J20 Shock to PLAAF

[Flame Thrower]

@J20! On evading incoming missiles....for every missile, there is something called NEZ. Within the NEZ, it is almost impossible to dodge, even if super manoeuvrable plane like Su-35s might dodge the first missile, but will be hit by second missile(no energy left to dodge second one).

I bet you know that missiles glide to their target (most of their time) the boost phase of the missile is very low (around 20-25%) range. And most of the cases the NEZ is less than 50% of range.
Having multiple (2 in case of Aim 120D) will greatly increase the performance and NEZ of the missile. Meteor missile is altogether a different breed.

The range of the missile(and NEZ) also drops due to the altitude of the launch.

On AESA, I am wrong.....but there is no info available regarding the J-10C's AESA. All we get is the amount of TR modules in the AESA. It almost makes us feel like bigger version of KLJ-7A. Sure, we're amateurs after all. Now, if you have the official info i.e., Links please do post them. Else it is mystery AESA, where as another AESA is air cooled.... So much for the mystery AESA that If I remember correctly then KLJ-7A is a derivative of the mystery AESA. I wonder what made developers KLJ-7A go to air cooled version, I bet cost is not one of'em. If additional 2 million cost would make my fighter get better radar, thus better tracking and targeting distance, then I'd go for one. But then again, cooling the AESA Is the most difficult step in development of AESA radar.

Now coming to scenarios of hunting 10 4.5 gen fighters to the loss of 1 5th gen is kind vague scenario for me. These always had lots of questions left than any of it could answer or advertise 5th gen fighter capabilities....
In the Air to Air fight, we always Know of fire and forget capabilities where the terminal phase of the flight is guided by missiles radar which is always susceptible of jamming. For the sake of argument let's assume that even the terminal phase is guided by fighter radars in the 4.5 vs 5 the gen, what about other Passive sensors like MAWS. If the fighter is not in the NEZ of the missile, then MAWS warning is more than enough for fighter to do evasive manoeuvres to escape the missile. Now, coming to the IR sensors, they can even detect the missile launches( over 35k feet within 50km range). I bet you know that tail chase range for missile is far lower when compared to head on chase. Care to disagree till now!!?? Now coming to 10 4.5 gen kills vs 1 5th gen, no one mentions of the 4.5 gen sensors or the engagement ranges or how it happened. I suggest you to go through one of those 10 vs 1 kill scenario and start asking questions.....how they happened. When the BVR missiles have around 17% success rates while EW capabilities improved a lot. When both fighters come into WWR range, advantage of the stealth is lost. I would buy maybe 2:1/3:1 kill ratio for 4.5:5gen but 10:1 is definitely not possible. Yes, I am an amateur and maynot know everything, but I am yet to read a convincing scenario on 10:1 kills.

Oh and on rumors, I said that they might be rumors. Because the author had missed to many variables in the picture to consider it to be true.

I didn't deny that J-20 has that capabilities, but this article can't be a testimony of J-20 capabilities. I guess you can understand the difference.

 

[J20!]

It's clear that Mig 1.44 was the starting design of J-20. The Chinese simply incorporated stealth designed features and other improvements.

What's "clear" is that you have no supporting evidence for that claim other than that they are the only delta canard heavy weight fighters in existence. One day, J20 is a copy of the F22, the next its a copy of the much smaller F35, then its a copy of the Mig 1.44.

How can one be a copy of the other? Different aerodynamic profiles. If one is a copy of the other, how do you explain away the glaring differences in these designs? Look at your own pic mate.

 

[J20!]

@J20! On evading incoming missiles....for every missile, there is something called NEZ. Within the NEZ, it is almost impossible to dodge, even if super manoeuvrable plane like Su-35s might dodge the first missile, but will be hit by second missile(no energy left to dodge second one).

I bet you know that missiles glide to their target (most of their time) the boost phase of the missile is very low (around 20-25%) range. And most of the cases the NEZ is less than 50% of range.
Having multiple (2 in case of Aim 120D) will greatly increase the performance and NEZ of the missile. Meteor missile is altogether a different breed.

The range of the missile(and NEZ) also drops due to the altitude of the launch.

You are right on every count. The No Escape Zone of a missile is dependent on the launch altitude of the firing platform and the speed of the platform at launch. A higher altitude also guarantees potential energy in that an evading jet can always sacrifice altitude for more kinetic energy, ie speed. Fair enough.

However, that does not invalidate low altitude approaches in air-to-air combat. And does not guarantee that a maneuvering target will escape BVR missiles. The is still a significantly large NEZ even if the missile is launched at low altitude at subsonic speed.

Flying high and fast increases the very IR signature you mentioned earlier. Look down radar ranges are significantly shorter than look up ranges due to clutter.

A stealth aircraft approaching at sub mach 0.8 at a lower altitude than its target is always going to be harder to detect than the same aircraft flying high and fast. Either by radar or IR detection. If it worked for SU30MKI's against F15's do you believe it wouldn't work for an aircraft designed with a suppressed radar and IR signature?

On AESA, I am wrong.....but there is no info available regarding the J-10C's AESA. All we get is the amount of TR modules in the AESA. It almost makes us feel like bigger version of KLJ-7A. Sure, we're amateurs after all. Now, if you have the official info i.e., Links please do post them. Else it is mystery AESA, where as another AESA is air cooled.... So much for the mystery AESA that If I remember correctly then KLJ-7A is a derivative of the mystery AESA. I wonder what made developers KLJ-7A go to air cooled version, I bet cost is not one of'em. If additional 2 million cost would make my fighter get better radar, thus better tracking and targeting distance, then I'd go for one. But then again, cooling the AESA Is the most difficult step in development of AESA radar.

No. KLJ 7A is a development of the Pulse Doppler KLJ 7 on the JF17. This "Mystery AESA" is a development of the PESA on the J10B built by the 607 institute:

I've told others on this forum before, the PLAAF does not and has not disseminated official data on its fighter-borne AESA radars. We only get the occasional glimpses from lucky wall-climber/unofficial/amateur pics.

The only AESA we have actual official data on is the KLJ 7A which is for export and not installed on any PLA fighters. Its specifications were displayed at the Zhuhai airshow. On why it is air-cooled. Like I said earlier, making it air-cooled reduces complexity, size and weight. Allowing it to be fitted onto light weight fighters like the JF17 block III.

Now coming to scenarios of hunting 10 4.5 gen fighters to the loss of 1 5th gen is kind vague scenario for me. These always had lots of questions left than any of it could answer or advertise 5th gen fighter capabilities....
In the Air to Air fight, we always Know of fire and forget capabilities where the terminal phase of the flight is guided by missiles radar which is always susceptible of jamming. For the sake of argument let's assume that even the terminal phase is guided by fighter radars in the 4.5 vs 5 the gen, what about other Passive sensors like MAWS. If the fighter is not in the NEZ of the missile, then MAWS warning is more than enough for fighter to do evasive manoeuvres to escape the missile. Now, coming to the IR sensors, they can even detect the missile launches( over 35k feet within 50km range). I bet you know that tail chase range for missile is far lower when compared to head on chase. Care to disagree till now!!?? Now coming to 10 4.5 gen kills vs 1 5th gen, no one mentions of the 4.5 gen sensors or the engagement ranges or how it happened. I suggest you to go through one of those 10 vs 1 kill scenario and start asking questions.....how they happened. When the BVR missiles have around 17% success rates while EW capabilities improved a lot. When both fighters come into WWR range, advantage of the stealth is lost. I would buy maybe 2:1/3:1 kill ratio for 4.5:5gen but 10:1 is definitely not possible. Yes, I am an amateur and maynot know everything, but I am yet to read a convincing scenario on 10:1 kills.

A 10:1 ratio in stealth vs 4.5(3.5) generation fighters is actually quite conservative if we look at the results of engagements at Red Flag:

https://theaviationist.com/2017/02/...nce-with-a-201-kill-ratio-u-s-air-force-says/

Indeed, while early reports suggested a 15-1 kill ratio recent Air Force testimony by Lt. Gen. Jerry D. Harris, Vice Commander of Air Combat Command characterized the kill ratio as “20-1” meaning that, for one F-35A “lost” in simulated combat in a high threat environment that the aircraft destroyed 20 simulated enemy aircraft.

During the same testimony, U.S. Marine Lt. Gen. Jon M. Davis, Deputy Commandant for Aviation, related a 24-0 kill ratio for U.S. Marine F-35B aircraft during a different exercise.

Mind you, that is mostly BVR engagements. In WVR combat, there are reports of F16's, Rafales and Typhoons scoring kills against the F22 or F35.

Oh and on rumors, I said that they might be rumors. Because the author had missed to many variables in the picture to consider it to be true.

I didn't deny that J-20 has that capabilities, but this article can't be a testimony of J-20 capabilities. I guess you can understand the difference.

I don't really understand how a scenario of a pair of J20's downing more than half a dozen 4th and 4.5 gen fighters as well as the AEW&C aircraft providing over-watch does not validate the J20's air-to-air capabilities. Or how a J16 & J20 combo penetrating air-space defended by an S300 air defense system, AWACS over-watch, electronic warfare assets and J10B/C's does not demonstrate its value as a stealth aircraft and information node.

Either way, these are just rumors regarding the air-force exercises held last year. There is no official testimony or statement to verify these RUMORS. And even if they are true, no one outside of official circles has clear play-by-play details on the performance of each side of the simulations.

Its not often I get to discuss technical issues on the J20 without the nationalistic "J20 is junk" or "J20 is a copy" or "you're a 50 center" anthems getting in the way. I appreciate you keeping this discussion civil mate. *thumbs up*

 

[badguy2000]

It's clear that Mig 1.44 was the starting design of J-20. The Chinese simply incorporated stealth designed features and other improvements.

well,in fact,
it is clear that the design of wright brother is the starting one of j20.....
as you see,they both have wings.....

 

[aditya10r]

maybe you should not mention china remotely, or simply get rid of the China subforum.

Or get rid of CHINA TOTALLY.

 

[apoorv465]

Chinese did manage to seal F35 data. So they may have used some of these..

https://www.thehindu.com/news/international/f-35-stealth-fighter-data-stolen-in-australia-defence-hack/article19843818.ece/

 

[badguy2000]

Chinese did manage to seal F35 data. So they may have used some of these..

https://www.thehindu.com/news/international/f-35-stealth-fighter-data-stolen-in-australia-defence-hack/article19843818.ece/

what chinese steal is far beyond f35.


most to your fury, those shameless stupid chinese even steal lots of clever yankees' ideas before those ideas even appears in the smart brain of bright yankees .....such as quantum satellites,bike~sharing,alipay and so on.

how shameless chinese are!

 

[undeadmyrmidon]

what chinese steal is far beyond f35.


most to your fury, those shameless stupid chinese even steal lots of clever yankees' ideas before those ideas even appears in the smart brain of bright yankees .....such as quantum satellites,bike~sharing,alipay and so on.

how shameless chinese are!

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[Armand2REP]

what chinese steal is far beyond f35.


most to your fury, those shameless stupid chinese even steal lots of clever yankees' ideas before those ideas even appears in the smart brain of bright yankees .....such as quantum satellites,bike~sharing,alipay and so on.

how shameless chinese are!

That bike sharing turned out to be a great idea.

 

[badguy2000]

That bike sharing turned out to be a great idea.

so,you think it is a bad idea?
if india were auto society and you had to spending one hours looking for a parking lot near your office every day,
if you had to quarrel with your neighnours just for the last parking lot beside your aparment often,
if you were worried by the wrongly~parking fine bill polce post on your cars,
you would think bike~sharing is a perfect idea to save your ass and such ruins are peanuts.

 

[Armand2REP]

@badguy2000 If my goal was to build the Mt. Everest of bicycles, then it is a good idea. Only in China...

 

[badguy2000]

@badguy2000 If my goal was to build the Mt. Everest of bicycles, then it is a good idea. Only in China...

well,
it is not only in china,but also in uk and other countries.

 

[rockdog]

That bike sharing turned out to be a great idea.

@badguy2000, he is off topic, just leave him alone.

 

[Steven Rogers]

It's clear that Mig 1.44 was the starting design of J-20. The Chinese simply incorporated stealth designed features and other improvements.

What, simply adding stealth results something like F15SE not like complete stealth aircraft. And where did you got J20 copy of 1.44, from some stupid YouTube video or some stupid web article. From the design it is not same, 1.44 is a complete delta while J20 has a cranked delta design, look at the placement and design of Canards, thousands of mesh wire are involved in the computer design for a small change. Check from the front, check canopy and check those two vertical tailfins, does they copy paste 1.44, the air intake is complete different, the engines exhaust are planted so near to minimize infra red signature, 1.44 has nothing like that. It's like complaining Rafale, EFT and Gripen copied from each other.

Sent from my Aqua Ace II using Tapatalk

 

[asianobserve]

What, simply adding stealth results something like F15SE not like complete stealth aircraft. And where did you got J20 copy of 1.44, from some stupid YouTube video or some stupid web article. From the design it is not same, 1.44 is a complete delta while J20 has a cranked delta design, look at the placement and design of Canards, thousands of mesh wire are involved in the computer design for a small change. Check from the front, check canopy and check those two vertical tailfins, does they copy paste 1.44, the air intake is complete different, the engines exhaust are planted so near to minimize infra red signature, 1.44 has nothing like that. It's like complaining Rafale, EFT and Gripen copied from each other.

Sent from my Aqua Ace II using Tapatalk

From Reuters:

“It looks like they got access … to documents relating to the Mikoyan—the aircraft that the Ministry of Defense skipped over in its tender to create a stealth fighter,” he said, speaking on condition of anonymity.

He said it was not clear whether such a transfer of technology had been legal. Analysts say Russia’s assistance to the Chinese may help Moscow keep tabs on the rising military power’s defense capabilities of its eastern neighbor.

Independent analyst Adil Mukashev, who specializes in ties between Russia and China, suggested there had been a financial transaction.

“China bought the technology for parts, including the tail of the Mikoyan, for money,” he said.

Considering Russia is already providing engines for the J-20, this seems pretty plausible that Moscow gave China access to its losing fifth-gen design (as you all know, the Kremlin chose the Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA as its stealth fighter over the MiG). I'm still curious as to what's inside the J-20 with regards to its sensors and avionics and EW tools.

https://www.military.com/defensetech/2011/08/19/did-the-j-20-come-from-this-mig

 

[asianobserve]

Report: Russia sold China tech for J-20

For awhile there, everybody in the defense game had a theory about what role Russia may have played in China's development of the J-20. Did Moscow keep completely out of it to focus on its own T-50 development? Did China ... ah ... "borrow" ... plans or technologies from the Russians, they way it has from the United States? Or was this a straight-up business relationship, like back in the bad old days? And if so, did Russia initiate it, or did China?

According to a report by the Reuters news service, picked up by AvWeek, Russia may be pulsing out technologies and parts to China as part of a deliberate strategy to increase the number of fighters that could challenge the United States. And as the originator of key components in the J-20, Russia keeps an edge by knowing exactly what the fighter's capabilities and weaknesses are.

Here's how Reuters' Thomas Grove broke it down, from Moscow:

Experts say the fifth-generation J-20 fighter, which made its maiden flight in January during a visit of the U.S. defense secretary, could have its origins in the Mikoyan 1.44 stealth jet that never made it to the production line. A highly-placed source close to Russia’s defense industry said the similarities suggested Mikoyan technology had been passed into the hands of Chinese arms designers.

“It looks like they got access … to documents relating to the Mikoyan—the aircraft that the Ministry of Defense skipped over in its tender to create a stealth fighter,” he said, speaking on condition of anonymity. He said it was not clear whether such a transfer of technology had been legal. Analysts say Russia’s assistance to the Chinese may help Moscow keep tabs on the rising military power’s defense capabilities of its eastern neighbor.

Independent analyst Adil Mukashev, who specializes in ties between Russia and China, suggested there had been a financial transaction. “China bought the technology for parts, including the tail of the Mikoyan, for money,” he said.

Russia and China deny it, but the story is plausible, given that the Russians apparently never could make the Mikoyan 1.44 work as a challenger for the F-22. (To be fair, it was probably never meant to become a production aircraft.) If China asked, or Russia offered, to hand over their research and spares in exchange for cash on the barrelhead, it would've been a very tempting deal for both sides. Russia gets a payday and makes life a little scarier for the United States; China's aerospace industry gets another jump-start, and it makes life a little scarier for the United States.

But it doesn't answer key questions about the J-20, including whether China can build enough of its own high-quality jet engines for a full production run of the new stealthy fighters. And this story, if true, actually could provide another arrow in the quivers of J-20 skeptics: The Russians clearly never got the Mikoyan 1.44 where they wanted it. In fact, MiG entered it in the PAK FA competition, but as we were reminded again this week, Russian authorities opted for Sukhoi's T-50 instead. (Let's pause here to imagine Russian defense industry officials interjecting to talk about the "valuable lessons" they learned from the losing bid.) So if there were flaws in the 1.44's design, they may have been passed down to the J-20, and maybe it isn't an invincible expression of pure airpower after all.

Then again, the J-20 also clearly isn't a carbon copy of the 1.44. So if there were original imperfections, the Chinese may have buffed them out.

https://www.military.com/dodbuzz/2011/08/18/report-russia-sold-china-tech-for-j-20

 

[J20!]

From Reuters:

“It looks like they got access … to documents relating to the Mikoyan—the aircraft that the Ministry of Defense skipped over in its tender to create a stealth fighter,” he said, speaking on condition of anonymity.

He said it was not clear whether such a transfer of technology had been legal. Analysts say Russia’s assistance to the Chinese may help Moscow keep tabs on the rising military power’s defense capabilities of its eastern neighbor.

Independent analyst Adil Mukashev, who specializes in ties between Russia and China, suggested there had been a financial transaction.

“China bought the technology for parts, including the tail of the Mikoyan, for money,” he said.

Considering Russia is already providing engines for the J-20, this seems pretty plausible that Moscow gave China access to its losing fifth-gen design (as you all know, the Kremlin chose the Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA as its stealth fighter over the MiG). I'm still curious as to what's inside the J-20 with regards to its sensors and avionics and EW tools.

https://www.military.com/defensetech/2011/08/19/did-the-j-20-come-from-this-mig

Report: Russia sold China tech for J-20

For awhile there, everybody in the defense game had a theory about what role Russia may have played in China's development of the J-20. Did Moscow keep completely out of it to focus on its own T-50 development? Did China ... ah ... "borrow" ... plans or technologies from the Russians, they way it has from the United States? Or was this a straight-up business relationship, like back in the bad old days? And if so, did Russia initiate it, or did China?

According to a report by the Reuters news service, picked up by AvWeek, Russia may be pulsing out technologies and parts to China as part of a deliberate strategy to increase the number of fighters that could challenge the United States. And as the originator of key components in the J-20, Russia keeps an edge by knowing exactly what the fighter's capabilities and weaknesses are.

Here's how Reuters' Thomas Grove broke it down, from Moscow:

Experts say the fifth-generation J-20 fighter, which made its maiden flight in January during a visit of the U.S. defense secretary, could have its origins in the Mikoyan 1.44 stealth jet that never made it to the production line. A highly-placed source close to Russia’s defense industry said the similarities suggested Mikoyan technology had been passed into the hands of Chinese arms designers.

“It looks like they got access … to documents relating to the Mikoyan—the aircraft that the Ministry of Defense skipped over in its tender to create a stealth fighter,” he said, speaking on condition of anonymity. He said it was not clear whether such a transfer of technology had been legal. Analysts say Russia’s assistance to the Chinese may help Moscow keep tabs on the rising military power’s defense capabilities of its eastern neighbor.

Independent analyst Adil Mukashev, who specializes in ties between Russia and China, suggested there had been a financial transaction. “China bought the technology for parts, including the tail of the Mikoyan, for money,” he said.

Russia and China deny it, but the story is plausible, given that the Russians apparently never could make the Mikoyan 1.44 work as a challenger for the F-22. (To be fair, it was probably never meant to become a production aircraft.) If China asked, or Russia offered, to hand over their research and spares in exchange for cash on the barrelhead, it would've been a very tempting deal for both sides. Russia gets a payday and makes life a little scarier for the United States; China's aerospace industry gets another jump-start, and it makes life a little scarier for the United States.

But it doesn't answer key questions about the J-20, including whether China can build enough of its own high-quality jet engines for a full production run of the new stealthy fighters. And this story, if true, actually could provide another arrow in the quivers of J-20 skeptics: The Russians clearly never got the Mikoyan 1.44 where they wanted it. In fact, MiG entered it in the PAK FA competition, but as we were reminded again this week, Russian authorities opted for Sukhoi's T-50 instead. (Let's pause here to imagine Russian defense industry officials interjecting to talk about the "valuable lessons" they learned from the losing bid.) So if there were flaws in the 1.44's design, they may have been passed down to the J-20, and maybe it isn't an invincible expression of pure airpower after all.

Then again, the J-20 also clearly isn't a carbon copy of the 1.44. So if there were original imperfections, the Chinese may have buffed them out.

https://www.military.com/dodbuzz/2011/08/18/report-russia-sold-china-tech-for-j-20

Your 2011 sources are flimsy to the point of being laughable.

"May have"
"The story is plausible"
"could have its origins in the MiG 1.44"
"Independent analyst"
"Experts say"

No direct quotes from either the Russian government or Mikoyan, no direct quotes from CAC or the Chinese government. All based of of an "independent analyst".

https://www.rbth.com/articles/2011/...logy_transfer_to_china_for_j-20_fighter_12923

Russia has never transferred any stealth technology to China to assist it with its J-20 Black Eagle fifth-generation stealth fighter prototype, Russian plane maker MiG said.

"We are not delivering any equipment to China, and never have," MiG spokeswoman Yelena Fyodorova said

 

[Steven Rogers]

From Reuters:

“It looks like they got access … to documents relating to the Mikoyan—the aircraft that the Ministry of Defense skipped over in its tender to create a stealth fighter,” he said, speaking on condition of anonymity.

He said it was not clear whether such a transfer of technology had been legal. Analysts say Russia’s assistance to the Chinese may help Moscow keep tabs on the rising military power’s defense capabilities of its eastern neighbor.

Independent analyst Adil Mukashev, who specializes in ties between Russia and China, suggested there had been a financial transaction.

“China bought the technology for parts, including the tail of the Mikoyan, for money,” he said.

Considering Russia is already providing engines for the J-20, this seems pretty plausible that Moscow gave China access to its losing fifth-gen design (as you all know, the Kremlin chose the Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA as its stealth fighter over the MiG). I'm still curious as to what's inside the J-20 with regards to its sensors and avionics and EW tools.

https://www.military.com/defensetech/2011/08/19/did-the-j-20-come-from-this-mig

Did "he" clearly said that he sold everything related to Mig 1.44 to China, or China stole everything via a cyber attack.

Sent from my Aqua Ace II using Tapatalk

 

[asianobserve]

Your 2011 sources are flimsy to the point of being laughable.

"May have"
"The story is plausible"
"could have its origins in the MiG 1.44"
"Independent analyst"
"Experts say"

No direct quotes from either the Russian government or Mikoyan, no direct quotes from CAC or the Chinese government. All based of of an "independent analyst".

https://www.rbth.com/articles/2011/...logy_transfer_to_china_for_j-20_fighter_12923

Russia has never transferred any stealth technology to China to assist it with its J-20 Black Eagle fifth-generation stealth fighter prototype, Russian plane maker MiG said.

"We are not delivering any equipment to China, and never have," MiG spokeswoman Yelena Fyodorova said

Of course it's only discussed in the most probable tense because neither Mig nor CAC will admit to the informatiin sharing. But I always know that when there's smoke there's fire, I mean just look at the shape of the J-20. (Although that might be asking too much from Chinese internet warrior...)

 

[J20!]

Of course it's only discussed in the most probable tense because neither Mig nor CAC will admit to the informatiin sharing. But I always know that when there's smoke there's fire, I mean just look at the shape of the J-20. (Although that might be asking too much from Chinese internet warrior...)

I consider myself quite reasonable , actually. All you have to do is provide evidence for your assertions. All you can provide is "they have a similar shape".

Then Boeing and Sukhoi deny it, but the F15 and the Su27 must be some how related with "secret design transfers". Or the Tornado and the JH7. They "have the same shape ", right?

The J20 and the Mig1.44 prototype share the same canard delta configuration. Beyond that, their aerodynamic profiles are so different only a fanboy would suggest that one is a copy or an edit of the other.