed that a J-20 equipped with a domestically made engine has entered service, Passion News, a media outlet under k618.cn, a news portal run by the Communist Youth League of China Central Committee, reported on Friday.

Designed with stealth capability, the WS-10C engines provide more powerful thrust than the Russian engines previously used on the J-20, since the Chinese engines use full authority digital engine control technology and improved afterburners, the Passion News report said.


Do you know a J-20 is singular, got it? see it is global times and from China it has cn, Russian have ru got it?


A single model is not serial, and do you understand it says than the Russian engines previously used on the J-20, is plural got it ? all previous J-20 use Al-31.
see the engines are Al-31 which are 1990s tech

1610864867165.png



see that is Su-57 with 2 Type 30 engines but still in tests.
 

MiG-29SMT

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2020
Messages
588
Likes
826
Country flag
1. Last years Zhuhai Airshow was canceled. The last Airshow China the J20 participated in was 2018, where the thrust vector img WS10B equipped J10b prototype performed for the first time.

2. It's you and @johnq who have been claiming that no serial production J20's are equipped with WS10C. Where is your proof mate?

View attachment 74003

View attachment 74004

Those new production J20's equipped with WS10C's are being operationalized as can be seen above. And as you can see, the one above is captured by amateur photographers in Chengdu.

But if you believe its "PLAAF propaganda" please prove it instead of selling us more conspiracy theories about how the CCP is hiring Germans and Japanese military watchers to spread its evil "propaganda" to make Indians Dhotti shiver on internet forums. WHat would that even achieve? Are you all secretly high ranking officers in the IAF?
the best you have in forums where chinese people post are pictures, most what is written there is crap, East Asians tend to exagerate claims and fantasize a lot.


I will show you the Korean fighter see the its bulkheads, their area is bigger thus weight is higher than equivalent aircraft like Eurofighter

1610866364183.png


1610866489960.png


You claimed we do know the exact weight of J-20, that is true but an estimate is 20,000kg just by logic of F-22 empty weight

1610866886730.png


you can see F-5s built in Iran are light just by looking at the bulkheads

1610867006740.png


look at the MiG-29 their bulkheads are not as big; the Korean aircraft should be heavier and same is J-31, so the animal of J-20 is a really heavy fighter at empty weigh regardless of the fantasies written in chinese forums

just compare the bulkheads of MiG-23
1610867171121.png


with F-35
1610867250029.png


it is obvious F-35 is heavier

J-20 is heavy but in Chinese forums they make it ultraligh :) that is what you can see with many chinese posting here
 

Knowitall

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2019
Messages
3,013
Likes
10,003
Country flag
the best you have in forums where chinese people post are pictures, most what is written there is crap, East Asians tend to exagerate claims and fantasize a lot.


I will show you the Korean fighter see the its bulkheads, their area is bigger thus weight is higher than equivalent aircraft like Eurofighter

View attachment 74006

View attachment 74007

You claimed we do know the exact weight of J-20, that is true but an estimate is 20,000kg just by logic of F-22 empty weight

View attachment 74008

you can see F-5s built in Iran are light just by looking at the bulkheads

View attachment 74009

look at the MiG-29 their bulkheads are not as big; the Korean aircraft should be heavier and same is J-31, so the animal of J-20 is a really heavy fighter at empty weigh regardless of the fantasies written in chinese forums

just compare the bulkheads of MiG-23
View attachment 74010

with F-35
View attachment 74011

it is obvious F-35 is heavier

J-20 is heavy but in Chinese forums they make it ultraligh :) that is what you can see with many chinese posting here
You're constant targeting of Asians and east Asians is very tiring.

Stick to the topic at hand and keep the discussions limited to them only.

Or else we too have a ton of things to tell about Mexicans and the west in general. Keep your shitty superiority complex towards yourself only.
 

J20!

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2011
Messages
2,619
Likes
1,247
Country flag
View attachment 74002

that is type 30 on Su-57, why I know or people know is not ready for serial production well true insider information says that


if you watch the video you have at minute 16 the designer of Su-57 says it and later Evgenyi Marchuhkov says T-30 is the best 5th generation engine now.


You picture does not prove what you claim; a single aircraft does no prove anything such as series production, it only proves one model has WS-10
This is also the first time the PLA Air Force has confirmed that a J-20 equipped with a domestically made engine has entered service, Passion News, a media outlet under k618.cn, a news portal run by the Communist Youth League of China Central Committee, reported on Friday.

Designed with stealth capability, the WS-10C engines provide more powerful thrust than the Russian engines previously used on the J-20, since the Chinese engines use full authority digital engine control technology and improved afterburners, the Passion News report said.


Do you know a J-20 is singular, got it? see it is global times and from China it has cn, Russian have ru got it?

A single model is not serial, and do you understand it says than the Russian engines previously used on the J-20, is plural got it ? all previous J-20 use Al-31.
see the engines are Al-31 which are 1990s tech

View attachment 74005


see that is Su-57 with 2 Type 30 engines but still in tests.
No Su57s are in service with type 30 engines. That's a prototype testing the engine.

This is J20 prototype 2021 clearly marked which was the first airframe fitted with WS10C for testing in 2017, much like the SU57 prototype.

This pic is date Jan 2019 I've already posted its first outings in 2017 above.

Jan 2018 pic of prototype 2021


This pic is dated November 2019 showing newly produced J20 airframes with WS10C leaving the assembly line



You claim there is only one prototype but we have many pics of production airframes at Chengdu with Ws10c dating from September 2019 till date. The first below pictures 2 freshly produced, WS10C equipped J20's in 1 pic






Please note that none of the airframes above are prototype 2021, which has since been painted but still has the 2021 bort number marked.

Please show us these AL31 equipped J20s that are still being produced post 2019 sir or stop wasting my time.
 
Last edited:

J20!

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2011
Messages
2,619
Likes
1,247
Country flag
the best you have in forums where chinese people post are pictures, most what is written there is crap, East Asians tend to exagerate claims and fantasize a lot.


I will show you the Korean fighter see the its bulkheads, their area is bigger thus weight is higher than equivalent aircraft like Eurofighter

View attachment 74006

View attachment 74007

You claimed we do know the exact weight of J-20, that is true but an estimate is 20,000kg just by logic of F-22 empty weight

View attachment 74008

you can see F-5s built in Iran are light just by looking at the bulkheads

View attachment 74009

look at the MiG-29 their bulkheads are not as big; the Korean aircraft should be heavier and same is J-31, so the animal of J-20 is a really heavy fighter at empty weigh regardless of the fantasies written in chinese forums

just compare the bulkheads of MiG-23
View attachment 74010

with F-35
View attachment 74011

it is obvious F-35 is heavier

J-20 is heavy but in Chinese forums they make it ultraligh :) that is what you can see with many chinese posting here
So not only have you seen the J20's bulkheads during construction, but you can also tell which materials were used in its construction.

Please sir, show us. You're making guesses based on estimations vis a vis other aircraft then telling us to believe that your estimations are the gospel truth.

The material science that went into F5 builds cannot be used to guesstimate the weight of the F35.

I have never made any claims as to the J20's empty weight because I have not seen any credible information to that effect.

If you have, please share.
 

MiG-29SMT

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2020
Messages
588
Likes
826
Country flag
you are applying magic thinking, the periodic table does not lie.

Aerospace material are based upon the chemical properties displayed by the periodic table

The lightest elements used in aerospace are carbon, Lithium and Aluminum these are used because they are abundant, cheap and Lithium and Aluminium are light metals.

titanium is still consider a transition metal but has a heavier molar weight.

If you use your periodic table you will understand China does not use any material that is not on the periodic table and chemical compounds and alloys have a higher molar weight.

1610881912142.png



So while you claim I can not know the materials you are pretty fantasizing because Aluminum is widely used as well as carbon composites due to their lower molar weight

I highly recommend you read this article'


Forty years ago, aluminum dominated the aerospace industry. As the new kid on the block, it was considered to be lightweight, inexpensive, and state-of-the-art. In fact, as much as 70% of an aircraft was once made of aluminum. Other new materials such as composites and alloys were also used, including titanium, graphite, and fiberglass, but only in very small quantities – 3% here and 7% there. Readily available, aluminum was used everywhere from the fuselage to main engine components.

Times have changed. A typical jet built today is as little as 20% pure aluminum. Most of the non-critical structural material – paneling and aesthetic interiors – now consist of even lighter-weight carbon fiber reinforced polymers (CFRPs) and honeycomb materials. Meanwhile, for engine parts and critical components, there is a simultaneous push for lower weight and higher temperature resistance for better fuel efficiency, bringing new or previously impractical-to-machine metals into the aerospace material m
ix.


To meet these temperature demands, heat-resistant super alloys (HRSAs), including titanium alloys, nickel alloys, and some nonmetal composite materials such as ceramics, are now being brought into the material equation. These materials tend to be more difficult to machine than traditional aluminum, historically meaning shorter tool life and less process security.

Similar to nickel alloy in its heat-resisting properties, TiAl retains strength and corrosion resistance in temperatures up to 1,112°F (600°C). But TiAl is more easily machined, exhibiting similar machinability characteristics to alpha-beta titanium, such as Ti6Al4V. Perhaps more importantly, TiAl has the potential to improve the thrust-to-weight ratio in aircraft engines because it’s only half the weight of nickel alloys. Case in point, both low-pressure turbine blades and high-pressure compressor blades, traditionally made of dense Ni-based super alloys are now being machined from TiAl-based alloys. General Electric was a pioneer in this development and uses TiAl low-pressure turbine blades on its GEnx engine, the first large-scale use of this material on a commercial jet engine – in this case in the Boeing 787 Dreamliner.

Another re-introduction of aluminum to aerospace is found in weight-saving Al-Li, specifically designed to improve properties of 7050 and 7075 aluminum. Overall, the addition of lithium strengthens aluminum at a lower density and weight, two catalysts of the aerospace material evolution. Al-Li alloys’ high strength, low density, high stiffness, damage tolerance, corrosion resistance, and weld-friendly nature make it a better choice than traditional aluminums in commercial jetliner airframes. Airbus is currently using AA2050. Meanwhile, Alcoa is using AA2090 T83 and 2099 T8E67. The alloy can also be found in the fuel and oxidizer tanks in the SpaceX Falcon 9 launch vehicle, and is used extensively in NASA rocket and shuttle projects.
While CFRPs represent the lion’s share of composite material in both cabin and functional components, and honeycomb materials provide effective and lightweight internal structural components, next-generation materials include ceramic-matrix composites (CMCs), which are emerging in practical use after decades of testing. CMCs are comprised of a ceramic matrix reinforced by a refractory fiber, such as silicon carbide (SiC) fiber. They offer low density/weight, high hardness, and most importantly, superior thermal and chemical resistance. Like CFRPs, they can be molded to certain shapes without any extra machining, making them ideal for internal aerospace engine components, exhaust systems, and other “hot-zone” structures – even replacing the latest in HRSA metals listed earlier.





In few words the materials used on J-20 will not change much in fact they will try to repeat the ones used in F-22 or Su-27 or Su-57 therefore your fantasy has no bases in science but on fantasies and magic thinking of forumlore
 
Last edited:

rockdog

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2010
Messages
1,058
Likes
542
Country flag
the best you have in forums where chinese people post are pictures, most what is written there is crap, East Asians tend to exagerate claims and fantasize a lot.
We tried a lot to debate based on materials, data, pictures, not bring stereotype on racial like "East Asians tend to exagerate ..."

Even you said so, i tried not to judge what you said those crap because you got high by those pills bought from Mexiccan cartels.
 

MiG-29SMT

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2020
Messages
588
Likes
826
Country flag
Cool off gents...

It's safe to say all that needs to be said on the topic has been posted already. Let's agree to disagree.

Time will tell who was right sooner or later.

Lets move on. 🙏
my sincere admiration for your peace and loving attitude, you have shown me a good Spirit and a humble attitude, something which is needed is Forums, get our humanity which is common in all human beings.


I will recap what i said, I said using science, basic chemestry, the size of the bulkheads, you can see why all stealth aircraft are heavier than their 4th generation aircraft.

Example F-16 is lighter than F-35, by being bigger F-35 needs a more powerful engine.

Same F-22, the weapons bays, create bigger bulkheads so F-15 is lighter than F-22 by the staggering 7000 kg difference in empty weight.

In the case of Su-57 and Su-27, the inlet ducts are not so different and the pancake area which is the cambered fuselage rear extension that is between the engines is deeper and thicker in Su-57 than in Su-27 allowing for the creation of internal weapons bays.

This allowed for a 3500 empty weight difference between Su-57 and Su-27, this solution is highly critized by saying Su-57 is not stealthy, however it uses a inlet duct radar blocker, the main objective was weight reduction.

J-20 is not different since aluminium and titanium alongside Carbon are the lightest materials used in Aeronautics, Aluminium has an atomic number of 13 and Carbon is 6th lithium is 3, obviously are the lightest elements which have metalic properties or can be used in the whole nature.

Besides Carbon and aluminium are highly abundant which means they are cheap to get.

5th generation aircraft continue using them, however carbon polymers composites use more carbon fibers example B-787 or Su-57, then there is a weight reduction and 3D manufacturing methods allow for less material wasted, but the end result is heavier weight because the bulkheads are bigger and these aircraft use internal weapons bays and more internal fuel tanks, so F-35 is an aircraft that weighs as an F-15.

Yes the lightest 5th generation fighter in the 1970s would had been considered a heavy fighter, the f135 is equal to 2 RD-33 engines in thrust!

So what you can say about J-20 since China can not use lighter metals Aluminium or Lithium or Carbon fibers are the lightest element possibly used, then J-20 follows the same trend.

J-20 has huge bulkheads a 17000 kg empty weight as suggested in many Chinese defence forums is basically out of reality.

19000 kg range is to be honest the lightest weight possible since Su-57 is in that range but Su-57 is relatively speaking thinner than J-20.

Fuselage blending is more evident in Su-57 and F-22 for several reasons.

J-20 has fuselage camber and wing fuselage blending, but so Su-57 and F-22.

F-22 has a canopy position that allows for a wing set closer to a midwing and the 2D nozzles, tail booms and tailplanes make for better fuselage wing blending.
1610921609728.png


The vertical distance between the canopy and intake lips is higher in F-22 allowing for better fuselage wing blending
1610921577982.png


Su-57 is even more drastic, since it repeats F-14 and Su-57 wing fuselage blending with a cambered centered flat fuselage between both engines and a flatter cambered nose forebody canopy.
1610921496679.png

1610921527711.png

regardles what people say in forums science tells you there are compromises done in J-20.

The canards were located on a high wing position but so it was the delta wing that is in a high wing position with tiny tail booms, since it has huge intake bumps a bigger and higher perched canopy was not a good solution, so the intakes has canards and wings on top of the fuselage but this forced dihedral in the canards and anhedral in the wings to improve vortex formation.


The need for ventral fins that create diffration patterns and increase the number of radar reflecting surfaces damaged its stealth treatment, same was the canard dihedral which by being control surfaces increase deflection thus increasing radar bonces back to the radar emmiter.

Generally speaking J-20 has an F-22 frontal treatment but its canards and ventral fins show inferior stealth treatment, this was done to increase pitch movement since canards exhibit higher pitch up tendency increasing instattaneous turn rates.

So agility technically is higher in J-20 than in F-22, but F-22 uses Thrust vectoring control, increasing agility in F-22.



Science will allow you to understand J-20, the ventral fins allow for better lateral stability in yaw and roll relatively than F-22 huge vertical tails.


However that affect stealth.

Su-57 uses thrust vectoring instead of ventral vertical fins reducing the size of the aerodynamic control surfaces.


So in general terms the longer intake ducts of J-20 make for a larger fuselage than F-22 more curved S ducts, but allow for a better finess ratio, making it a better aircraft technically for supersonic flight.
 
Last edited:

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top