J20 Stealth Fighter

[J20!]

That article is from 2020 and it clearly states that the J-20 is still using AL-31 engines. This means that you were wrong when you stated that the 2019 J-20 used the WS-10.

Dude. Your author is dead wrong as many western analysts usually are. No. 1, the first J20 sporting WS10 was first spotted in 2017, not "initial production" versions as your author says.

Anyone can post an article. Show me pictures of new build J20s flying with AL31 turbo fans.

We first saw prototype 2021 testing WS10Cs in 2017 then production airframe started rolling out by 2019. There is plenty pictorial evidence to support this. Show me your evidence.

This article is also from 2020:

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...r-may-arrive-soon-heres-what-it-could-include

Imagery of a J-20A carrying the serial ‘2021’ that surfaced in September 2017 also revealed new serrated engine nozzles for the first time. This confirmed that J-20 production had shifted to include indigenous WS-10C engines built by Shenyang Liming. These featured sawtooth exhaust feathers to help reduce the aircraft’s rear hemisphere radar cross-section (RCS). These new engines delivered a much-needed increase in thrust to around 147 kN (33,070 lbs). Reports at that time suggested that these engines featured thrust vectoring, but this was never confirmed.

CHINESE INTERNET
A J-20A with WS-10C engines.
Images that were released in November 2019 showed J-20s in yellow primer, with the same sawtooth nozzles. These were claimed to be evidence of the J-20B by Chinese media. However, these aircraft were actually additional J-20As with standard WS-10C engines. These engines were also incorrectly identified as WS-10Bs, as that engine is mainly intended for the latest production batch J-10Cs and J-16s and lacks the sawtooth nozzles.

 

[johnq]

Sorry, but you are wrong. The article you posted above is again using images as proof, but that is worthless as any concrete form of evidence. If the WS-10 were really successful, PLAAF would've switched to it a long time ago. Instead even Chinese propaganda outlets are now revealing that the J-20 is still using Russian AL-31 engines because the WS-10 only lasts 30 hours before needing maintenance:

80 Years From Invention, China Is Struggling With Jet Engines

The jet engine has a long and storied history. Its development occurred spontaneously amongst several unrelated groups in the early 20th Century. Frank Whittle submitted a UK patent on a design in …

hackaday.com

Early revisions of the resulting WS-10 engine have fallen well short of design goals which aimed to match the Su-27’s AL-31 engine on thrust output and reliability. Overhauls were required every 30 hours, versus 400 hours for the Russian benchmark. Anecdotal evidence suggests the WS-10 also takes longer to produce thrust.

PLAAF regularly releases propaganda photographs for domestic consumption in order to brainwash Chinese people. Those of us who know this don't take any photographs or other data released by CCP/PLAAF at face value; and especially not use it for any kind of evidence.
But feel free to believe what you want. About Rick Joe: He has made the same false statements about WS-10 in the article posted above.
The fact is that the WS-10 is simply too unreliable to use on operational aircraft, so the PLAAF is still using AL-31. Rest is speculation based on PLAAF propaganda pictures by over-excited "China watchers." Feel free to believe the nonsense spouted by CCP/PLAAF bots, but if the WS-10 was really a success, PLAAF would have ditched the Russian engines long ago. Instead we are seeing newer articles by even Chinese outlets (go back and read the rest of the thread) about how the PLAAF "will ditch" the Russian engine after it is replaced by WS-10C. One article said that it will take at least another year (probably more) of testing WS-10C before it can be used. It is much more likely that the PLAAF is using the appearance of WS-10C engines as leverage to get better technology engines from Russia, when the reality is that WS-10C is just as unreliable as previous WS-10 versions (30 hours before needing maintenance). I know what to look for in CCP/PLAAF propaganda, so I can tell when they are feeding propaganda (photographic or otherwise) to dumb western journalists. Then the "China watcher" western journalists can speculate on the photographs and figure out their answers about the WS-10, J-20 or otherwise, that makes them feel really smart. But the reality remains that it is all just speculation based on propaganda images released by the PLAAF, and doesn't constitute proof of any kind. Chinese fanboys eat it up though, and so can you.

 

[J20!]

Sorry, but you are wrong. The article you posted above is again using images as proof, but that is worthless as any concrete form of evidence. If the WS-10 were really successful, PLAAF would've switched to it a long time ago. Instead even Chinese propaganda outlets are now revealing that the J-20 is still using Russian AL-31 engines because the WS-10 only lasts 30 hours before needing maintenance:

80 Years From Invention, China Is Struggling With Jet Engines

The jet engine has a long and storied history. Its development occurred spontaneously amongst several unrelated groups in the early 20th Century. Frank Whittle submitted a UK patent on a design in …

hackaday.com

PLAAF regularly releases propaganda photographs for domestic consumption in order to brainwash Chinese people. Those of us who know this don't take any photographs or other data released by CCP/PLAAF at face value; and especially not use it for any kind of evidence.
But feel free to believe what you want. About Rick Joe: He has made the same false statements about WS-10 in the article posted above.
The fact is that the WS-10 is simply too unreliable to use on operational aircraft, so the PLAAF is still using AL-31. Rest is speculation based on PLAAF propaganda pictures by over-excited "China watchers." Feel free to believe the nonsense spouted by CCP/PLAAF bots, but if the WS-10 was really a success, PLAAF would have ditched the Russian engines long ago. Instead we are seeing newer articles by even Chinese outlets (go back and read the rest of the thread) about how the PLAAF "will ditch" the Russian engine after it is replaced by WS-10C. One article said that it will take at least another year (probably more) of testing WS-10C before it can be used. It is much more likely that the PLAAF is using the appearance of WS-10C engines as leverage to get better technology engines from Russia. I know what to look for in CCP/PLAAF propaganda, so I can tell when they are feeding propaganda (photographic or otherwise) to dumb western journalists. Then the "China watcher" western journalists can speculate on the photographs and figure out their answers about the WS-10, J-20 or otherwise, that makes them feel really smart. But the reality remains that it is all just speculation based on propaganda images released by the PLAAF, and doesn't constitute proof of any kind. Chinese fanboys eat it up though, and so can you.

I'm assuming that long post means you have 0 proof for your claims.

I have many many many images of new production J20s with WS10C engines.

Plus, WS10A' s have been flying on every production J11B since batch 2, ie more than 200 J11B's flying on WS10A.

Every J16 photographed flies on WS10B.

All new J10Cs have been flying with WS10B since last year.

I've got the receipts. You are literally asking Every1 just to take your word for it. How is your word worth more than amateur and pro pics taken of the aircraft named above?

Just admit that you have no evidence for your claims

 

[johnq]

It is not just me. There are other members like @MiG-29SMT who have been watching J-20 for a long time, and they will tell you the same thing. Feel free to not believe me and you can put me on your ignore list. Just go back and read the rest of the thread (or at least the last 10 pages or so). I will state once again: Propaganda images/data leaked by the CCP/PLAAF or speculation about them does not constitute proof.
It is a fact that the PLAAF is still using Russian engines on its operational aircraft, which means that Chinese engines so far have been a failure.

 

[J20!]

It is not just me. There are other members like @MiG-29SMT who have been watching J-20 for a long time, and they will tell you the same thing. Feel free to not believe me and you can put me on your ignore list. Just go back and read the rest of the thread (or at least the last 10 pages or so). I will state once again: Propaganda images/data leaked by the CCP/PLAAF or speculation about them does not constitute proof.

That is a weak argument. I'll challenge you or @MiG-29SMT to show me any new production J20 since 2019 that's flying with AL31's.

You keep saying CCP/PLAAF propaganda but you're unable to show me any data released by the PLAAF regarding the J20. I can guarantee you that I've followed the J20 longer than either of you and have seen none. But if you insist, please show us this data sent out by the evil Chinese govt about the J20. Operational ceiling, combat radius, climb rate, range of its radar, anything. Tell us about this propaganda you keep referring to.

Facts don't care about your feelings.

 

[johnq]

LOL, pasting CCP propaganda images to forums does not constitute evidence.

One can take the dry thrust of the AL-31 as a starting point along with the empty weight of the J-20 to figure out that the J-20 is 3000kg to 4000kg too heavy for its engines, even compared to a 1970s era SU-27.

One can also deduce that the WS-10 has been a failure since the PLAAF is still using Russian AL-31 engines on its operational aircraft.

There are also leaks about the failures of the WS-10 engine from China. That is where the articles that show that WS-10 breaks down after 30 hours come from.

But you seem to have bought the PLAAF's official propaganda story, even after the PLAAF admitted that it is still using AL-31 on J-20 (obviously because of its failure with WS-10) so I will ignore you from now on.

 

[J20!]

One can take the dry thrust of the AL-31 as a starting point along with the empty weight of the J-20 to figure out that the J-20 is 3000kg to 4000kg too heavy for its engines, even compared to a 1970s era SU-27.

So now you can weigh the J20 with your eyes? How do you know the empty weight of the J20? Do you have the figures from the manufacturer or operator?

 

[J20!]

And it is a fact that the PLAAF still uses Russian engines on all its operational aircraft; the rest is propaganda created to brainwash Chinese people. Those of us who know what to look for can tell the difference.

This is the problem with making assumptions and believing them.

http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.com/p/gallery-i.html?m=1

Please look through this list of J11B and J16 serial numbers and corresponding images and tell me whether they are using WS10's or AL31 turbofans.

At this point I doubt you can tell the difference between the 2 engines, but all J11B's since batch 2 use WS10A's and every J16 in operation uses WS10B's. That's more than 300 operational airframes flying with Ws10 Variants in the PLAAF and PLANAF.

And before you claim its all propaganda, the JASDF, USAF and USN have all pictured these airframes flying with WS10 variants on numerous interceptions.

Credit to huitong for mapping every pictured serial number and detailing them on his site.

You keep underestimating the work done by Chinese military watchers but we've been following PLA developments for decades and have the evidence to back it up.

 

[J20!]

LOL, pasting CCP propaganda images to forums does not constitute evidence.

One can take the dry thrust of the AL-31 as a starting point along with the empty weight of the J-20 to figure out that the J-20 is 3000kg to 4000kg too heavy for its engines, even compared to a 1970s era SU-27.

One can also deduce that the WS-10 has been a failure since the PLAAF is still using Russian AL-31 engines on its operational aircraft.

There are also leaks about the failures of the WS-10 engine from China. That is where the articles that show that WS-10 breaks down after 30 hours come from.

But you seem to have bought the PLAAF's official propaganda story, even after the PLAAF admitted that it is still using AL-31 on J-20 (obviously because of its failure with WS-10) so I will ignore you from now on.

Please show us this admission by the PLAAF that "the PLAAF admitted that it is still using AL-31 on J-20".

You keep making things up and failing to produce evidence @johnq ... Show us the evidence.

 

[johnq]

China’s J-20B Stealth Jet, Upgraded With Thrust Vector Controls, Reportedly Enters Mass Production

If true, the decision to install thrust-vectoring on the J-20B hints at the intended role of the Chinese stealth fighter.

www.forbes.com

However, the Post claims the J-20B will rely on Saturn AL-31F M2 turbofans imported from Russia rather than higher-thrust domestic WS-15 engines China is still struggling to refine for production.

No WS-10. Because it is not reliable enough.

 

[J20!]

China’s J-20B Stealth Jet, Upgraded With Thrust Vector Controls, Reportedly Enters Mass Production

If true, the decision to install thrust-vectoring on the J-20B hints at the intended role of the Chinese stealth fighter.

www.forbes.com

No WS-10. Because it is not reliable enough.

1. It's funny that you quoted an article citing Minnie Chan and claiming it to be gospel. Proves how much you know about the Chinese defence industry. In her latest article she claims J20 is using a new engine called WS25 according to her "sources"

How do you believe Minnie Chan's sources over actual pictures you can see with your own eyes?

2. It's funnier that you did not include the update to that article:

"
Updated July 14

Andreas Rupprecht, an expert on Chinese military aviation, contacted me on Twitter to express his skepticism regarding the South China Morning Post’s report regarding use of Russian engines with thrust-vector controls.

According to him, open source evidence points to domestic WS-10C turbofan engines being used in new production J-20s. The WS-10C has improved thrust, has a stealthier serrated nozzle, and presumably is more reliable than earlier WS-10 turbofans. However, it is not designed for thrust-vector control, unlike the WS-10B-3 TVC engine demonstrated on a J-10 fighter in 2018."

Dude, just admit you have no real evidence. You have made so many claims on this thread but you're still unable to prove any of it.

 

[johnq]

"open source" once again indicates the use of PLAAF photographs being used by a "China follower" to make his own conclusions, and is meaningless. There is a good probability that the correction was issued by a guy directly or indirectly on CCP payroll at the behest of the PLAAF. Money talks, BS walks. And the Chinese Communist Party and the PLAAF are the masters of BS, along with their CCP bot pets.

China's J-20 fighter aircraft will stop using Russian engine - Defence View

Chinese social media have been talking about replacing the engine currently installed on the new generation of J-20 fighters for several days. will replace it with a modernized motor of its own production. “The Chinese WS-10C engine, a modified version of the WS-10 engine, is not inferior to the...

defenceview.in

But these production J-20s will continue to be powered by Russian engines because, according to an insider, the WS-10C will take at least a year to test.

This clearly indicates that the WS-10C will take at least a year to test before it can be used on the J-20, which means that the J-20 is still flying with Russian AL-31 engines. Multiple reports state that the J-20 used the WS-10 at some point early on. Now if the WS-10 was really so reliable, it would have become the permanent engine. Instead, the a decade later we hear reports that the J-20 "will" replace the Russian engine with a Chinese one. Will, will, will. People who have followed the PLAAF for over a decade "will" see a pattern emerging. A decade ago similar reports came out that the WS-10 "will be" replacing the Russian AL-31, because it is so much more powerful. So were they lying then, or are they lying now? It turned out the WS-10 only lasted for about 30 hours before needing to be replaced, so was too unreliable to be used on operational aircraft, so PLAAF continued to use Russian AL-31 engines right up to now.

It is much more likely that the PLAAF "will" continue to lie about having an operational WS-10C ready, just like it lied that it "will" have a WS-15 ready for the J-20, right before the WS-15 exploded. It is also much more likely that the PLAAF is using the appearance of WS-10C engines as leverage to get better technology engines from Russia, when the reality is that WS-10C is just as unreliable as previous WS-10 versions (30 hours before needing maintenance).

 

[johnq]

Only brainwashed CCP bots rely on photoshopped images of the J-20 leaked by the PLAAF, or trust PLAAF's tall claims about the J-20, when the PLAAF has been repeatedly caught lying and hiding the truth in the past.

 

[MiG-29SMT]

That is a weak argument. I'll challenge you or @MiG-29SMT to show me any new production J20 since 2019 that's flying with AL31's.

You keep saying CCP/PLAAF propaganda but you're unable to show me any data released by the PLAAF regarding the J20. I can guarantee you that I've followed the J20 longer than either of you and have seen none. But if you insist, please show us this data sent out by the evil Chinese govt about the J20. Operational ceiling, combat radius, climb rate, range of its radar, anything. Tell us about this propaganda you keep referring to.

Facts don't care about your feelings.

Aircraft are serialed, have ID numbers, show 20 J-20s with different numbers flying togather with WS-10s in airshows.


The J-20s max number you will see togather in pictures are 7-8 aircraft.
Serialed aircraft are around 20-30 aircraft, this is even known in Forums like Sinodefence.

In videos you will also see 7 to 9 fighters at the most.

The article was by Global times, chinas ultranationalistic mouth piece propaganda outlet, quoting even a communist outlet.


About things like weight or speed you can see it in airshows.

There are videos of Su-57 and F-22 doing maneouvres that requiere excess in thrust to weight ratio and light wing loading, this tell you with Al-31 pictures the likely weight.

3D parts while save money and weight, in some parts are not a maginc wonders, you can expect weight saving in the region of 700 kg at the most, since aircraft are not toys, they are stuffed with avionics, the bulkheads and wing spars requiere same physics in fighter aircraft regardless is J-20 or Su-57.

So an empty weight of 19000-20000 kg can be expected.

In china bots land reality and physics do not count.

In fact if J-20 was ultralight you could see it in aircraft like ARJ-21 or J-10 that are not sold internationally reflecting inferior performance or regularly intercepted by Japanese, Korean or Taiwanese fighters showing machines with similar performance to its peers.

Same in aviadarts in Russia where J-10s or JH-7 are seen


Conclusion China at the most has similar technologies to the USA, Russia or Europe.


So a similar weight is expected, the admission of Global times of Al-31 being used is easily proven by the fact serialed aircraft show Al-31 engines

 

[MiG-29SMT]

1. It's funny that you quoted an article citing Minnie Chan and claiming it to be gospel. Proves how much you know about the Chinese defence industry. In her latest article she claims J20 is using a new engine called WS25 according to her "sources"

How do you believe Minnie Chan's sources over actual pictures you can see with your own eyes?

2. It's funnier that you did not include the update to that article:

"
Updated July 14

Andreas Rupprecht, an expert on Chinese military aviation, contacted me on Twitter to express his skepticism regarding the South China Morning Post’s report regarding use of Russian engines with thrust-vector controls.

According to him, open source evidence points to domestic WS-10C turbofan engines being used in new production J-20s. The WS-10C has improved thrust, has a stealthier serrated nozzle, and presumably is more reliable than earlier WS-10 turbofans. However, it is not designed for thrust-vector control, unlike the WS-10B-3 TVC engine demonstrated on a J-10 fighter in 2018."

Dude, just admit you have no real evidence. You have made so many claims on this thread but you're still unable to prove any of it.

you quote Deino a guy who does not have insider information in few words a guy who has no connections with the Chinese aircraft industry nor speak Chinese

 

[MiG-29SMT]

This is the problem with making assumptions and believing them.

http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.com/p/gallery-i.html?m=1

Please look through this list of J11B and J16 serial numbers and corresponding images and tell me whether they are using WS10's or AL31 turbofans.

At this point I doubt you can tell the difference between the 2 engines, but all J11B's since batch 2 use WS10A's and every J16 in operation uses WS10B's. That's more than 300 operational airframes flying with Ws10 Variants in the PLAAF and PLANAF.

And before you claim its all propaganda, the JASDF, USAF and USN have all pictured these airframes flying with WS10 variants on numerous interceptions.

Credit to huitong for mapping every pictured serial number and detailing them on his site.

You keep underestimating the work done by Chinese military watchers but we've been following PLA developments for decades and have the evidence to back it up.

China bought Su-35 showing two realities J-11 with WS-10s are crap.

China claims Su-35 has inferior avionics, so no need to buy, inferior weapons, no need to buy, WS-10 already has TVC nozzles, however Su-35 has an engine of 14500kg afterburner thrust.

Tell me if WS-10 is so good why buy a fighter with inferior thrust? simple J-11 with WS-10 has no better thrust, how you can see, China uses Al-31s in J-20 bought Su-35s and most of J-10s use Al-31.

Bring the serialed J-10s with WS-10s and you will see, most J-10s and J-20s use Al-31s

 

[MiG-29SMT]

So now you can weigh the J20 with your eyes? How do you know the empty weight of the J20? Do you have the figures from the manufacturer or operator?

performance wise you can see slow turns in airshows, these shows thrust to weight ratio and wing loading.

Now consider the west uses technologies which are contemporary to J-20 and show better performance in F-22 or F-16s, and same is Eurofighter or Su-57, and Rafale

 

[MiG-29SMT]

So now you can weigh the J20 with your eyes? How do you know the empty weight of the J20? Do you have the figures from the manufacturer or operator?

Physics work in the same way in China or Russia or the USA, physics are basically universal.

this is F-35 being built, you can see, aircraft need access panels, have bulkheads, wing spars, need to have space for avionics, redundancy in systems to give you a simple example Su-27 uses 4 hydrolic actuators copies for each one of its actuators, this means you add weight, for safety.

Bulkheads are the skeleton of aircraft, they requiere to bear the loads in flight and carry the internal equipments weight.

what you see in Su-57 in manufacture, you will see it in J-20 or F-35 because of physics.

in your alternate reality you think physics do not exist or chemestry.

only in fuel you can calculate weight by having the engine specific fuel consumption, by looking at the structure of F-18E being built you can see the Super Hornet can not weight lighter that the know weight of F-18A, add F-18E has no internal weapons bays, so you can not expect J-20 to be lighter.

F-18E weighs 14,552 kg empty weight and has no internal weapons bays and it is smaller than J-20 and has a smaller nose radome, Su-27 weighs around 16380 kg empty weight and has no internal weapons bay.

F-22 is almost 20000kg empty weight
F-35 which is smaller weighs 13300 kg and is much smaller, has less internal weapons bays volume than J-20 and has less number of weapons bays, it is obvious J-20 in the lightest weight is 19000 kg, but it could go to 21000kg.

Use logic you will see why they need a 18000 kg thrust engine in order to have a 1.02 weight ratio with WS-15s the max weight should be around 37000kg for J-20.

WS-15 tells you by logic it is a 20000 kg empty weight machine by logic

 

[J20!]

"open source" once again indicates the use of PLAAF photographs being used by a "China follower" to make his own conclusions, and is meaningless. There is a good probability that the correction was issued by a guy directly or indirectly on CCP payroll at the behest of the PLAAF. Money talks, BS walks. And the Chinese Communist Party and the PLAAF are the masters of BS, along with their CCP bot pets.

China's J-20 fighter aircraft will stop using Russian engine - Defence View

Chinese social media have been talking about replacing the engine currently installed on the new generation of J-20 fighters for several days. will replace it with a modernized motor of its own production. “The Chinese WS-10C engine, a modified version of the WS-10 engine, is not inferior to the...

defenceview.in

This clearly indicates that the WS-10C will take at least a year to test before it can be used on the J-20, which means that the J-20 is still flying with Russian AL-31 engines. Multiple reports state that the J-20 used the WS-10 at some point early on. Now if the WS-10 was really so reliable, it would have become the permanent engine. Instead, the a decade later we hear reports that the J-20 "will" replace the Russian engine with a Chinese one. Will, will, will. People who have followed the PLAAF for over a decade "will" see a pattern emerging. A decade ago similar reports came out that the WS-10 "will be" replacing the Russian AL-31, because it is so much more powerful. So were they lying then, or are they lying now? It turned out the WS-10 only lasted for about 30 hours before needing to be replaced, so was too unreliable to be used on operational aircraft, so PLAAF continued to use Russian AL-31 engines right up to now.

It is much more likely that the PLAAF "will" continue to lie about having an operational WS-10C ready, just like it lied that it "will" have a WS-15 ready for the J-20, right before the WS-15 exploded. It is also much more likely that the PLAAF is using the appearance of WS-10C engines as leverage to get better technology engines from Russia, when the reality is that WS-10C is just as unreliable as previous WS-10 versions (30 hours before needing maintenance).

You're quoting articles that cite verbatim the same SCMP article by Minnie Chan.

The info in that article is so outdated it's sad to see you continuously reverting to it because you can't find any evidence to back up your many false claims about J20.

That article says "it will take at least a year to test" the WS10C on the J20, but the engine has been flying on purpose biult prototype 2021 since 2017:


That pic isn't "propaganda released by the PLAAF" , unless you're now claiming they own every amateur and pro photographer in the Chengdu region, including Jackson Bobo

As to your claims of the PLAAF releasing "lies" about the J20, please quote a few for our review. You keep avoiding my requests for proof.

Why would the PLAAF and CCP be so desperate to convince amateur military watchers on Indian Forums that WS10C is flying on the J20? Your conspiracy theory doesn't make sense. It's obvious that the party and operator are trying to limit any and all useful info on the J20.

It's like saying the Indian MOD is sending bots to Chinese forums to release information about INS Arhihant.

 

[J20!]

you quote Deino a guy who does not have insider information in few words a guy who has no connections with the Chinese aircraft industry nor speak Chinese

Deino has literally written several books on Chinese Military aircraft and has been cataloging airframe, serial numbers and deployments of said aircraft for decades.

Minnie Chan on the other hand has written proven falsehoods repeatedly then claimed to have "secret sources". At least Andreas has physical pictorial evidence to prove his assertions. He has even been cited by US DOD reports.

Minnie Cham is much like you and @johnq . Making claims with no actual evidence then making up conspiracy theories to support them.

If J20's are still being produced with AL31's, please post just 1 pic of a newly produced J20 with Russian engines post 2019. Just 1 photo from 2020 or even late 2019 showing a fresh J20 with AL31's